Why is there a finite number of souls?

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Mmarco said:
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Anesti33:
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Mmarco:
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Anesti33:
The evidence is quite plain that there are a finite number of angels. It does not make sense that there would be an infinite number of discrete beings such as this, just like human souls.
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I disagree; I do not think it is quite plain; it is only your opinion.
I think we cannot know how many angels God has chosen to create, and an infinite number is a possibility we cannot exclude.
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Catholic Encyclopedia:
The number of the angels is frequently stated as prodigious (Daniel 7:10; Apocalypse 5:11; Psalm 67:18; Matthew 26:53). From the use of the word host ( sabaoth ) as a synonym for the heavenly army it is hard to resist the impression that the term “Lord of Hosts” refers to God’s Supreme command of the angelic multitude (cf. Deuteronomy 33:2; 32:43; Septuagint). The Fathers see a reference to the relative numbers of men and angels in the parable of the hundred sheep (Luke 15:1-3), though this may seem fanciful. The Scholastics, again, following the treatise “De Coelesti Hierarchia” of St. Denis, regard the preponderance of numbers as a necessary perfection of the angelic host (cf. St. Thomas, Summa Theologica I:1:3).
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And then? I see no valid reason to exclude the possibility that the number of angels is infinite. At this point we can only agree to disagree.
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Your personal opinion. You can cite no theologian or Church document even hinting that the angels are infinite, therefore your personal opinion is unfounded, baseless, and unsupportable. If you “agree to disagree” with theologians, Aquinas, and Sacred Scripture, then I don’t know how to rescue you.
 
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Anesti33 said:
Your personal opinion. You can cite no theologian or Church document even hinting that the angels are infinite, therefore your personal opinion is unfounded, baseless, and unsupportable. If you “agree to disagree” with theologians, Aquinas, and Sacred Scripture, then I don’t know how to rescue you.
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I can only say that I find your statements above simply absurd.
 
God hasn’t created an infinite number of anything.
–Just commenting, without giving the reason.
 
o_mlly said:
Theologians speculate from that premise that when God created the angels, He created the perfect number of angels to populate heaven. Lucifer and his dominions refused God’s friendship and fell from grace. That number of fallen angels will be replaced by human beings to return the population of heaven to perfection.
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Yes, indeed. St Anselm addressed this in chapter 18 of Cur Deus Homo. Whilst it’s speculative, he certainly seems to assume a finite number of angels, as do many other scholars.

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/anselm/basic_works.vi.ii.xviii.html
 
It is commonly understood from the book of Revelation that 1/3rd of the angels fell and 2/3rds remained in the Beatific Vision. I am really unsure how that could come to pass without a finite number to count.

Also, with an infinite number of angels, the heavens and earth and underworld would be utterly clogged with all the angels flying around everywhere. There would be nowhere for us to move without encountering a clot of some kind of angels. Every square millimeter of Creation would be occupied by a literally infinite number of angels. This does not happen, so I roll to disbelieve the speculation as absurd on its face.
 
I would also consider the following chain of reasoning.

Satan is seen as “a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth” in Rev 9:1.

Rev 12:4 then says that “… His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth“

Since Satan is referred to as a star which fell or was cast down to earth, and Rev 12:4 says a third of the stars were cast out with him, then the conclusion is that the stars in Rev 12 refer to fallen angels. In other words, the number of fallen angels equals one third of the total number of angels.

Now if the total number of angels is infinite, then one third of infinity is still infinity. I’m not sure what the point would be of mentioning that a third of the angels had fallen. I get that not all infinities are equal (think of the movie “The fault in our stars”) but in this case, an infinite number of angels wouldn’t make sense.

Just my 0.02c.

God bless.
 
Anesti33 said:
It is commonly understood from the book of Revelation that 1/3rd of the angels fell and 2/3rds remained in the Beatific Vision. I am really unsure how that could come to pass without a finite number to count.
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Errrr … yeah … what Anesti33 said. 😀
 
Both even and all whole numbers are countably infinite, yet I can still say every other number is even. One third of an infinite set may be infinite, yet it would still be reasonable to say for every three one fell even if there were infinite angels.
 
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Am I missing something? I thought the thread is supposed to be about souls, not angels.
Why is everyone therefore talking about angels?
 
Everest said:
Am I missing something? I thought the thread is supposed to be about souls, not angels.
Why is everyone therefore talking about angels?
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Maybe because the question can be interpreted as referring to intelligent beings in general.
On the other hand, when the dead rise, they will be like the angels in heaven (Mark 12:25)
 
Mmarco said:
Maybe because the question can be interpreted as referring to intelligent beings in general.
On the other hand, when the dead rise, they will be like the angels in heaven (Mark 12:25)
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I re-read the OP and I disagree with you. It clear and unambiguous that the OP is specifically and only referring to souls.
 
Scholars, Saints can speculate, however they are not impeccable or stating doctrine.
 
Mostly I’m finding the arguments against an infinite number of angels uncompelling, but that’s less on theological grounds than on mathematical ones.

I would say a finite number of human souls sounds more reasonable than an infinite number, but that relies on certain assumptions about the time horizon and “current” number of humans we are looking at. With only one Earth (and outlying universe) and a finite time until the Second Coming, there should be only a finite number of human souls. If something is wrong about those assumptions, for instance other universes with human souls, then the calculation changes.
 
An infinite number would not fit into a finite universe. There would be no room for them.
 
mdgspencer said:
An infinite number would not fit into a finite universe. There would be no room for them.
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Numbers in general? Infinite numbers fit into finite ranges all the time. There is an infinite number of numbers between 0 and 1 (actually, there are more numbers between 0 and 1 than there are whole numbers; irrationals are uncountably infinite). There are an infinite number of points on a dartboard. There’s an infinite number of moments between now and lunchtime. Etc.
 
Maybe I am confused, but what is the issue? I have no idea how many souls there are, but what would the problem be with that number being finite. The number of souls can be finite, and still be unlimited. Finite does not necessarily mean limited. There can be plenty of souls to go around, and God can always make more. No matter how many He makes, the number will be finite, but it won’t be limited. So what is the problem?
 
It largely doesn’t matter as the number of souls or the number of angels, finite or infinite, has no bearing on our salvation. Were there only one human soul, Christ would still have incarnated and died for that one.

I would say that from God’s point of view (to the extent we understand it) there is no such thing as a finite but unlimited number. He doesn’t really create one thing after the other; time is for our benefit. So even though the number of human souls would always be going up from our point of view, He would know the exact number of souls He has/is/will create.
 
I think God intend a never-ending stream of human life not ending in death but assumed body and soul to eternal life. Human life without history because everyone is alive and present. The community of Saints would be present but not bound by the laws of physics. They would also all be family.
 
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