Why is there evil in Nature?

[tonyrey]

You tell me; you’re the one making ill-considered remarks about societies that consider their highest purpose to make a good life on this earth.

Societies may consider their highest purpose to make a good life on this earth but the horrific amount of injustice and unnecessary suffering in the world demonstrates that many individuals think otherwise…

History shows that societies rise and fall regardless of what their members believe to be their purpose. The main factor in how a society fares is who their neighbors are.

History shows that societies fall when many of their members become morally corrupt and decadent…

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Filippo
**
In fact, if we look at the Christian monarchical societies commonplace in the Middle Ages, they are all long gone – replaced by secular republics. So perhaps we should be questioning the viability of societies that place service to God higher than human happiness. **

You falsely assume that Christianity invented monarchy. Monarchies existed long before Christianity. Christianity did much to temper the severity of monarchy, as when the Catholic Church was most instrumental in creating the Magna Carta.

As the centuries passed the monarchies were diminished in power or perished, more from a sense of the dignity of all men before God than from the dignity of all men before Nogod. If you think secular societies are what will produce happy societies, look at what happened in Russia and China when their dictators outlawed God, and when Hitler attacked Christianity and Judaism in Germany.

 

[Justin_Swanton]

Filippo
**
In fact, if we look at the Christian monarchical societies commonplace in the Middle Ages, they are all long gone – replaced by secular republics. So perhaps we should be questioning the viability of societies that place service to God higher than human happiness. **

You falsely assume that Christianity invented monarchy. Monarchies existed long before Christianity. Christianity did much to temper the severity of monarchy, as when the Catholic Church was most instrumental in creating the Magna Carta.

As the centuries passed the monarchies were diminished in power or perished, more from a sense of the dignity of all men before God than from the dignity of all men before Nogod. If you think secular societies are what will produce happy societies, look at what happened in Russia and China when their dictators outlawed God, and when Hitler attacked Christianity and Judaism in Germany.

 

[mexilad]

I like the notion that God allows evil to exist in order to bring about a greater good. That works for me.

 

[Roy5]

** Sadly, much of the Old Testament is full of atrocities which were allegedly ordered by God**. The invasion of the ‘Promised Land’, for example, witnessed the destruction of one city after another when the Lord commanded that all the inhabitants be killed - e. g., Jericho and Ai.

**Then, you have the outrageous slaughter of every remaining Amalekite by Saul, again ordered by God. **And what about the shouts of "Saul has killed his thousand sbut David has killed his ten thousands!" I can't imagine Jesus joining in such enthusiasm for wholesale genocide, can you? And re-check II Kings 2:23ff. God had two she-bears come out of the woods and maul 42 teenagers because they made fun of Elisha'a bald head???! Give me a break.

** This idea that God did these things for a greater good? Hm! The ends justify the means? ** That flatly contradicts my view - and the view of the Christian faith as I interpret it - that God is good, just, fair, and merciful. Maybe we need to keep the Sermon on the Mount in mind - 'ye have heard it said, and eye for an eye…ye have heard it said, thou shalt love your neighbor and hate you enemy, but I say unto you…" Etc.

  **The problem of evil is one that we will never sort out in this life.** I am content to wait for a valid explanation in the world to come. Meanwhile, I think that Christians need to focus on Matt. 25:31ff. Though we may not reach a 'peaceable kingdom' in this world, that needs to be our goal. The Golden Rule still holds whether or not people abide by it.

** I have no sympathy with the ‘Christianity’ as promoted by the Jehovah Witnesses, but their explanation of evil at least makes sense.**They argue that Satan rules the world, which is why evil exists and so often triumphs. I recall one relative who lost a beloved daughter. The parents, of course, were devastated. They looked for a religion that provided a rational explanation for this tragedy and became JWs. That troubled me, but it gave them some degree of peace, and I couldn’t argue with that.

** More precisely in line with the topic, if the devil does rule the world, naturally there is evil in nature**. But I live with the belief, realistic or naive, that “the earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof’” - if I recall that verse from the Psalms correctly. Again, I’ll await eternity to get the full picture of why evil exists in nature.
** God bless everybody. Let us seek to make religion a bridge and not a barrier.**

 

[Filippo_Bruno]

Societies may consider their highest purpose to make a good life on this earth but the horrific amount of injustice and unnecessary suffering in the world demonstrates that many individuals think otherwise…

That’s fair and true enough.

History shows that societies fall when many of their members become morally corrupt and decadent…

Could you name some examples? I can’t think of any that meet this standard. I suppose we should clarify what it means for a society to “fall.” I think that means that the order of things has been upset to such a degree that the culture and state power is unrecognizable or simply gone. Some examples would include the Mayans, much of the Mediterranean after Alexander, or possibly the French before and after the revolution. I don’t think the defeat of the Nazis counts as a society falling – simply an evil government being destroyed and replaced.

 

[Filippo_Bruno]

Filippo
**
In fact, if we look at the Christian monarchical societies commonplace in the Middle Ages, they are all long gone – replaced by secular republics. So perhaps we should be questioning the viability of societies that place service to God higher than human happiness. **

You falsely assume that Christianity invented monarchy. Monarchies existed long before Christianity. Christianity did much to temper the severity of monarchy, as when the Catholic Church was most instrumental in creating the Magna Carta.

My statement didn’t rest on that assumption. They could have been republics and my point would stand, if they still had evaporated as they did.

If you think secular societies are what will produce happy societies, look at what happened in Russia and China when their dictators outlawed God, and when Hitler attacked Christianity and Judaism in Germany.

It doesn’t matter what I think, the evidence currently supports the notion that happy societies are secular societies. Denmark, Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands all consistently rank highest in happiness and lowest in religiosity. Even countries which are more religious, like the US and Australia, have protections in their constitutions and culture for religious freedom.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Filippo

**It doesn’t matter what I think, the evidence currently supports the notion that happy societies are secular societies. **

There is no such evidence. Happiness cannot be measured, neither in a scientific laboratory nor by a statistical survey. However, suicide can.

The constant record of evidence is that the suicide rate is higher in highly atheistic countries than in highly religious countries.

adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html

If the secularists are so happy, why are they so suicidal?

 

[Roy5]

A few weeks ago, in his Sunday bulletin column, the priest listed the five ‘happiest’ countries in the world. What surprised me was that all five turned out to be Protestant-majority countries. I wonder if the good Father thought of that before listing them? Doubtful.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Roy

**A few weeks ago, in his Sunday bulletin column, the priest listed the five ‘happiest’ countries in the world. What surprised me was that all five turned out to be Protestant-majority countries. I wonder if the good Father thought of that before listing them? Doubtful. **

To reiterate, there is no way to measure happiness. There is no scientific device to do it, and a statistical study would certainly not do it because there is no universal definition of happiness.

However, suicide can be measured, and the countries with the lowest suicide rate are mostly Catholic dominated countries.

What were the five countries listed by the priest?

 

[tonyrey]

It doesn’t matter what I think, the evidence currently supports the notion that happy societies are secular societies.

You have overlooked the fact that the UK is plumbing the depths of human misery with its millions of abortions, teenage pregnancies, one parent families, children separated from their father or mother, unemployed young people, lonely old people, alcoholics and drug addicts, ruthless reporters,.corrupt policemen and politicians, unprecented inequality and injustice…

 

[tonyrey]

Could you name some examples? I can’t think of any that meet this standard.

The mighty Roman empire was destroyed from within as a result of dissension and decadence.