Why is the Tridentine Mass popular?

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http://www.catholic-ew.org.uk/cathstats/1population.gif

{no stats applied 1981-1987,1992. Chart is Britain+Wales}
Regular NO mass attendence is collapsing. This chart is typical.
Yes, most remaining practicing Catholics attend the NO mass, BUT, unlike the Tradtional Mass era, 84+ % of catholics **do not attend any mass at all. **
**And that says it all. Polemics will not justify the near universal loss of faith during the VAT II era. No, it is not just a condition of society. The Evangelical, fundamentalist and even the Mormon (traditional teaching maintained sects) are growing and have been throughout the VAT II era. The # of people exiting the VAT II church for these sects is astounding compared to those converting to it. Upwards of 60%+ of new members in these sects are former catholics. yet this is more than 2 times the % of population that is catholic. Every mainline protestant sect has had similar but somewhat lesser declines in attendance compared to the protestantised VAT II church. VAT II church bent itself toward mimicing the mainline protestant sects. VAT II admits that. That did not bring prot’s into the Catholic faith. What it did do is give a great deal of credence to protestant errors, and implied that the RCC was wrong after all. **
Your (FRMRTRAD) discourse is interesting if not erodite, but you are preaching to an empty auditorium that use to be filled with practicing Catholics. Loss of attendence at Sunday mass is the crux issue. You will deny until you die that it is caused by VAT II, but regardless of what you believe caused it, you cannot deny that VAT II is not curing it, and that is the issue. The Trads are trying to address that issue as best they can, and more each day are listening to them.
Love ya,
WMI
 
Cardinal Ottaviani on the Definition of the New Order of the Mass:
Let us begin with the definition of the Mass given in No. 7 of the “Institutio Generalis” at the beginning of the second chapter on the Novus Ordo: “De structura Missae”:
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“The Lord’s Supper or Mass is a sacred meeting or assembly of the People of God, met together under the presidency of the priest, to celebrate the memorial of the Lord. Thus the promise of Christ, “where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them”, is eminently true of the local community in the Church (Mt. XVIII, 20)”.
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The definition of the Mass is thus limited to that of the “supper”, and this term is found constantly repeated (nos. 8, 48, 55d, 56). This supper is further characterised as an assembly presided over by the priest and held as a memorial of the Lord, recalling what He did on the first Maundy Thursday. None of this in the very least implies either the Real Presence, or the reality of sacrifice, or the Sacramental function of the consecrating priest, or the intrinsic value of the Eucharistic Sacrifice independently of the people’s presence. It does not, in a word, imply any of the essential dogmatic values of the Mass which together provide its true definition. Here, the deliberate omission of these dogmatic values amounts to their having been superseded and therefore, at least in practice, to their denial.
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Oh come on TNT, it’s the “New Springtime” and “New Pentacost”, are you soo blind as not to see it?

😃
 
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DominvsVobiscvm:
TNT:

I could go on, but you get the point.

Then again, you probably don’t . . .
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Actually I do, it’s called non-equivalence in most of those cases.
The vast majority of Trads are trying to stay in the the RCC. The VAT II church is making it more difficult each day as they wonder off into ever greater unheard of experiments, hypothoses and novelties. For, it is the Novus Ordo catholics that are quietly exiting the Church in droves, not the Trads.
 
"All the invocations of the pagans are hateful
to God because all their gods are devils"
~Saint Francis Xavier, in a letter to Saint Ignatius of Loyola, referring to the Hindoos while in India
Not so St Francis, you schismatical saint! For…

We all search for the truth. You NO Catholics too. Come on now…check out the truths of Hindu.

Here’s the hindu ritual using our santuary at Fatima:
Notice the Statue of Our Lady of Fatima in the background.

http://www.oltyn.com/HindFtm07.jpg

http://www.oltyn.com/HindFtm09.jpg
http://www.oltyn.com/HindFtm17.jpg

Maybe now YOU get the point. though I doubt it.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
 
TNT said:
Is a Picture worth a 100,000 words of Polemic?

One is just as pius, catechetic and God pleasing as the other! Anyone can see that…in full color.

http://www.bronx.latinmass.org/images/image79.gif

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http://cathinsight.com/kids mass.jpg

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Code: 
TNT!!   I must say:  I think I really like you!   Thanks for being so truthful saying it here like it really is.
I love those pictures of the “mass” and then THE MASS.
LOL This is soooooooooooooooo Great, I love it!
 
Fr. I suggest you read the PAPAL document: Motu Propio ecclesia dei" by JPII:
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You are giving the perfect example here of the Protestant mindset that many (certainly not all!) trads start using!

Just the other day you wrote (Good religious orders, post #40):
Popes must be obeyed in their ex-cathedra declarations, or in their magisterial teachings, or when speaking on faith and morals. However, the popes are NOT infallible when just giving their own personal (motu propio) opinions on issues
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For some reason you think we must obey without question (by the way I agree with this) Ecclesia Dei, but any other “motu proprio” statements we are free to ignore. This is quite similar to the protestants’ look at this verse but ignore this verse and we get to figure out what’s applicable to us.
 
All the essentials are there, for all to see!
**Long live **
pastor aeternus
If you can’t find an Altar girl, just grab a clown.
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N-Ordo Tabernacle. Bishop approved of course, which had to be approved by you-know-who…Looks great to me too.
Totum pole Tabernacle
http://66.46.231.130/canada/MarylakeShrine/Images/Gallery/images/church004.jpg

Our leader of course.


Certainly not this guy, today’s schismatic:

http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintp06.jpg
 
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Iohannes:
Mind as well post the entire Ottaviani Intervention on this board.
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Please mind as well the fact that the conspiracy theory has been very well debunked by FrmrTrad, I think, and the only source for it are two rad-Trad sites. It seems that everytime somebody contradicts rad-Trad theories that suddenly the person is old and feeble and taken advantage of. There is no proof of Cardinal Ottoviani being duped. There is concrete evidence that his original comments were based on rough drafts and that his comments were taken into account.
 
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misericordie:
TNT!! I must say: I think I really like you! Thanks for being so truthful saying it here like it really is.

I love those pictures of the “mass” and then THE MASS.
LOL This is soooooooooooooooo Great, I love it!
Click to expand...
Yes, but, I want to know where these pictures came from and what is really going on… I am just a skeptic when I see things like this. It look like something off on Fr Moderators site.
 
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TNT:
Our leader of course.

Certainly not this guy, today’s schismatic:
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You are really begining to offend me with your post… Our Church might not be perfect, but, it is the truth… Our focus is in the Eucharist… PERIOD. You can have clowns what ever and my focus will not ever change. The Eucharist!
 
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bear06:
You are giving the perfect example here of the Protestant mindset that many (certainly not all!) trads start using!

Just the other day you wrote (Good religious orders, post #40):

For some reason you think we must obey without question (by the way I agree with this) Ecclesia Dei, but any other “motu proprio” statements we are free to ignore. This is quite similar to the protestants’ look at this verse but ignore this verse and we get to figure out what’s applicable to us.
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Why is it you elevate Pope John Paul II, (I like him too don’t gt me wrong) above all his previous predecessors?? YOU not once answered my question posted to you over 14 times regarding my analogy: IF THE POPE WAS TO WRITE AND SAY HE LIKES HOCKEY, PINBALL, etc MUST ALL Catholics do so too??? I do agree that he is (I am only repeating myself on this 20 times until you finally answer) to be obeyed in Faith and Moral, ex-Cathedra, etc, and the MOTU propio Ecclesia Dei" CANNOT be compared to modernistic notions such as communion in the hand and liturgical dancers, When the Tridentine Mass is not a NEW modernistic novelty as other “disciplines” such as Altar girls(which you seem to favor out of blind “obedience”). Come on: stop the dancing: smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/1055.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/101.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_1_116.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_5_138.gif
 
TNT said:
All the essentials are there, for all to see!
**Long live **
pastor aeternus

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

N-Ordo Tabernacle. Bishop approved of course, which had to be approved by you-know-who…Looks great to me too.
Totum pole Tabernacle
http://66.46.231.130/canada/MarylakeShrine/Images/Gallery/images/church004.jpg

Our leader of course.


Certainly not this guy, today’s schismatic:

http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintp06.jpg
Click to expand...

Do you see that picture on the top? I’d like to inform you that this is MY diocese. Was this normal for all of our churches? Absolutely not. I’ve also got to tell you that a “Novus Ordo Type” took that picture. It was the “Novus Ordo Types” that launched the final campaign for an orthodox replacement for our bishop and won. Thankfully we were able to work with Traditionalists, one of who was a tremendous help. However, this only worked because the “Novus Ordo Types” were able to suffer through the constant attacks on the normative mass from these Trads. They even attacked our very pius normative mass said in Latin and complete with chant. The fact is that the “Novus Ordo Types” in my diocese don’t want ANY sort of schism. We don’t favor one schism over another like some of you seem to do.

This particular picture is not a picture of a norm or discipline in our diocese. No bishop, obedient to Rome or not obedient to Rome told this priest to do this so you can stop suggesting this is a product of PA. And I find it really hard to believe that you are slamming Pater Aerternus, a dogmatic constitution and VATICAN I document. It would seem that you will do anything to support your argument.

Answer this TNT, if you find the Pope showing his human side or him kissing the Koran, etc., etc., etc. so scandalous than why are you spreading it around?

Methinks your slip is showing! :confused:
 
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bear06:
Do you see that picture on the top? I’d like to inform you that this is MY diocese. Was this normal for all of our churches? Absolutely not. I’ve also got to tell you that a “Novus Ordo Type” took that picture. It was the “Novus Ordo Types” that launched the final campaign for an orthodox replacement for our bishop and won. Thankfully we were able to work with Traditionalists, one of who was a tremendous help. However, this only worked because the “Novus Ordo Types” were able to suffer through the constant attacks on the normative mass from these Trads. They even attacked our very pius normative mass said in Latin and complete with chant. The fact is that the “Novus Ordo Types” in my diocese don’t want ANY sort of schism. We don’t favor one schism over another like some of you seem to do.

This particular picture is not a picture of a norm or discipline in our diocese. No bishop, obedient to Rome or not obedient to Rome told this priest to do this so you can stop suggesting this is a product of PA. And I find it really hard to believe that you are slamming Pater Aerternus, a dogmatic constitution and VATICAN I document. It would seem that you will do anything to support your argument.

Answer this TNT, if you find the Pope showing his human side or him kissing the Koran, etc., etc., etc. so scandalous than why are you spreading it around?

Methinks your slip is showing! :confused:
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Thank you for your post… My experience is there is usually more to the story. What irritates me is this is pointed out to be an example of Norvus Ordo, yep, we all are like that. Actually, like you said we don’t agree with that…

I in the beginning said that I have a great respect for those who are traditional… I take it back with people who post examples like that.
 
**Notice:

This thread is closed; thanks to all who participated in the discussion. For the future, please do not post oversized photos within your post. Provide links instead. Thanks!** 🙂
 
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