Why is there not a single Protestant Understanding of the Bible?

[CMatt25]

We have a need to be conformed to Truth, NOT to 'be told by this authority what to do and what to believe about everything." That makes me that you offer this as an explanation.

PR, I’m about to head off for now. But I don’t see much difference between what I said and what you are saying. Are you saying many faithful Catholics don’t believe in the authority of the Church on earth to interpret/teach/tell/inform them as to what the Catholic Church believes the Truth is, so they can conform their consciences accordingly?

 

[PRmerger]

PR, I’m about to head off for now. But I don’t see much difference between what I said and what you are saying. Are you saying many faithful Catholics don’t believe in the authority of the Church on earth to interpret/teach/tell/inform them as to what the Catholic Church believes the Truth is, so they can conform their consciences accordingly?

Here’s the difference:

Let’s take an analogy of a grad student in Math:

Your proposition: Many grad students, believing in their professor’s authority on all matters Mathematic, have a need then to be told by this authority what to do and what to believe about everything. That’s their faith.

The actual situation: Many grad students, listen to the words and teachings of their Math professor on all matters Mathematic, have a need to understand the why and the how and come to an understanding of its truth.

http://mbaat50.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/complex-formula1.gif

Thus, as Cardinal John Henry Newman said: “Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt, for a man may be annoyed that he cannot work out a mathematical problem, without doubting that it admits an answer”.

So, even if the mathematical problem above looks confusing, and I accept the professor’s authority that it is true, I need to work it out for myself.

 

[onemangang]

Here’s the difference:

Let’s take an analogy of a grad student in Math:

Your proposition: Many grad students, believing in their professor’s authority on all matters Mathematic, have a need then to be told by this authority what to do and what to believe about everything. That’s their faith.

The actual situation: Many grad students, listen to the words and teachings of their Math professor on all matters Mathematic, have a need to understand the why and the how and come to an understanding of its truth.

http://mbaat50.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/complex-formula1.gif

Thus, as Cardinal John Henry Newman said: “Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt, for a man may be annoyed that he cannot work out a mathematical problem, without doubting that it admits an answer”.

So, even if the mathematical problem above looks confusing, and I accept the professor’s authority that it is true, I need to work it out for myself.

Great analogy!

 

[Anthony_V]

PR, I’m about to head off for now. But I don’t see much difference between what I said and what you are saying. Are you saying many faithful Catholics don’t believe in the authority of the Church on earth to interpret/teach/tell/inform them as to what the Catholic Church believes the Truth is, so they can conform their consciences accordingly?

Truth does not vary, except in form. The man who wishes to live a holy life and strives for perfection will undoubtedly demand a rigorous standard. That is not a standard that many protestants have due to their view on total depravity. If there is no supreme and direct interpretation of the Truth for those who seek it, there is no logical pursuit for a life of holiness. Certainly, this is at odds with the fact that Christian monasticism dates back to the mid 3rd century.

 

[PRmerger]

Great analogy!

shaw:

 

[CMatt25]

Right.

And I also don’t understand how someone who advocates this paradigm can also say that certain things are NOT correct, but be guided by the Holy Spirit. How does that work? The Holy Spirit tells someone to believe an incorrect belief? The Holy Spirit guides us to all truth, but also tells people something wrong?

It works by faith, PR. And one proclaims their faith to others if they desire to do so. It’s up to others whether they accept the faith being proclaimed or not.

 

[CMatt25]

Here’s the difference:

Let’s take an analogy of a grad student in Math:

Your proposition: Many grad students, believing in their professor’s authority on all matters Mathematic, have a need then to be told by this authority what to do and what to believe about everything. That’s their faith.

The actual situation: Many grad students, listen to the words and teachings of their Math professor on all matters Mathematic, have a need to understand the why and the how and come to an understanding of its truth.

http://mbaat50.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/complex-formula1.gif

Thus, as Cardinal John Henry Newman said: “Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt, for a man may be annoyed that he cannot work out a mathematical problem, without doubting that it admits an answer”.

So, even if the mathematical problem above looks confusing, and I accept the professor’s authority that it is true, I need to work it out for myself.

And if you don’t work out the math problem for yourself in the way the math professor tells you it is, then what happens? You get an “F”?

In the Catholic Church, an “F” is what? Along the lines of being told you can’t identify as a Catholic? Or told you’re not really one? Excommunicated? Labeled a heretic? Being told in CCC you could not be saved?

Not really the best analogy though PR because math is more of a science. It’s not faith.

 

[PRmerger]

It works by faith, PR. And one proclaims their faith to others if they desire to do so. It’s up to others whether they accept the faith being proclaimed or not.

This is too nebulous.

What do you say to someone who reads the Scriptures and proclaims that Mary is a goddess. It’s his faith that tells him this.

Or, if you’re with that view, how about a person who reads the Scriptures and proclaims that God hates people of a particular skin color, gender or sexual orientation?

Would you want to change their position?

If not, why not?

If so, why?

 

[Anthony_V]

This is too nebulous.

What do you say to someone who reads the Scriptures and proclaims that Mary is a goddess. It’s his faith that tells him this.

Or, if you’re with that view, how about a person who reads the Scriptures and proclaims that God hates people of a particular skin color, gender or sexual orientation?

Would you want to change their position?

If not, why not?

If so, why?

Presuppositionalism is a beautiful thing.

 

[Newsy]

It works by faith, PR. And one proclaims their faith to others if they desire to do so. It’s up to others whether they accept the faith being proclaimed or not.

So, what does your faith do to help the Holy Spirit? You say that the HS works by faith, how so?

BTW, could you give me your definition of “faith”, you seem to be using it in very different ways. I understand when you refer to different religions as faiths, but other times I have a hard time understanding what you are saying with the word “faith”.

I think PR’s point was, if one cannot define what is correct or incorrect, how can they share their beliefs? If one doesn’t know what’s correct, then how could you share your, possibly incorrect, beliefs with others?

 

[Newsy]

And if you don’t work out the math problem for yourself in the way the math professor tells you it is, then what happens? You get an “F”?

In the Catholic Church, an “F” is what? Along the lines of being told you can’t identify as a Catholic? Or told you’re not really one? Excommunicated? Labeled a heretic? Being told in CCC you could not be saved?

Not really the best analogy though PR because math is more of a science. It’s not faith.

The CCC doesn’t tell anyone they cannot be saved. Just so you know.

 

[CMatt25]

This is too nebulous.

What do you say to someone who reads the Scriptures and proclaims that Mary is a goddess. It’s his faith that tells him this.

Or, if you’re with that view, how about a person who reads the Scriptures and proclaims that God hates people of a particular skin color, gender or sexual orientation?

Would you want to change their position?

If not, why not?

If so, why?

In a charitable manner I might attempt to express my differing belief because it is what I believe. But I’m not one who’s going to judge whether or not they could be saved if they disagree with me. I’m perfectly content leaving that to God.

 

[CMatt25]

The CCC doesn’t tell anyone they cannot be saved. Just so you know.

Depends on whether “could not” is taken as a tense of “can not” or if it means “might not”.

 

[Newsy]

Depends on whether “could not” is taken as a tense of “can not” or if it means “might not”.

The CC and its Catechism leave all decisions of salvation in God’s hands. They simply teach what has been given to it by God.

 

[CMatt25]

So, what does your faith do to help the Holy Spirit? You say that the HS works by faith, how so?

BTW, could you give me your definition of “faith”, you seem to be using it in very different ways. I understand when you refer to different religions as faiths, but other times I have a hard time understanding what you are saying with the word “faith”.

I think PR’s point was, if one cannot define what is correct or incorrect, how can they share their beliefs? If one doesn’t know what’s correct, then how could you share your, possibly incorrect, beliefs with others?

What I meant was someone hears or discerns the HS by, with, and in faith. Yes besides different religions or traditions, I use “faith” interchangably with “belief”. Take for instance what a former Roman, now Episcopalian priest, once told me. He said if I listen to His spirit, God will tell me where He wants me. I would have to believe in faith that God wanted me to go to the Episcopalian or whatever other faith community I was praying about before I did so.

One can share their beliefs in faith. I do always like to remind myself now and then though that God is so infinite and the rest of us merely human with finite minds. I have faith though He shall come again and in His infinite mercy and love, He knows our hearts. And I’m content leaving the judging up to Him.

 

[CMatt25]

The CC and its Catechism leave all decisions of salvation in God’s hands. They simply teach what has been given to it by God.

So you interpret “could not be saved” to simply mean “might not”?

 

[Anthony_V]

What I meant was someone hears or discerns the HS by, with, and in faith. Yes besides different religions or traditions, I use “faith” interchangably with “belief”. Take for instance what a former Roman, now Episcopalian priest, once told me. He said if I listen to His spirit, God will tell me where He wants me. I would have to believe in faith that God wanted me to go to the Episcopalian or whatever other faith community I was praying about before I did so.

One can share their beliefs in faith. I do always like to remind myself now and then though that God is so infinite and the rest of us merely human with finite minds. I have faith though He shall come again and in His infinite mercy and love, He knows our hearts. And I’m content leaving the judging up to Him.

Are you insisting that Christ left us with just the bare necessities of knowledge for salvation rather than an active and alive superabundance? If not, are you insisting that Truth is subjective to the person’s calling rather than being objective and thus personally conformed to?

 

[Newsy]

So you interpret “could not be saved” to simply mean “might not”?

May I have the entire context? I am unsure where this quote is coming from.

 

[vsedriver]

Others like yourself have a need to pray for the discernment of the Holy Spirit along with using your God given reasoning to decide for yourself. And that’s your faith.

Both people of faith.

And of course by disagreeing with something about the Catholic faith, you are not downgrading the CC or Catholics.

May God bless all of His children along their faith journeys. Peace.

what is faith without truth?

 

[PRmerger]

And if you don’t work out the math problem for yourself in the way the math professor tells you it is, then what happens? You get an “F”?

Actually, in this paradigm, you get an F if you continue to say, “My faith tells me that the answer to the above equation is pi.” Your professor, whom you acknowledge has the authority and the knowledge, tells you, “No, it is omega.”

The F comes when you say, “I believe it’s pi.”

In the Catholic Church, an “F” is what?

Hell, of course.

Not really the best analogy though PR because math is more of a science. It’s not faith.

Here’s where you’re so wrong, Matt. Christianity, like math, is full of data. The data is the revelation given by God. It’s as true and knowable as math is.

I defy you to read this piece by Peter Kreeft and tell me that you don’t see math in his philosophical and theological arguments.