Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

[LisaA]

Is this a roundabout way of asking: what do women want?

If so, I would say that it’s too complicated to spell out in a forum post.

If I had to put it simply though, I’d say I want to chance, going forward, to live in a world where people and things (including issues like women’s employment) are deal with on their merits and not on pre-fabricated ideas. That’s my utopia.

That is not to say there should not be objective principles but that these should be applied individually and adapted to the situation. Simply succumbing to habit, common practice or blanket ideologies, is, to me, a lazy way of living.

This is interesting because I don’t think anyone disagrees (merit based objective) with that plan. Where do you see this not being implemented? IOW do you think that equally qualified women are not given an opportunity to advance in their schooling or careers?

What about programs like affirmative action or set aside contracts for women or ethnic groups? Do you think this is helpful? Does this give us the best result? I’m pretty skeptical that these plans have long term benefits. Maybe good for a ‘jump start’ to get women or minorities into non-traditional fields but once they become entrenched, I think there are diminishing returns.

Just as an aside, a friend’s husband owns a construction business and gets these huge government bridge building contracts. He learned that there were special contracts available only to women or minority owned businesses. So he set up his wife (who had zero interest or experience running a construction job) in her own business to get those contracts. He did all the work of course…

That’s one reason I object to non-merit based advancement whether in college admission, contracting, jobs etc. I think it is discouraging to a well qualified applicant (these days it’s tough to be Asian!) to find out someone with lower test scores or ability leap frogs over them by virtue of their sex or ethnic background. Also per above, it can be easy in contracting particularly to set up a minority or woman owned business and circumvent the process.

Lisa

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

Is this a roundabout way of asking: what do women want?

If so, I would say that it’s too complicated to spell out in a forum post.

Agreed.

If I had to put it simply though, I’d say I want to chance, going forward, to live in a world where people and things (including issues like women’s employment) are deal with on their merits and not on pre-fabricated ideas. That’s my utopia.

To add: dealt with on their merits on a case-by-case basis.

 

[BlindManWalking]

So basically you two can’t explain what you want except vague concepts?

Welcome to relativism.

Can’t anyone just state a dang objective truth anymore? Or just be concrete in what they’d like to see?

it’s like starting out on a cross-country trek without a map to get to the goal.

OK, fine, Puget Sound is the destination… what’s the dang route?

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

So basically you two can’t explain what you want except vague concepts?

Because the entire concept of working women is vague. It’s about as nebulous as talking about a “happy life” or the “ideal spouse” or the “best prayer.” The answer is going to be different for everyone; it’s going to change as each person moves through their life; and it’s going to depend on the circumstances each person finds themselves in. Which could change tomorrow.

There’s no one-size-fits-all road map here. Relative, yes. Realistic, yes. Shades of grey, yes. That’s real life for you.

Luna

 

[BlindManWalking]

So speak the black and white and let the shadows fall where they may in relation of the light shining on the features.

 

[seekerz]

This is interesting because I don’t think anyone disagrees (merit based objective) with that plan. Where do you see this not being implemented? IOW do you think that equally qualified women are not given an opportunity to advance in their schooling or careers?

What about programs like affirmative action or set aside contracts for women or ethnic groups? Do you think this is helpful? Does this give us the best result? I’m pretty skeptical that these plans have long term benefits. Maybe good for a ‘jump start’ to get women or minorities into non-traditional fields but once they become entrenched, I think there are diminishing returns.

Just as an aside, a friend’s husband owns a construction business and gets these huge government bridge building contracts. He learned that there were special contracts available only to women or minority owned businesses. So he set up his wife (who had zero interest or experience running a construction job) in her own business to get those contracts. He did all the work of course…

That’s one reason I object to non-merit based advancement whether in college admission, contracting, jobs etc. I think it is discouraging to a well qualified applicant (these days it’s tough to be Asian!) to find out someone with lower test scores or ability leap frogs over them by virtue of their sex or ethnic background. Also per above, it can be easy in contracting particularly to set up a minority or woman owned business and circumvent the process.

Lisa

I think that in some professions and in some subpopulations, tradition still dictates what a woman gets to do. Again we are talking perspective: a woman’s world is not a uniform, standard thing common to all women. Since I became an adult, I’ve never had to ‘get permission’ to do anything, in sharp contrast to some of my friends and acquaintances in whose (sub)culture male approval ranks so high that even a brother’s disapproval of is a big deal and a simple girls’ night out which will only get discussed if the timing is convenient to their husbands. And just to be clear, I’m not talking normal shared-decision making of married life here. I’m talking husband-can’t-occasionally-serve-himself-a-plate-of-food-at-mealtime convenient. So women today, in this country, may have vastly different experiences of the forces that define their choices.

Once one understands and accepts that, it becomes easier to see why some segments of the population need a leg-up. I’m not convinced that affirmative action type programs are necessarily the best way to go…to me ideally, the basic disadvantage which keep some women (or minorities) from being able to compete on a level playing field is what needs to go. For example, early education interventions and longer school days or after-school programs for kids from disadvantaged backgrounds make more sense to me than the shortcut of simply reserving places for those kids higher up the education ladder.

I do think though that there some justification for reserving those places when negative attitudes (and not individual capabilities) create a barrier to the merit-based advancement of candidates. That is where I believe passionate disputes occur most because some people believe that such attitudes have waned or disappeared. I submit that we have come far, but not so far as we might like to think.

As a society, this is the frank and respectful discussion we must have in order to move forward more equitably. It is not enough to point out the women or minorities who have advanced without affirmative action, but it is also necessary to gauge what proportions of those groups are able to advance on their merits. It may be that this is not uniform across the nation (my own impression) and that such programs should be targeted where they might do the most good.

That well-intended efforts to help the disadvantaged might be misused, is not sufficient argument against them. Human endeavors are, by definition, far from perfect, but this is not a reason for inaction. I’m also mildly amused by the ongoing heated debates of government programs versus charitable endeavors because I think it misses the larger point that there are good ways and bad ways to do things within either sphere and the two frequently coexist in both.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

So basically you two can’t explain what you want except vague concepts?

Welcome to relativism.

Can’t anyone just state a dang objective truth anymore? Or just be concrete in what they’d like to see?

it’s like starting out on a cross-country trek without a map to get to the goal.

OK, fine, Puget Sound is the destination… what’s the dang route?

LOL



With females, we have to discuss it ad nauseum first. And then have lunch, and go shoe shopping.

 

[FaithBuild18]

Wow… I was kind of hoping for this topic to die down by now. After the first page of backlash I really just wanted to go back into my shell and hope the whole thing would disappear.

 

[seekerz]

Wow… I was kind of hoping for this topic to die down by now. After the first page of backlash I really just wanted to go back into my shell and hope the whole thing would disappear.

There’s no unringing a bell!

Reasoned discussion and laughter: the two best medicines for the mind.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

Wow… I was kind of hoping for this topic to die down by now. After the first page of backlash I really just wanted to go back into my shell and hope the whole thing would disappear.

I’m kind of surprised it is still going, too.