Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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There are several assumptions I’ve seen pervading many (not all) of the posts on this thread…
  1. Work is defined as paid employment. Caring for a home and children does not count as work.
  2. All women have the calling to be employed outside the home for pay. Those who think they personally may be called to raise children at home are either fundamentalist crazies, brainless idiots, or oppressed by men/society/the Church/fill in the blank.
  3. Homemaking and child-raising are a waste of time and energy because women are the ones who have been doing it for centuries.
Personally I find it insulting to our ancestresses to insinuate that the vocation to which they devoted themselves for centures was/is worthless. The brand of “feminism” society has been pushing since the 1970s is based on the idea that only “men’s work” is worth doing, that the only way to find fulfillment is to do what men do. It’s every bit as sexist as the “patriarchal model” they claim to be challenging. The underlying assumption is the same.

If we really want men and women to be “equal”, we don’t need to further denigrate “women’s work” – that only perpetuates the myth of feminine “inferiority”. What we need to do is to celebrate “women’s work”, to accord to the homemaker the same respect that we do women CEO’s or senators. We don’t need to push all women out of their homes in order to “make them equal” – we need to value them equally wherever they carry out their individual calling.
 
If we really want men and women to be “equal”, we don’t need to further denigrate “women’s work” – that only perpetuates the myth of feminine “inferiority”. What we need to do is to celebrate “women’s work”, to accord to the homemaker the same respect that we do women CEO’s or senators. We don’t need to push all women out of their homes in order to “make them equal” – we need to value them equally wherever they carry out their individual calling.
I agree. Sometimes I wonder just how feminist is feminism because it seems to define equality for women based on the values, preferences and behaviors of men. So, women supposedly become equal when they can do everything a man can. I’m pretty sure men do not define their lives by the things women are able to do, so it’s hard to see the equality here.

My take on paid employment differs from yours and I think it depends to some extent on one’s background. In mine, women have almost always needed to work simply to make ends meet, so I do automatically consider ‘work’ as paid employment, as distinct from housework which was a shared responsibility mostly shouldered by women and older kids.
 
I agree. Sometimes I wonder just how feminist is feminism because it seems to define equality for women based on the values, preferences and behaviors of men. So, women supposedly become equal when they can do everything a man can. I’m pretty sure men do not define their lives by the things women are able to do, so it’s hard to see the equality here.

My take on paid employment differs from yours and I think it depends to some extent on one’s background. In mine, women have almost always needed to work simply to make ends meet, so I do automatically consider ‘work’ as paid employment, as distinct from housework which was a shared responsibility mostly shouldered by women and older kids.
Re: the first portion

That which feels slighted by immutable roles always tries to compare itself to the thing it says is oppressing it, thus damning itself in the process. Said entity then seeks to not only be like the “oppressor” entity, but better…

Sounds like the pattern and model of satan to me. 🤷

We see this in any movement. If we were to equate communism with matriarchy (Mother Russia!:winter:), we see the matriarchal system claiming it can outdo the patriarchy of a free-market system, not abused “capitalism” we see so rampantly today. It then gloriously fails while still checking the bloc 🤓. Eventually, to survive, it must, ironically, return to a capitalist system (patriarchal role), though more often than not it seeks to blend the two.

Patterns repeating… we know where they’re leading… which says from who they’re proceeding. http://www.constructiveanarchy.com/blog/11_15church lady-satan6.jpg

No comment on second as it is situational dependent.
 
Re: the first portion

That which feels slighted by immutable roles always tries to compare itself to the thing it says is oppressing it, thus damning itself in the process. Said entity then seeks to not only be like the “oppressor” entity, but better…

Sounds like the pattern and model of satan to me. 🤷

We see this in any movement. If we were to equate communism with matriarchy (Mother Russia!:winter:), we see the matriarchal system claiming it can outdo the patriarchy of a free-market system, not abused “capitalism” we see so rampantly today. It then gloriously fails while still checking the bloc 🤓. Eventually, to survive, it must, ironically, return to a capitalist system (patriarchal role), though more often than not it seeks to blend the two.

Patterns repeating… we know where they’re leading… which says from who they’re proceeding. http://www.constructiveanarchy.com/blog/11_15church lady-satan6.jpg

No comment on second as it is situational dependent.
I’m afraid I am either confused or in disagreement with much of what you have posted here. Many (I would even argue, most) social roles are not immutable. Having lived in different cultures, it seems to me that the question is more one of men defining what roles are desirable for themselves, rather than the role being innately masculine. Nature determines reproductive roles and impacts the gender assignment of tasks which rely on physical ability, the rest is determined by society and its culture.

I also disagree that masculine oppression is a matter of perception, as you seem to imply. The oppression of women is an almost universal phenomenon, predicted in Genesis and well-documented historically. My only argument is in the strategies which purport to address gender inequality. I think the end, gender equality, is a noble and necessary one. I simply question its common definition (equality does not = sameness, in my book) and the means by which feminism proposes to get us there. As for satan’s role in all of it, well, it seems like he’s the one who upset the apple cart to begin with.
 
I’m afraid I am either confused or in disagreement with much of what you have posted here. Many (I would even argue, most) social roles are not immutable. Having lived in different cultures, it seems to me that the question is more one of men defining what roles are desirable for themselves, rather than the role being innately masculine. Nature determines reproductive roles and impacts the gender assignment of tasks which rely on physical ability, the rest is determined by society and its culture.

I also disagree that masculine oppression is a matter of perception, as you seem to imply. The oppression of women is an almost universal phenomenon, predicted in Genesis and well-documented historically. My only argument is in the strategies which purport to address gender inequality. I think the end, gender equality, is a noble and necessary one. I simply question its common definition (equality does not = sameness, in my book) and the means by which feminism proposes to get us there. As for satan’s role in all of it, well, it seems like he’s the one who upset the apple cart to begin with.
This is so true especially the part about the oppression of women being universal and since Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden. We should never glorify any era like the 1950s like many posters seem to be doing. We have never gotten it right and should continue to strive for better.
 
This is so true especially the part about the oppression of women being universal and since Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden. We should never glorify any era like the 1950s like many posters seem to be doing. We have never gotten it right and should continue to strive for better.
Oh, I’m with you about the ‘glorious’ '50s. Wouldn’t go back even if I had a time machine, that’s for sure. 🙂
 
This is so true especially the part about the oppression of women being universal and since Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden. We should never glorify any era like the 1950s like many posters seem to be doing. We have never gotten it right and should continue to strive for better.
I will agree there are countries that truly oppress women but other than that, what do you consider oppression of women? Especially here in America. I know many women feel that oppression is staying home instead of being out working equal with men so I just wonder if there is more to the meaning than that.
 
This is so true especially the part about the oppression of women being universal and since Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden. We should never glorify any era like the 1950s like many posters seem to be doing. We have never gotten it right and should continue to strive for better.
Honestly, this is somewhat overstated don’t you think? “Oppression of women universal” Really? I mean REALLY? Where is this going on other than say Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia? Oh gosh I guess that sounds so Islamophobic…

At any rate I am truly curious what you think is oppression in this day and age?

As to the 50s, I am not sure anyone is glorifying that era other than to say that there was relative economic prosperity, life was much simpler then and that isn’t necessarily a bad thing. As to women being ‘oppressed’ in the 50s, my mother got a PhD in Biology and was able to work with top research scientests. No one told her she couldn’t be a scientist because she was a female. This was 50 years ago, not in the dark ages. I agree that there were expectations of women then and fewer women went to college or had professional careers. So there are options opened. OTOH we have far more irresponsible behavior, drugs, unwed mothers, men abandoning their families, broken families, abortions. Not everything “progressive” has been a positive. Each era had its advantages and its disadvantages. On balance though I don’t think women in this country have ever truly known OPPRESSION in comparison to the countries where religions other than Christianity and Judaism prevailed. We are all very blessed to be born in the USA
Lisa
 
Honestly, this is somewhat overstated don’t you think? “Oppression of women universal” Really? I mean REALLY? Where is this going on other than say Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia? Oh gosh I guess that sounds so Islamophobic…

At any rate I am truly curious what you think is oppression in this day and age?

As to the 50s, I am not sure anyone is glorifying that era other than to say that there was relative economic prosperity, life was much simpler then and that isn’t necessarily a bad thing. As to women being ‘oppressed’ in the 50s, my mother got a PhD in Biology and was able to work with top research scientests. No one told her she couldn’t be a scientist because she was a female. This was 50 years ago, not in the dark ages. I agree that there were expectations of women then and fewer women went to college or had professional careers. So there are options opened. OTOH we have far more irresponsible behavior, drugs, unwed mothers, men abandoning their families, broken families, abortions. Not everything “progressive” has been a positive. Each era had its advantages and its disadvantages. On balance though I don’t think women in this country have ever truly known OPPRESSION in comparison to the countries where religions other than Christianity and Judaism prevailed. We are all very blessed to be born in the USA
Lisa
Oppression of women to me, means men making the rules that women (not necessarily them) have to live by. It still exists, everywhere I can think of but to widely varying degrees and we all have different personal experiences to relate in that regard. It’s not simply about career opportunities by any means.

To me, it exists here mainly in form of social mores and ways of thinking (by both men AND women), the more overt forms of discrimination having improved dramatically over the years. Just in the last few days on this board, I have participated in several discussions that hinge on women and sex and have witnessed posters insulting women for their sexual behavior or putting the onus for moral sexual standards squarely on the shoulders of women. Compare this to times that a male politician is caught with his pants down - I have never seen any of them called words comparable to ‘slut’ or ‘prostitute’ and the arguments generally vary from “my party is more moral than your party” to “no one is perfect so we must forgive”.

Worse yet, in multiple discussions on mandatory ultrasound legislation, I have witnessed a considerable number of posters (of both sexes; gender prejudice is no respecter of one’s gender) use the old “she’s already agreeing to worse than that argument” to justify mandatory vaginal ultrasounds. For clarity, that mindset was once used to minimize sexual assaults on “loose” women based on the idea that since they were already consenting to sex with a string of partners, they should not object to one more.

I also cannot fail to mention the recent curious choice of legislators in selecting a panel of men to discuss contraceptive coverage for women! To me, that illustrated the old “do as I say but not as I do” strategy of the male figure in society, to a ‘t’. I’m not arguing in favor of the mandate, but simply questioning how it was that women couldn’t seem to be found to argue against it. Around that same time, we had a flashback to the not so enlightened past when one presidential candidate’s supporter made the infamous “aspirin between the knees” statement; I watched his apology afterward and it was clear even then the poor guy had no clue why his “joke” was so offensive.

We’ve come a long, long way but still have far to go. Violence (sexual and otherwise) against women is much less acceptable but still very widespread, and probably not given as much priority as it should be. Women victims of domestic violence are not routinely blamed or ignored as once used to be the case, but there are still attitudes which could use tweaking. The priority and resources we give to crimes such as sexual assault/abuse and human trafficking alone, is an indication of how much things have changed and how much they still need to.

Yes, there are less barriers now in education and careers but getting a degree or a post is only half the game. Even in politics, we could make considerable headway if people would focus less on what women candidates (and wives of public figures) look like rather than what they stand for. It’s instructive to remember that some countries with overtly oppressive restrictions on women, have been ***governed by a woman *** without impacting dramatically the lot of their female citizens: India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, come to mind.

The fault lies with both sexes, IMO. In some cultures with much more brutal forms of female oppression, it has been noted that women with positions of authority in the social hierarchy are, paradoxically, the very ones who perpetuate traditions that subjugate women to their male counterparts. Practices which are not just oppressive, but either reprehensible or criminal (or both), such as bride burning, female infanticide, female circumcision and forced marriage are partly or totally instigated and carried out by such women (mothers, in-laws, respected elders).

So, while all may not agree that psychological domination and overt cruelty both fit the definition of female oppression, I think they represent the opposite extremes of a cultural phenomenon which needs to be consigned to the ash heaps of history.
 
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I also cannot fail to mention the recent curious choice of legislators in selecting a panel of men to discuss contraceptive coverage for women! To me, that illustrated the old “do as I say but not as I do” strategy of the male figure in society, to a ‘t’. I’m not arguing in favor of the mandate, but simply questioning how it was that women couldn’t seem to be found to argue against it. .
This could probably be another thread but this is the part that gets me about that argument. Women were not asked to be the one to provide the contraception. Our Catholic faith tells us that men are called to be priests and bishops. They are our church leaders. They are the ones who are called to guide us and shepherd us. So if they are the ones being asked to provide the money for the contraception, why should they not be the ones to speak. Why should they not have the right to defend themselves. I am so grateful for all our wonderful priests and bishops who are speaking out against this and being the shepherds and men they are called to be.

As far as women speaking out against this mandate here is a letter you can sign to let your voice be known:

womenspeakforthemselves.com/

Here is an article showing the great response it has had. Your signature can be your voice:

ncregister.com/daily-news/women-to-obama-we-oppose-hhs-mandate/
 
This could probably be another thread but this is the part that gets me about that argument. Women were not asked to be the one to provide the contraception. Our Catholic faith tells us that men are called to be priests and bishops. They are our church leaders. They are the ones who are called to guide us and shepherd us. So if they are the ones being asked to provide the money for the contraception, why should they not be the ones to speak. Why should they not have the right to defend themselves. I am so grateful for all our wonderful priests and bishops who are speaking out against this and being the shepherds and men they are called to be.

As far as women speaking out against this mandate here is a letter you can sign to let your voice be known:

womenspeakforthemselves.com/

Here is an article showing the great response it has had. Your signature can be your voice:

ncregister.com/daily-news/women-to-obama-we-oppose-hhs-mandate/
Thank you for speaking the truth. The comment that no women were called to speak about “contraception” is a canard. Aside from the reality that there WERE women consulted, the issue was not contraception but the issue of religious liberty guarantied by the constitution.

As you said, maybe more appropriate on another thread but it’s important to squelch the lies pushed by the Left, the MSM and Obama

Lisa
 
This is so true especially the part about the oppression of women being universal and since Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden. We should never glorify any era like the 1950s like many posters seem to be doing. We have never gotten it right and should continue to strive for better.
This is an unfortunate stereotype. Historians today look at the 1950s as a highly unusual, remarkable blip of time.

You had lots of men leaving the war, and eager for a settled home life. You had women also sharing this desire.

Pent-up savings, due to war restrictions on the economy, left people with a great deal of savings. They could buy houses, and did so. And filled the houses with furniture and children.

Sometimes the factors come together like that, but usually not. But it’s most likely a mistake to typify a family by the 1950s example. 🙂
 
re: above comment about contraceptive decisionmaking. . . WHAT proof is there that the mere fact of their gender somehow affected their vote?

Prove it.

As a man, I’m tired of this groundless accusation.

I could ALSO note that a month ago, a prominent female physician working for the federal government unilaterally decided on expenditure for prostate cancer. . . did “MEN” start complaining about the injustice of a “FEMALE” making this choice?

C’mon here. 🙂
 
With respect to the original question about women working, ask yourself this:

Is our society better for it?

Are our children better? Our schools?

Or do we have overworked families stretching to make it go, day by day? More and more tension and pressure; fights and disputes within families. And barren neighborhoods and a less rich community life.
 
Oppression of women to me, means men making the rules that women (not necessarily them) have to live by. It still exists, everywhere I can think of but to widely varying degrees and we all have different personal experiences to relate in that regard. It’s not simply about career opportunities by any means.

To me, it exists here mainly in form of social mores and ways of thinking (by both men AND women), the more overt forms of discrimination having improved dramatically over the years. ".

Worse yet, in multiple discussions on mandatory ultrasound legislation,
For clarity, that mindset was once used to minimize sexual assaults on “loose” women based on the idea that since they were already consenting to sex with a string of partners, they should not object to one more.

I also cannot fail to mention the recent curious choice of legislators in selecting a panel of men to discuss contraceptive coverage for women! To me, that illustrated the old “do as I say but not as I do” strategy of the male figure in society, to a ‘t’. I’m not arguing in favor of the mandate, but simply questioning how it was that women

We’ve come a long, long way but still have far to go. Violence (sexual and otherwise) against women is much less acceptable but still very widespread, and probably not given as much priority as it should be. Women victims of domestic violence are not routinely blamed or ignored as once used to be the case, but there are still attitudes which could use tweaking. The priority and resources we give to crimes such as sexual assault/abuse and human trafficking alone, is an indication of how much things have changed and how much they still need to.

Yes, there are less barriers now in education and careers but getting a degree or a post is only half the game.

The fault lies with both sexes, IMO. In some cultures with much more brutal forms of female oppression, it has been noted that women with positions of authority in the social hierarchy are, paradoxically, the very ones who perpetuate traditions that subjugate women to their male counterparts. Practices which are not just oppressive, but either reprehensible or criminal (or both), such as bride burning, female infanticide, female circumcision and forced marriage are partly or totally instigated and carried out by such women (mothers, in-laws, respected elders).

So, while all may not agree that psychological domination and overt cruelty both fit the definition of female oppression, I think they represent the opposite extremes of a cultural phenomenon which needs to be consigned to the ash heaps of history.
Well I certainly agree that bride burning, female infanticide and female ‘circumcision’ should be relegated to the dustbin of history, the reality is that it’s not happening here other than an occasional nutjob who is bringing his 3rd World practices to the US. This myth that females are oppressed in America is IMO laughable. There are now more women in college and graduating than men. Women were far less impacted by the economic downturn than men. Women live longer than men. I dunno…seems like we have it pretty good here.

As to laws made by men that women must live under, please provide some evidence that this oppresses WOMEN. Aren’t laws equally applicable to both sexes? If I drive drunk, shoot someone or steal am I subject to a greater punishment than men? In contrast there are many laws that give women special privileges and rights…requiring companies to provide for breast feeding, pumping, pregnancy leave, lowered standards for physical ability in first responders, etc. Not saying there is anything wrong with accommodating women’s special nature and child bearing but quite honestly I think our society is very careful to protect women. And speaking of “women’s rights” look at the VICIOUSNESS that accompanies any infringement on a WOMAN’S (not men are not allowed to weigh in even if they are the father) the “right” to kill their unborn baby? Oh and women apparently have the “right” to engage in unlimited sexual behavior on our nickel or so says the law student called to testify on behalf of the HHS Mandate…IMO absolutely laughable. She should have been embarrassed to make such a statement. Absolutely ridiculous.

The ‘double standard’ with respect to women’s sexual activity is oppression? Really? You don’t think men are demeaned and punished for sexual indiscretions? Really? How many politicians have lost their careers over IMO idiotic behavior? Can we say Anthony Wiener? Herman Cain? The list is endless.

Honestly I’m sort of amazed by what you consider oppression. Please look around and see how much better off you are than your sisters overseas. I had a great deal of personal contact with our troops in both Iraq and Afghanistan. What they’ve said about those societies is sickening. I thank God every day I was born in America.

Lisa
 
This could probably be another thread but this is the part that gets me about that argument. Women were not asked to be the one to provide the contraception. Our Catholic faith tells us that men are called to be priests and bishops. They are our church leaders. They are the ones who are called to guide us and shepherd us. So if they are the ones being asked to provide the money for the contraception, why should they not be the ones to speak. Why should they not have the right to defend themselves. I am so grateful for all our wonderful priests and bishops who are speaking out against this and being the shepherds and men they are called to be.

As far as women speaking out against this mandate here is a letter you can sign to let your voice be known:

womenspeakforthemselves.com/

Here is an article showing the great response it has had. Your signature can be your voice:

ncregister.com/daily-news/women-to-obama-we-oppose-hhs-mandate/
There are two sides to the issue: employer and employee. No issue is one-sided. Besides, Church leaders represent the whole body of Christ - they would have no argument without the men AND women in every US congregation - therefore, women should have had a voice even from the employer standpoint.
 
Thank you for speaking the truth. The comment that no women were called to speak about “contraception” is a canard. Aside from the reality that there WERE women consulted, the issue was not contraception but the issue of religious liberty guarantied by the constitution.

As you said, maybe more appropriate on another thread but it’s important to squelch the lies pushed by the Left, the MSM and Obama

Lisa
Sorry, I don’t see it that way. Religious liberty is NOT a preserve of men; women make up the Church as much as men do and I know enough women (me included) who do not use the Pill.
 
re: above comment about contraceptive decisionmaking. . . WHAT proof is there that the mere fact of their gender somehow affected their vote?

Prove it.

As a man, I’m tired of this groundless accusation.

I could ALSO note that a month ago, a prominent female physician working for the federal government unilaterally decided on expenditure for prostate cancer. . . did “MEN” start complaining about the injustice of a “FEMALE” making this choice?

C’mon here. 🙂
It’s not about decision-making it’s about representation of both gender’s viewpoints. As to the prostate cancer decision, you would have a complaint if the public’s (name removed by moderator)ut had been solicited and only women were selected to have an (name removed by moderator)ut.
 
There are two sides to the issue: employer and employee. No issue is one-sided. Besides, Church leaders represent the whole body of Christ - they would have no argument without the men AND women in every US congregation - therefore, women should have had a voice even from the employer standpoint.
Please check further. There WERE women consulted. Check the link and also there was an article in response to “where were the women?”

This was a group of religious leaders and like it or not most religious leaders are males.

BTW are you aware of the make up of the group that discussed the HHS Mandate with Obama? Were there any men? Were there any religious leaders involved? You might be surprised that the panel was not “balanced.” Sebelius admitted that they never even considered the religious liberty or conscious protection. That’s what happens when you get females who are the head of Planned Parenthood and other pro abortion groups to make up such panels. An echo chamber.

Lisa
 
It’s not about decision-making it’s about representation of both gender’s viewpoints. As to the prostate cancer decision, you would have a complaint if the public’s (name removed by moderator)ut had been solicited and only women were selected to have an (name removed by moderator)ut.
Is religious liberty necessarily a gender specific issue? Really? You seem to have fallen into the trap of thinking the issue was contraception. It wasn’t.
Lisa
 
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