Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

[seekerz]

Sorry Seeker, but I believe you to be wrong. I understand what Lisa is trying to say. The issue at large is a religious issue, the right of religious freedom, not an issue on contraception or anything else. Since it is a religious issue, it should be handled by our religious leaders. Our religious leaders DO NOT include nuns. Our religious leaders are our Bishops. They do not need to include anyone else. Why would they need the opinions of any particular gender?

You keep getting hung up on “gender” but what I think you should do is forget about the fact that our Bishops are male and not female. Just recognize them as our religious leaders, the ones who are qualified and have the authority to represent all of the Church (both male and female) in religious matters. Bringing gender into the equation is only playing the game of the opposition who want to appeal to the masses. They want people to think it is an issue of gender because they know they can’t win pushing a religious, strictly genderless, issue and have a far better chance of swaying opinion with their current strategy. I hope that clarifies it.

It’s okay to disagree. Which is why those who see this as a women’s issue (whether for or against contraception) have as much of a right to be heard. Even if it were strictly a religious issue, the men on that panel were not only Catholics (I do believe we have female bishops now in other congregations) and simply being a religious issue doesn’t automatically rule out the voices of laity. However it is spun, it was biased against airing women’s voices - that’s just a fact. And the reason I’m “hung up on gender” is because that is the question we were addressing: women’s equality.

 

[BRZ]

It’s okay to disagree. Which is why those who see this as a women’s issue (whether for or against contraception) have as much of a right to be heard. Even if it were strictly a religious issue, the men on that panel were not only Catholics (I do believe we have female bishops now in other congregations) and simply being a religious issue doesn’t automatically rule out the voices of laity. However it is spun, it was biased against airing women’s voices - that’s just a fact. And the reason I’m “hung up on gender” is because that is the question we were addressing: women’s equality.

Well it seems to me you are discussing two different issues then because if you believe that what the Church is trying to do is related to “women’s equality” you are just plain wrong. I am not commenting on other issues in this thread but strictly speaking that particular situation you described. Having our Catholic leaders represent the Church in a religious matter has nothing to do with “Women’s equality” and everything to do with “Religious freedom”. These are two separate issues.

Whether or not other congregations, meaning other religions, have women Bishops or different structures of authority is not relevant. Only the Catholic Church’s opinion is relevant in my eyes because only the Catholic Church teaches the absolute truth in this matter and in all matters. That doesn’t mean to say there isn’t aspects of the truth in other places but the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth and no other opinion is necessary.

As a matter of fact I have no idea why you even brought up other religions being on the panel. So what? It doesn’t change the fact that this particular issue is not a gender issue. The fact that you can’t get past that, in my opinion, is a serious flaw in your logic. You are making it out to be something it is not and I hope you can come to understand this.

I have every respect for women. My wife is very important to me and Mary is my absolute inspiration, my guide and my benefactor. I believe women have something to offer which no man can give and my opinions may be considered to be outdated and old by those who consider themselves to be modern feminists at least in the mainstream of society.

As far as the woman working and a man staying home, well I would say consider this. Yes, it is something that is a possibility and certainly not everyone is the same but generally speaking, I believe that women are much better suited to being at home with the children than men. I believed this can even be shown scientifically as women have much higher levels of certain hormones and such which are most beneficial for helping them develop a closeness, relationship and appreciation for their child on another level then a man can achieve. This isn’t to say that men can’t be close, develop relationships or appreciate children, however we lack the same hormones and such which greatly enhance these aspects. I often hear comments to this effect with some of my co workers, specifically ones who deal with special education because a lot of these children have emotional or hormonal issues and such. The difference between male and female hormones is a significant difference and does affect the mental and emotional state of human beings which does relegate us to certain aspects of life which we are best suited, but not forced, into. Also, our brains develop in certain ways that make both genders best suited in different areas. There are always exceptions to the rule and I speak in generalizations but those exceptions are very few in numbers.

Another thing, someone was mentioning that it was a modern phenomenon that families were “well off” enough that women could stay home rather than work and this is a completely false and ridiculous statement. Throughout almost the entirety of history, women have stayed at home to take care of the house and children. This DOES NOT mean they did not do a significant amount of work. Take our country for example, when our country was a colony and then a country, women who were married gave up their jobs, careers or whatever and took care of the home. This included things like churning butter, cleaning, cooking, etc. Yes, on a farm, the wife would most likely help the husband with farm chores, as well as the children but that was because the work was at home as farms were where the families worked and lived. Education was limited though for women, especially in rural areas. I teach American history in public school so I am very familiar with this topic.

 

[seekerz]

Well it seems to me you are discussing two different issues then because if you believe that what the Church is trying to do is related to “women’s equality” you are just plain wrong. I am not commenting on other issues in this thread but strictly speaking that particular situation you described. Having our Catholic leaders represent the Church in a religious matter has nothing to do with “Women’s equality” and everything to do with “Religious freedom”. These are two separate issues.

Whether or not other congregations, meaning other religions, have women Bishops or different structures of authority is not relevant. Only the Catholic Church’s opinion is relevant in my eyes because only the Catholic Church teaches the absolute truth in this matter and in all matters. That doesn’t mean to say there isn’t aspects of the truth in other places but the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth and no other opinion is necessary.

As a matter of fact I have no idea why you even brought up other religions being on the panel. So what? It doesn’t change the fact that this particular issue is not a gender issue. The fact that you can’t get past that, in my opinion, is a serious flaw in your logic. You are making it out to be something it is not and I hope you can come to understand this.

I have every respect for women. My wife is very important to me and Mary is my absolute inspiration, my guide and my benefactor. I believe women have something to offer which no man can give and my opinions may be considered to be outdated and old by those who consider themselves to be modern feminists at least in the mainstream of society.

As far as the woman working and a man staying home, well I would say consider this. Yes, it is something that is a possibility and certainly not everyone is the same but generally speaking, I believe that women are much better suited to being at home with the children than men. I believed this can even be shown scientifically as women have much higher levels of certain hormones and such which are most beneficial for helping them develop a closeness, relationship and appreciation for their child on another level then a man can achieve. This isn’t to say that men can’t be close, develop relationships or appreciate children, however we lack the same hormones and such which greatly enhance these aspects. I often hear comments to this effect with some of my co workers, specifically ones who deal with special education because a lot of these children have emotional or hormonal issues and such. The difference between male and female hormones is a significant difference and does affect the mental and emotional state of human beings which does relegate us to certain aspects of life which we are best suited, but not forced, into. Also, our brains develop in certain ways that make both genders best suited in different areas. There are always exceptions to the rule and I speak in generalizations but those exceptions are very few in numbers.

Another thing, someone was mentioning that it was a modern phenomenon that families were “well off” enough that women could stay home rather than work and this is a completely false and ridiculous statement. Throughout almost the entirety of history, women have stayed at home to take care of the house and children. This DOES NOT mean they did not do a significant amount of work. Take our country for example, when our country was a colony and then a country, women who were married gave up their jobs, careers or whatever and took care of the home. This included things like churning butter, cleaning, cooking, etc. Yes, on a farm, the wife would most likely help the husband with farm chores, as well as the children but that was because the work was at home as farms were where the families worked and lived. Education was limited though for women, especially in rural areas. I teach American history in public school so I am very familiar with this topic.

The history of all countries is not the same, so that person’s perspective may be different from yours. Nevertheless I respect your viewpoints and don’t disagree with much of what you say but if you go back you will see that I used that panel’s composition as an example of gender inequality and nothing you have said here succeeds in convincing me otherwise. Whatever the nature of the topic, unless it in some way specifically affects men, women should have been proportionally represented. This male dominance happens in other spheres, the panel was just a recent, much discussed, example.

I read scholarly articles very frequently and that is one of the phenomena I encounter. In most cases, unless the particular area of study predominantly features women, the viewpoints put forward as normal and usual or standard ways of acting or thinking, are predominantly Western and male. Western, to a certain extent I can understand, since that is the background of most scholars I read. Even male would be understandable if the researchers are predominantly male.

The problem I have is the extension of these norms of thought or behavior to the whole of society as the standard or universal or ‘best’ way of thinking or doing. The only answer I can see, is to include more voices of people who are not considered to define that male-perspective ‘norm’. I think this is as necessary in the legislature as it is in academia.

That is why I think, regardless of the topic, but particularly because the issue was impacting women, women’s voices needed to be adequately represented. Defining them out of the debate by making it an issue exclusively for religious leaders, simply does not suffice because in any event, not all religious leaders are men.

 

[BRZ]

The history of all countries is not the same, so that person’s perspective may be different from yours. Nevertheless I respect your viewpoints and don’t disagree with much of what you say but if you go back you will see that I used that panel’s composition as an example of gender inequality and nothing you have said here succeeds in convincing me otherwise. Whatever the nature of the topic, unless it in some way specifically affects men, women should have been proportionally represented. This male dominance happens in other spheres, the panel was just a recent, much discussed, example.

I read scholarly articles very frequently and that is one of the phenomena I encounter. In most cases, unless the particular area of study predominantly features women, the viewpoints put forward as normal and usual or standard ways of acting or thinking, are predominantly Western and male. Western, to a certain extent I can understand, since that is the background of most scholars I read. Even male would be understandable if the researchers are predominantly male.

The problem I have is the extension of these norms of thought or behavior to the whole of society as the standard or universal or ‘best’ way of thinking or doing. The only answer I can see, is to include more voices of people who are not considered to define that male-perspective ‘norm’. I think this is as necessary in the legislature as it is in academia.

That is why I think, regardless of the topic, but particularly because the issue was impacting women, women’s voices needed to be adequately represented. Defining them out of the debate by making it an issue exclusively for religious leaders, simply does not suffice because in any event, not all religious leaders are men.

I don’t understand what you are trying to say. How is this an issue that impacts women? What issue are you talking about? Are you talking about contraception? This is something which is not about women but about all people (although there are more varied products on the market for women than men). If this is the issue you are talking about this is something which is not in anyway beneficial to women, or men and that means physically, spiritually or mentally. So are you disagreeing with the Church on it’s stance that contraception is a grave sin, and for Catholics most likely a mortal sin? If so, than I would seriously hope and pray that you consider your words because you are in direct opposition to the teaching of the Church. If this is not the case and you are in line with Church teachings, I can’t fathom why you would have any objections here.

Follow this line of logic. If you agree that Contraception is wrong and no one should use it, than the issue of this is already settled and needs no further discussion whether by man or women. So why would it matter if women were on a panel speaking to the government about how the HHS mandate does not consider religious freedom? The issue of contraception is already settled. It is an intrinsically moral evil. The issue being discussed here is if the government is allowed to force religions to supply something which they believe is morally wrong, again an argument best suited to our religious leaders. If other religious groups have women who are in a position of authority, again I say it is irrelevant to the discussion. How they choose their representatives is not something any of us are privy too and for all I know, there is a good reason for it. If they didn’t pick a female to represent them out of some kind of gender bias, well then that is another issue, or perhaps they chose their representatives based on positions held in their churches, you and I do not know. What we do know, though, is that the leaders of our church are men so of course men are going to be representing the Catholic Church, it is as simple as that and should not be looked into any further.

Now if you are talking about the issue of abortion, well abortion is not an issue of gender, it is an issue of murder. No one should be allowed to murder their child, whether male or female.

The only other issue I can think of here is if you believe this to be a matter of “women’s health”. If that is the case then again I say to you, that you are just buying into what Obama and his supporters are saying on this issue. This is not a matter of “women’s health” and I can’t for the life of me see how contraception and abortion is a matter of women’s health at all. Please explain to me how these things are considered “women’s health” issues and how they are in anyway beneficial to women. If this is what you are saying then again, you are opposing the teachings of the Catholic Church because this is not what the Catholic Church believes on the issue. They do not believe in any way that this is a matter of “women’s health”.

 

[seekerz]

I don’t understand what you are trying to say. How is this an issue that impacts women? What issue are you talking about? Are you talking about contraception? This is something which is not about women but about all people (although there are more varied products on the market for women than men). If this is the issue you are talking about this is something which is not in anyway beneficial to women, or men and that means physically, spiritually or mentally. So are you disagreeing with the Church on it’s stance that contraception is a grave sin, and for Catholics most likely a mortal sin? If so, than I would seriously hope and pray that you consider your words because you are in direct opposition to the teaching of the Church. If this is not the case and you are in line with Church teachings, I can’t fathom why you would have any objections here.

Follow this line of logic. If you agree that Contraception is wrong and no one should use it, than the issue of this is already settled and needs no further discussion whether by man or women. So why would it matter if women were on a panel speaking to the government about how the HHS mandate does not consider religious freedom? The issue of contraception is already settled. It is an intrinsically moral evil. The issue being discussed here is if the government is allowed to force religions to supply something which they believe is morally wrong, again an argument best suited to our religious leaders. If other religious groups have women who are in a position of authority, again I say it is irrelevant to the discussion. How they choose their representatives is not something any of us are privy too and for all I know, there is a good reason for it. If they didn’t pick a female to represent them out of some kind of gender bias, well then that is another issue, or perhaps they chose their representatives based on positions held in their churches, you and I do not know. What we do know, though, is that the leaders of our church are men so of course men are going to be representing the Catholic Church, it is as simple as that and should not be looked into any further.

Now if you are talking about the issue of abortion, well abortion is not an issue of gender, it is an issue of murder. No one should be allowed to murder their child, whether male or female.

The only other issue I can think of here is if you believe this to be a matter of “women’s health”. If that is the case then again I say to you, that you are just buying into what Obama and his supporters are saying on this issue. This is not a matter of “women’s health” and I can’t for the life of me see how contraception and abortion is a matter of women’s health at all. Please explain to me how these things are considered “women’s health” issues and how they are in anyway beneficial to women. If this is what you are saying then again, you are opposing the teachings of the Catholic Church because this is not what the Catholic Church believes on the issue. They do not believe in any way that this is a matter of “women’s health”.

You keep insisting that this does not affect women: how so? Do they not work for Catholic employers? Do they not administer Catholic institutions? Even if they did none of these things, do they not exercise religious rights or lead religious congregations? Do they not also live in these United States and vote in elections?

Again, it is the not the substance of the argument (women’s health or religious rights) that interests me at the moment. As I said before, if they were discussing the price or eggs, there should have been proportional representation.

 

[BRZ]

You keep insisting that this does not affect women: how so? Do they not work for Catholic employers? Do they not administer Catholic institutions? Even if they did none of these things, do they not exercise religious rights or lead religious congregations? Do they not also live in these United States and vote in elections?

Again, it is the not the substance of the argument (women’s health or religious rights) that interests me at the moment. As I said before, if they were discussing the price or eggs, there should have been proportional representation.

The fact that women work for Catholic institutions has ABSOLUTELY no bearing on whether or not contraception should be provided. Again, you prove your logic false. So because there are women in catholic institutions and women employed by Catholics, Catholic institutions should provide something which is a MORAL EVIL? Is this what you are trying to say? THERE IS NO DISCUSSION TO BE HAD HERE! I type that in caps not to yell but for emphasis. The fact that contraception is EVIL is a unquestionable truth taught by the Catholic Church which can not be argued or discussed in any way. It is evil and therefore CAN NOT be provided by those who consider themselves Catholics, nor is it allowed to be used by Catholics. What discussion is necessary here? Why do we need to get men and women together to discuss this?

Whether women vote in elections, whether women are part of religious organizations, whether women live in this country or any other country is irrelevant to the argument at hand and I wish I could just get through that brick wall of yours. There is ONLY ONE truth. There can be only one truth. That truth has already been defined and is not going to change. It is not necessary for the Catholic Church to have had women present or part of the conversation because there is nothing to discuss. What is there to discuss? Contraception is wrong and if the Church is forced to provide it, I guarantee, based on the support of every American Bishop, that the Catholic Church will not be partaking of this and will be fighting it to the last. Women are more than welcome to be a part of the fight, to lead groups who fight on behalf of the Church, who defend the rights of the Church in the political sphere, etc. There is plenty of room for the involvement of both women and men of the laity and I hope this will be the case but at that point in time, it was not necessary to include anyone but the leaders of our Church.

Again I say, I can’t speak for other churches and their choices and I only repeat what the leaders of our Church have said.

 

[seekerz]

The fact that women work for Catholic institutions has ABSOLUTELY no bearing on whether or not contraception should be provided. Again, you prove your logic false. So because there are women in catholic institutions and women employed by Catholics, Catholic institutions should provide something which is a MORAL EVIL? Is this what you are trying to say? THERE IS NO DISCUSSION TO BE HAD HERE! I type that in caps not to yell but for emphasis. The fact that contraception is EVIL is a unquestionable truth taught by the Catholic Church which can not be argued or discussed in any way. It is evil and therefore CAN NOT be provided by those who consider themselves Catholics, nor is it allowed to be used by Catholics. What discussion is necessary here? Why do we need to get men and women together to discuss this?

Whether women vote in elections, whether women are part of religious organizations, whether women live in this country or any other country is irrelevant to the argument at hand and I wish I could just get through that brick wall of yours. There is ONLY ONE truth. There can be only one truth. That truth has already been defined and is not going to change. It is not necessary for the Catholic Church to have had women present or part of the conversation because there is nothing to discuss. What is there to discuss? Contraception is wrong and if the Church is forced to provide it, I guarantee, based on the support of every American Bishop, that the Catholic Church will not be partaking of this and will be fighting it to the last. Women are more than welcome to be a part of the fight, to lead groups who fight on behalf of the Church, who defend the rights of the Church in the political sphere, etc. There is plenty of room for the involvement of both women and men of the laity and I hope this will be the case but at that point in time, it was not necessary to include anyone but the leaders of our Church.

Again I say, I can’t speak for other churches and their choices and I only repeat what the leaders of our Church have said.

Where are you getting those words you are putting into my mouth? I am not the enemy but if you wish to see me that way, at least refrain from misrepresenting my arguments. I’ve been subjected to arbitrary opposition before, so it would be nothing new.

I am not talking about the morality of contraception but even if I were, all the caps on your keyboard could not stifle my views or substitute for them. You are shouting up the wrong tree.

BTW, the last time I checked, legislative bodies were not religious institutions and women had an equal right to be heard there. Just so we’re clear on the facts.

P.S. And just to be perfectly clear, I am not criticizing the Church, I have been, from the get-go, criticizing the composition of the panel.

 

[LucyLight]

I will agree there are countries that truly oppress women but other than that, what do you consider oppression of women? Especially here in America. I know many women feel that oppression is staying home instead of being out working equal with men so I just wonder if there is more to the meaning than that.

I find this stuff depressing and I really hate talking about it but since you asked.

Modern sexism can be more subtle and a lot of it has to do with the acceptance of things that are feminine.Traditional female characteristics and roles are seen as less than(eg. stay at home mom) and traditional male characteristics and roles are seen as superior.

Another example is how females are seen in the media and in literature. This isn’t the best example but hopefully it will illustrate my point. If a female is the main character on a tv show that show is considered a women’s or girl’s show. However, if a male is the main character its a show for everyone. I think this is more obvious in literature. Look at the Lord of the Rings all of the main characters are male, however, this is not considered a triology just for guys. If however, you had a book and every main character was female there is no way that boys would read it. You see this in sports as well, womens sports just aren’t watched. I do think that women are to blame for this as well as they seem to hold the same attitudes that men have toward women.

The more obvious ones probably don’t need to be said but just in case…

Women being seen as one dimensional sex objects. An example of this would be how mainstream the porn industry is. Women in the video games a lot of boys play are ridiculously sexualized (I’d inclde a picture but I might get banned). Another example is the criticism of female politicians and public figures based on their looks.

There has never been a female president. Gender wage gap or male-female income disparity. U.S. census bureau in 2009 had women making 77% as males. The best its ever been. Domestic violence; the U.S. dept of Justice reported from 1998 to 2002 that 84% of spouse abuse victims were female and males were 83% of spouse murderers. Gender based abortions favoring boys. This might not as bad in America, but whose counting?

These are just modern day examples which people seem to be debating. Women have been oppressed since Genesis and its been universal it didn’t just stop 50 years ago. Hope this is helpful.

 

[BRZ]

Where are you getting those words you are putting into my mouth? I am not the enemy but if you wish to see me that way, at least refrain from misrepresenting my arguments. I’ve been subjected to arbitrary opposition before, so it would be nothing new.

I am not talking about the morality of contraception but even if I were, all the caps on your keyboard could not stifle my views or substitute for them. You are shouting up the wrong tree.

BTW, the last time I checked, legislative bodies were not religious institutions and women had an equal right to be heard there. Just so we’re clear on the facts.

P.S. And just to be perfectly clear, I am not criticizing the Church, I have been, from the get-go, criticizing the composition of the panel.

No words were put into your mouth by me. You have an issue with selective reading or you just plain misunderstood my whole point.

In case you missed it, I was asking you questions and trying to determine what it is you were saying. Since this is an online forum and I can’t determine quickly what you were trying to say with your comments, I was trying to determine the different issues you might be talking about. I will assume that you just didn’t catch my meaning but your comment is incorrect on me putting words in your mouth.

Either way, you are completely missing the issue here and I believe that most can see that. Being self reflective is very important and we should all take a step back and try to determine whether we might be wrong on an issue and I hope you will think about it. I will trust that the leaders of our Church know what they need or do not need and that what they did was the appropriate response to the issue.

 

[LisaA]

Modern sexism can be more subtle and a lot of it has to do with the acceptance of things that are feminine.Traditional female characteristics and roles are seen as less than(eg. stay at home mom) and traditional male characteristics and roles are seen as superior.

You see this in sports as well, womens sports just aren’t watched. I do think that women are to blame for this as well as they seem to hold the same attitudes that men have toward women.

The more obvious ones probably don’t need to be said but just in case…

Women being seen as one dimensional sex objects. An example of this would be how mainstream the porn industry is. Women in the video games a lot of boys play are ridiculously sexualized (I’d inclde a picture but I might get banned). Another example is the criticism of female politicians and public figures based on their looks.

There has never been a female president. Gender wage gap or male-female income disparity. U.S. census bureau in 2009 had women making 77% as males. The best its ever been. Domestic violence; the U.S. dept of Justice reported from 1998 to 2002 that 84% of spouse abuse victims were female and males were 83% of spouse murderers. Gender based abortions favoring boys. This might not as bad in America, but whose counting?

These are just modern day examples which people seem to be debating. Women have been oppressed since Genesis and its been universal it didn’t just stop 50 years ago. Hope this is helpful.

Well I love what you call “oppression.” I can only imagine women in countries that truly oppress women, give them no property or voting or driving rights, subject them to “honor killing” or genital mutilation, being distressed because of comic book/video game figures or low attendence at women’s basketball games.

But you’ve actually made the point. Men and women are different. Men’s brains and women’s brains are different. Men and women are physically different. We are ‘wired’ that way from the beginning and no amount of diversity training or politically correct speech will change the way God made us.

The reality is that those who are the best at an endeavor are admired and watched more than those who may enjoy a sport or artistic endeavor but cannot perform up to the level of the other sex. But it goes both ways. How many watch the ballet for the MALE dancers? While they are athletic, dynamic and amazing, the star is the ballarina. The dance is all about the females with the males more as ‘props’ to lift, and enhance the movements of the female. How unfair! Something should be done to make people watch an all male ballet troupe. In contrast, tell me that women’s college basketball is as exciting as watching the men? Really? Maybe fewer people are watching women’s basketball because it simply isn’t as entertaining as watching males. So what.

The pay gap is a canard. Do you truly think that men and women doing the exact same job are paid differently? When these statistics are actually analyzed, the pay gap is caused by women either dropping out of the workforce to have and raise children or taking on a less demanding career path. One example often given is with respect to physicians. Male physicians make on average more than female physicians. Is this due to discrimination? Yes absolutely when Blue Cross processes a claim and see’s it’s Dr Jane Smith rather than Dr Joe Smith they pay less! Right…

Here is the reality. Males go into the specialties that pay more. While the numbers in medical school are becoming almost equal, the men go into surgery and the women into dermatology or pediatrics or internal medicine in greater numbers respectively. More men go into the ‘hard sciences’ into engineering, into computer science and more women go into education and social work. The former pay more. You can claim that it’s discrimination but in reality it’s a factor of supply and demand. A male engineer is paid no more than a female engineer but since there are more males in these high paying jobs it appears women are paid less. I went into what was then a male profession. In my group of hires I was the only female out of fourteen. They paid me the exact same as the men.

Sure there is discrimination in individual cases but no one condones it. In fact if anything I see men in our society and male characteristics being demeaned far more than female characteristics. So often the male in a TV show or commercial is seen as a total doofus while his brilliant wife takes over and saves the day. That’s not healthy either. Honestly, look around without the idea that women are ‘oppressed’ and see if you see real evidence. I just don’t.

Lisa

 

[seekerz]

I find this stuff depressing and I really hate talking about it but since you asked.

Modern sexism can be more subtle and a lot of it has to do with the acceptance of things that are feminine.Traditional female characteristics and roles are seen as less than(eg. stay at home mom) and traditional male characteristics and roles are seen as superior.

Another example is how females are seen in the media and in literature. This isn’t the best example but hopefully it will illustrate my point. If a female is the main character on a tv show that show is considered a women’s or girl’s show. However, if a male is the main character its a show for everyone. I think this is more obvious in literature. Look at the Lord of the Rings all of the main characters are male, however, this is not considered a triology just for guys. If however, you had a book and every main character was female there is no way that boys would read it. You see this in sports as well, womens sports just aren’t watched. I do think that women are to blame for this as well as they seem to hold the same attitudes that men have toward women.

The more obvious ones probably don’t need to be said but just in case…

Women being seen as one dimensional sex objects. An example of this would be how mainstream the porn industry is. Women in the video games a lot of boys play are ridiculously sexualized (I’d inclde a picture but I might get banned). Another example is the criticism of female politicians and public figures based on their looks.

There has never been a female president. Gender wage gap or male-female income disparity. U.S. census bureau in 2009 had women making 77% as males. The best its ever been. Domestic violence; the U.S. dept of Justice reported from 1998 to 2002 that 84% of spouse abuse victims were female and males were 83% of spouse murderers. Gender based abortions favoring boys. This might not as bad in America, but whose counting?

These are just modern day examples which people seem to be debating. Women have been oppressed since Genesis and its been universal it didn’t just stop 50 years ago. Hope this is helpful.

Well put, and pretty much what I was trying in some measure, to say. The norms/standards of society *** are mostly shaped from a male perspective, which is why loving & respecting one’s wife *** is not sufficient to say that women have equality, because that’s the individual level - not the societal level.

 

[LucyLight]

A 30 year old woman who is obviously an intelligent, capable individual thinks WE should provide her with free birth control so she can have sex while at law school? Really? I mean really? Does anyone else see how ridiculous this entire discussion has become? **Women who demand EQUALITY turn into quivering bowls of jelly incapable of finding birth control that’s available everywhere and for a very low price?**Lisa

When I heard this woman on television I wanted to :banghead: It really is ridiculous and it shows how entitled our society has become that this woman’s views are even being taken seriously. However, you said, “women who demand equality turn into quivering bowls of jelly incapable of finding birth control.” This has nothing to do with women and equality. The left would like to frame the issue that way. However, she is just a pawn in a political idealogy that is trying to turn our society into a government run socialist system.

 

[seekerz]

Well I love what you call “oppression.” I can only imagine women in countries that truly oppress women, give them no property or voting or driving rights, subject them to “honor killing” or genital mutilation, being distressed because of comic book/video game figures or low attendence at women’s basketball games.

But you’ve actually made the point. Men and women are different. Men’s brains and women’s brains are different. Men and women are physically different. We are ‘wired’ that way from the beginning and no amount of diversity training or politically correct speech will change the way God made us.

The reality is that those who are the best at an endeavor are admired and watched more than those who may enjoy a sport or artistic endeavor but cannot perform up to the level of the other sex. But it goes both ways. How many watch the ballet for the MALE dancers? While they are athletic, dynamic and amazing, the star is the ballarina. The dance is all about the females with the males more as ‘props’ to lift, and enhance the movements of the female. How unfair! Something should be done to make people watch an all male ballet troupe. In contrast, tell me that women’s college basketball is as exciting as watching the men? Really? Maybe fewer people are watching women’s basketball because it simply isn’t as entertaining as watching males. So what.

The pay gap is a canard. Do you truly think that men and women doing the exact same job are paid differently? When these statistics are actually analyzed, the pay gap is caused by women either dropping out of the workforce to have and raise children or taking on a less demanding career path. One example often given is with respect to physicians. Male physicians make on average more than female physicians. Is this due to discrimination? Yes absolutely when Blue Cross processes a claim and see’s it’s Dr Jane Smith rather than Dr Joe Smith they pay less! Right…

Here is the reality. Males go into the specialties that pay more. While the numbers in medical school are becoming almost equal, the men go into surgery and the women into dermatology or pediatrics or internal medicine in greater numbers respectively. More men go into the ‘hard sciences’ into engineering, into computer science and more women go into education and social work. The former pay more. You can claim that it’s discrimination but in reality it’s a factor of supply and demand. A male engineer is paid no more than a female engineer but since there are more males in these high paying jobs it appears women are paid less. I went into what was then a male profession. In my group of hires I was the only female out of fourteen. They paid me the exact same as the men.

Sure there is discrimination in individual cases but no one condones it. In fact if anything I see men in our society and male characteristics being demeaned far more than female characteristics. So often the male in a TV show or commercial is seen as a total doofus while his brilliant wife takes over and saves the day. That’s not healthy either. Honestly, look around without the idea that women are ‘oppressed’ and see if you see real evidence. I just don’t.

Lisa

I agree with you about the pay gap, at least to the extent that it seems unreasonable to expect people to earn the same simply because they are in the same profession. If a woman wants to take time off and raise a family, I say kudos to her. However, if we look more deeply at some of the trends, it may be possible that, for example, women doctors find it harder to enter surgical specialties but have no problem entering pediatrics since men avoid that. If such is the case, then it would still be a gender inequality issue, because her choices would be defined, not by choosing to put family first, but by the barriers she encounters in her profession.

It’s the same with women in politics. I hear complaints all the time that women should be represented more, especially at higher levels - and I agree. However, I don’t think what is needed is a quota system to artificially balance the numbers - which is somehow the impression I get when I hear those comments. What is needed is the removal of any barriers which are not encountered by men aspiring to public office; at this stage I think they are likely more related to societal attitudes than to discriminatory behavior but I stand open to correction.

The point is, God created male and female different for a reason. I cannot think of any problem, issue, concern or endeavor which would not benefit from being examined by a pair of eyes from both sexes. If women are shut out from contributing their perspective the full dimensions of potential solutions will go unexplored.

 

[LucyLight]

Well I love what you call “oppression.” I can only imagine women in countries that truly oppress women, give them no property or voting or driving rights, subject them to “honor killing” or genital mutilation, being distressed because of comic book/video game figures or low attendence at women’s basketball games.

But you’ve actually made the point. Men and women are different. Men’s brains and women’s brains are different. Men and women are physically different. We are ‘wired’ that way from the beginning and no amount of diversity training or politically correct speech will change the way God made us.

The reality is that those who are the best at an endeavor are admired and watched more than those who may enjoy a sport or artistic endeavor but cannot perform up to the level of the other sex. But it goes both ways. How many watch the ballet for the MALE dancers? While they are athletic, dynamic and amazing, the star is the ballarina. The dance is all about the females with the males more as ‘props’ to lift, and enhance the movements of the female. How unfair! Something should be done to make people watch an all male ballet troupe. In contrast, tell me that women’s college basketball is as exciting as watching the men? Really? Maybe fewer people are watching women’s basketball because it simply isn’t as entertaining as watching males. So what.

The pay gap is a canard. Do you truly think that men and women doing the exact same job are paid differently? When these statistics are actually analyzed, the pay gap is caused by women either dropping out of the workforce to have and raise children or taking on a less demanding career path. One example often given is with respect to physicians. Male physicians make on average more than female physicians. Is this due to discrimination? Yes absolutely when Blue Cross processes a claim and see’s it’s Dr Jane Smith rather than Dr Joe Smith they pay less! Right…

Here is the reality. Males go into the specialties that pay more. While the numbers in medical school are becoming almost equal, the men go into surgery and the women into dermatology or pediatrics or internal medicine in greater numbers respectively. More men go into the ‘hard sciences’ into engineering, into computer science and more women go into education and social work. The former pay more. You can claim that it’s discrimination but in reality it’s a factor of supply and demand. A male engineer is paid no more than a female engineer but since there are more males in these high paying jobs it appears women are paid less. I went into what was then a male profession. In my group of hires I was the only female out of fourteen. They paid me the exact same as the men.

Sure there is discrimination in individual cases but no one condones it. In fact if anything I see men in our society and male characteristics being demeaned far more than female characteristics. So often the male in a TV show or commercial is seen as a total doofus while his brilliant wife takes over and saves the day. That’s not healthy either. Honestly, look around without the idea that women are ‘oppressed’ and see if you see real evidence. I just don’t.

Lisa

So its okay to discriminate against women in lesser forms because its not as bad as what is happening in the rest of the world? Women aren’t being subjected to genital mutilation so the porn industry gets a big pass. And I really wish that people would stop pointing out that men and women are different…duh. Who said they were the same.

I think that the reason why a lot of women try to act like men is because masculine characteristics are favored by both men and women. You may not see this as a big deal but I assure you the denigration of what is feminine is destroying the family. And boo hoo men are portrayed as a doofuses in tv commericals. Women are portrayed as the nagging wife, the dumb bimbo, the shallow shoe shopper…whatever.

 

[LucyLight]

I agree with you about the pay gap, at least to the extent that it seems unreasonable to expect people to earn the same simply because they are in the same profession. If a woman wants to take time off and raise a family, I say kudos to her. However, if we look more deeply at some of the trends, it may be possible that, for example, women doctors find it harder to enter surgical specialties but have no problem entering pediatrics since men avoid that. If such is the case, then it would still be a gender inequality issue, because her choices would be defined, not by choosing to put family first, but by the barriers she encounters in her profession.

It’s the same with women in politics. I hear complaints all the time that women should be represented more, especially at higher levels - and I agree. However, I don’t think what is needed is a quota system to artificially balance the numbers - which is somehow the impression I get when I hear those comments. What is needed is the removal of any barriers which are not encountered by men aspiring to public office; at this stage I think they are likely more related to societal attitudes than to discriminatory behavior but I stand open to correction.

The point is, God created male and female different for a reason. I cannot think of any problem, issue, concern or endeavor which would not benefit from being examined by a pair of eyes from both sexes. If women are shut out from contributing their perspective the full dimensions of potential solutions will go unexplored.

I love your last point that society benefits from the perspectives of both men and women. Our differences should be valued more.

 

[BRZ]

I agree with you about the pay gap, at least to the extent that it seems unreasonable to expect people to earn the same simply because they are in the same profession. If a woman wants to take time off and raise a family, I say kudos to her. However, if we look more deeply at some of the trends, it may be possible that, for example, women doctors find it harder to enter surgical specialties but have no problem entering pediatrics since men avoid that. If such is the case, then it would still be a gender inequality issue, because her choices would be defined, not by choosing to put family first, but by the barriers she encounters in her profession.

It’s the same with women in politics. I hear complaints all the time that women should be represented more, especially at higher levels - and I agree. However, I don’t think what is needed is a quota system to artificially balance the numbers - which is somehow the impression I get when I hear those comments. What is needed is the removal of any barriers which are not encountered by men aspiring to public office; at this stage I think they are likely more related to societal attitudes than to discriminatory behavior but I stand open to correction.

The point is, God created male and female different for a reason. I cannot think of any problem, issue, concern or endeavor which would not benefit from being examined by a pair of eyes from both sexes. If women are shut out from contributing their perspective the full dimensions of potential solutions will go unexplored.

I agree that women should not be treated as second class citizens but I don’t know if one can say just because a woman may not be able to do a certain kind of job or do certain things that men are able to do is necessarily treating women unfairly. I do not think that women should do all the things that men do and vice versa. This may just be my opinion, but I do feel that women should mostly stay home to take care of the family, not because that is somehow an inferior position or makes them less than a man but because I think that is how God created them to be. Meaning that they are best equipped mentally, physically and emotionally for being the core of the family, taking care of the children and ensuring that the family is run well and with love.

This does not mean that they do not have a voice in society, politics, etc. I think a woman’s voice is very important in all aspects of life. What I disagree with you on was that you somehow felt that women were not being represented fairly on an issue you feel is mostly related to women but it is not an issue that mostly relates to women, it relates to all Catholics and all people. This is a matter best handled by our religious leaders who happen to be men. I believe that the issue is something we should all talk about and that women have a very valid perspective to offer to the dialogue and that we should all work together to fight on behalf of the Church on these issues, that goes without question.

 

[seekerz]

I agree that women should not be treated as second class citizens but I don’t know if one can say just because a woman may not be able to do a certain kind of job or do certain things that men are able to do is necessarily treating women unfairly. I do not think that women should do all the things that men do and vice versa. This may just be my opinion, but I do feel that women should mostly stay home to take care of the family, not because that is somehow an inferior position or makes them less than a man but because I think that is how God created them to be. Meaning that they are best equipped mentally, physically and emotionally for being the core of the family, taking care of the children and ensuring that the family is run well and with love.

This does not mean that they do not have a voice in society, politics, etc. I think a woman’s voice is very important in all aspects of life. What I disagree with you on was that you somehow felt that women were not being represented fairly on an issue you feel is mostly related to women but it is not an issue that mostly relates to women, it relates to all Catholics and all people. This is a matter best handled by our religious leaders who happen to be men. I believe that the issue is something we should all talk about and that women have a very valid perspective to offer to the dialogue and that we should all work together to fight on behalf of the Church on these issues, that goes without question.

I get your point and heartily disagree because the arena was not the Church but a secular forum. I’ll just leave it at that.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

Modern sexism can be more subtle and a lot of it has to do with the acceptance of things that are feminine.Traditional female characteristics and roles are seen as less than(eg. stay at home mom) and traditional male characteristics and roles are seen as superior.

I will agree about this but it seems to me women haven’t helped the situation much. It would help if women would help build each other up in this role. When I first started to stay home, most of the people that thought I was crazy were women.

Another example is how females are seen in the media and in literature. This isn’t the best example but hopefully it will illustrate my point. If a female is the main character on a tv show that show is considered a women’s or girl’s show.
However, if a male is the main character its a show for everyone. I think this is more obvious in literature. Look at the Lord of the Rings all of the main characters are male, however, this is not considered a triology just for guys. If however, you had a book and every main character was female there is no way that boys would read it. You see this in sports as well, womens sports just aren’t watched. I do think that women are to blame for this as well as they seem to hold the same attitudes that men have toward women.

This probably is a difference in character, the emotions and feeling versus action. I can sit through some shows geared toward men but not very many and I wouldn’t like it too much if my husband watched women sports and I would question if he started enjoying books about women. Men have different characteristics because that is how God made them. Women should be women too because that is how God made us. Thing is in society today, women want to throw off their feminine characteristics and try to be “equal” to men. It’s the old, the grass is always greener on the other side. How many schools today have tossed out home-ec classes because girls aren’t interested or made fun of if they are. No more learning how to care for children, budget, manage a home or cook. Cook - no wonder restaurants do so well today. And if someone says something about these jobs, they are put down as menial tasks that aren’t important, by both men and women. Don’t even try wearing a (modest) skirt instead of pants because someone is bound to say something or give you a strange look and it is usually a woman making you feel like a traitor.

Women being seen as one dimensional sex objects. An example of this would be how mainstream the porn industry is. Women in the video games a lot of boys play are ridiculously sexualized (I’d inclde a picture but I might get banned). Another example is the criticism of female politicians and public figures based on their looks. .

I agree. We are being seen as sex objects. I hate this. I hate that the porn industry is so huge and sex is talked about on television like it is nothing. I don’t think you can blame one sex for that. Pope Paul VI predicted this would happen as people began using contraceptives. So, that situation is probably going to get worse with the demands women are making today regarding so called “health care.”

There has never been a female president. Gender wage gap or male-female income disparity. U.S. census bureau in 2009 had women making 77% as males. The best its ever been. Domestic violence; the U.S. dept of Justice reported from 1998 to 2002 that 84% of spouse abuse victims were female and males were 83% of spouse murderers. Gender based abortions favoring boys. This might not as bad in America, but whose counting?

These are just modern day examples which people seem to be debating. Women have been oppressed since Genesis and its been universal it didn’t just stop 50 years ago. Hope this is helpful.

I don’t have a problem with the fact that we have not had a female president. I don’t like much of what the female politicians stand for. There are some that are pro-life and conservative but I don’t see that often and if they are they don’t get promoted very much.

I guess my point is some of the things that women think are oppression are not oppression but dissatisfaction. Women seem to think that things are better if they could just get away from the home and have a job and men go along with it, either to keep peace or because they want or need the extra money.

You’re right, the problem didn’t stop 50 years ago. It is getting increasingly worse and I don’t see how women demanding contraceptives * (Psalm 127:3 Behold, children are a gift of the LORD, The fruit of the womb is a reward) * and careers and sports are helping the matter.

Women’s dissatifaction and being deceived can be traced back to Eve. Eve said no to God but thankfully Mary said yes and we can look to her as our example.

Men and women both have roles to fulfill in our world today.

Titus 2: 1But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine. 2Older men are to be temperate, dignified, sensible, sound in faith, in love, in perseverance.

3Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, 4so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.

Main point of agreement spousal abuse is horrible and I would hope that parents would teach their young sons they are to be protectors and knights not villians but unfortunately because of sin that isn’t happening too much. There is no excuse for domestic violence. This I would totally agree is not just oppression but disgusting

 

[LilHomemaker]

I will agree about this but it seems to me women haven’t helped the situation much. It would help if women would help build each other up in this role. When I first started to stay home, most of the people that thought I was crazy were women.

This probably is a difference in character, the emotions and feeling versus action. I can sit through some shows geared toward men but not very many and I wouldn’t like it too much if my husband watched women sports and I would question if he started enjoying books about women. Men have different characteristics because that is how God made them. Women should be women too because that is how God made us. Thing is in society today, women want to throw off their feminine characteristics and try to be “equal” to men. It’s the old, the grass is always greener on the other side. How many schools today have tossed out home-ec classes because girls aren’t interested or made fun of if they are. No more learning how to care for children, budget, manage a home or cook. Cook - no wonder restaurants do so well today. And if someone says something about these jobs, they are put down as menial tasks that aren’t important, by both men and women. Don’t even try wearing a (modest) skirt instead of pants because someone is bound to say something or give you a strange look and it is usually a woman making you feel like a traitor.

I agree. We are being seen as sex objects. I hate this. I hate that the porn industry is so huge and sex is talked about on television like it is nothing. I don’t think you can blame one sex for that. Pope Paul VI predicted this would happen as people began using contraceptives. So, that situation is probably going to get worse with the demands women are making today regarding so called “health care.”

I don’t have a problem with the fact that we have not had a female president. I don’t like much of what the female politicians stand for. There are some that are pro-life and conservative but I don’t see that often and if they are they don’t get promoted very much.

I guess my point is some of the things that women think are oppression are not oppression but dissatisfaction. Women seem to think that things are better if they could just get away from the home and have a job and men go along with it, either to keep peace or because they want or need the extra money.

You’re right, the problem didn’t stop 50 years ago. It is getting increasingly worse and I don’t see how women demanding contraceptives * (Psalm 127:3 Behold, children are a gift of the LORD, The fruit of the womb is a reward) * and careers and sports are helping the matter.

Women’s dissatifaction and being deceived can be traced back to Eve. Eve said no to God but thankfully Mary said yes and we can look to her as our example.

Men and women both have roles to fulfill in our world today.

Titus 2: 1But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine. 2Older men are to be temperate, dignified, sensible, sound in faith, in love, in perseverance.

3Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, 4so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.

Main point of agreement spousal abuse is horrible and I would hope that parents would teach their young sons they are to be protectors and knights not villians but unfortunately because of sin that isn’t happening too much. There is no excuse for domestic violence. This I would totally agree is not just oppression but disgusting

Diana, I agree with you. Both men and women have roles and responsibilities. Societies problems aren’t just one genders problems and I think too it is dissatisfaction more than oppression. As I said before some women have to work and some choose careers.

True spousal abuse is too horrible and no one ever should be abused or bullied.

 

[prosecutor]

I don’t think you can really state things like women were made by God to stay at home and care for the family because God made them more caring, nurturing, etc. Not all women should be mothers, or even stay at home mothers. Just because they are female does not automatically make them “nurturing”. I’ve known several men who would probably be better stay at home parents than their wives. It just depends on the individual. To me, that is a main point of feminism-being able to make the best decision for yourself without feeling pressure from social norms to take on a certain role just because of your gender. This would apply to both sexes.