Why is there not a single Protestant Understanding of the Bible?

[PRmerger]

In a charitable manner I might attempt to express my differing belief because it is what I believe.

But why? Is his position wrong? Can you tell him after he’s studied the Scriptures,* using the exact same paradigm that you did,* that God doesn’t hate women, if that’s his conclusion?

After all, he’s doing the exact same thing you’re doing: saying that his faith tells him something.

After you explain your position, “No, Frank, God doesn’t hate. God loves! See it says right her in John’s gospel!” he’s going to say, “That’s not what my faith tells me. I believe God hates. It says so right here.”

Now, a thousand guys like you in the Church and no one’s going to be able to spread the Gospel of Love, because they’ll have no way to refute anything any hater says.

Sorry for sounding harsh tonight.

 

[sallybutler]

Actually, in this paradigm, you get an F if you continue to say, “My faith tells me that the answer to the above equation is pi.” Your professor, whom you acknowledge has the authority and the knowledge, tells you, “No, it is omega.”

The F comes when you say, “I believe it’s pi.”

Or you could find another professor who would let you get an A for saying pi. :doh2:

 

[CopticChristian]

Here’s the difference:

Let’s take an analogy of a grad student in Math:

Your proposition: Many grad students, believing in their professor’s authority on all matters Mathematic, have a need then to be told by this authority what to do and what to believe about everything. That’s their faith.

The actual situation: Many grad students, listen to the words and teachings of their Math professor on all matters Mathematic, have a need to understand the why and the how and come to an understanding of its truth.

http://mbaat50.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/complex-formula1.gif

Thus, as Cardinal John Henry Newman said: “Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt, for a man may be annoyed that he cannot work out a mathematical problem, without doubting that it admits an answer”.

So, even if the mathematical problem above looks confusing, and I accept the professor’s authority that it is true, I need to work it out for myself.

I understand everything you said. I may tend to disagree with H(P/Q)…but that is just me.

 

[PRmerger]

Or you could find another professor who would let you get an A for saying pi. :doh2:

'zactly. And that would make you happy. Until you find out that the bridge you built collapsed because the answer actually wasn’t pi.

 

[CMatt25]

May I have the entire context? I am unsure where this quote is coming from.

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they **could not be saved **who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

So in other words if someone once believed the Catholic Church to be true, but had a change of faith belief and did not remain within its practice nor return to it before death, they can not be saved? (Assuming “could not” is a tense of “can not”)

I’ve asked this multiple times though elsewhere on the forums and there never has been one concensus.

 

[PRmerger]

So in other words if someone once believed the Catholic Church to be true, but had a change of faith belief and did not remain within its practice nor return to it before death, they can not be saved? (Assuming “could not” is a tense of “can not”)

I’ve asked this multiple times though elsewhere on the forums and there never has been one concensus.

All we can say with certainty is what the Church says: he could not be saved, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

Whether than means he can not or could not or would not or may not, based on each individual’s ignorance or wisdom, is not for us to say.

Strive to enter.

 

[CMatt25]

Are you insisting that Christ left us with just the bare necessities of knowledge for salvation rather than an active and alive superabundance? If not, are you insisting that Truth is subjective to the person’s calling rather than being objective and thus personally conformed to?

I rarely insist. And I am not insisting Truth is subjective. I simply differentiate between faith and belief and actually truly knowing with absolutely positively 100% certainty. That’s where faith comes in and why we have this thing called faith. If it was so certain to know with complete certainty, many more I think would be of the same faith. It takes many steps of faith before one convinces themselves they know.

 

[CMatt25]

what is faith without truth?

Faith in what we believe is truth.

 

[CMatt25]

Actually, in this paradigm, you get an F if you continue to say, “My faith tells me that the answer to the above equation is pi.” Your professor, whom you acknowledge has the authority and the knowledge, tells you, “No, it is omega.”

The F comes when you say, “I believe it’s pi.”

Hell, of course.

Here’s where you’re so wrong, Matt. Christianity, like math, is full of data. The data is the revelation given by God.

Sure PR there is data. The difference is how someone of and in faith interprets the data or whose interpretation of the data they place their faith in. You for instance I would venture to say place faith in the ECFs and in the interpretation of their writings by your Church, and in Her interpretation of Herself.

 

[vsedriver]

Faith in what we believe is truth.

for you then it is “because I believe, then it is true”

for me it is “because it is true, I believe”

 

[CMatt25]

for you then it is “because I believe, then it is true”

for me it is “because it is true, I believe”

Well except I don’t necessarily insist at least not all of the time that I, a finite, fallible human has it all figured out. And in the meantime if I don’t, I’m placing faith in His infinite mercy to know my heart. But don’t you have to believe it is true?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Faith in what we believe is truth.

Faith CMatt25, we already discerned from your previous post Faith resides’s in Islam, Buddism, Christlam, etc etc etc? Where exactly does your faith reside? So the question remains how do you quantify Faith?

Some Protestants believe if a Cottonmouth doesn’t bite them the Holy Spirit reside’s in them. I call that foolishness not Faith. How about you?

Or as PR mentions with the paradigm that God doesn’t hate women.

Or with Calvin TULIP and Double Predestination.

OK, ANYWAY…

Others believe this and that in accord to the Bible. Basically comes back around to the OP. Depending where in Protestant land you reside depends on what you will believe, X learned behavior, which is most case’s doesn’t extend any futher than Luther and the reformation and these are the fortunate souls. And in many case’s this even drops below the 4th ecumenical council into doubt of the Incarnation and basic Christian belief.

Now, that you are not insisting Truth is subjective as you “did state above”? Then it must be objective.

Therefore you have reached a truth, which you then must firmly believe is true no matter what anyone else says, and relates back to the original discussion of Faith My question is what exactly is that Objective Truth since Jesus Christs ministry and death on the Cross, we can rest assure Jesus Christ is the Truth. The Objective truth didn’t begin in 1500, that you can be assured of also. It didn’t begin when the Bible arrived either, since as we see all which has arrived with that is Subjective in that one may basically believe whatever they feel is true? Is all that the “truth”? So what exactly is the Truth of this Faith called Christainity, where does it reside, remember now…Truth is not Subjective as you yourself state.

Just sayin CMatt25:shrug:

 

[CMatt25]

Faith CMatt25, we already discerned from your previous post Faith resides’s in Islam, Buddism, Christlam, etc etc etc? Where exactly does your faith reside? So the question remains how do you quantify Faith?

Some Protestants believe if a Cottonmouth doesn’t bite them the Holy Spirit reside’s in them. I call that foolishness not Faith. How about you?

Or as PR mentions with the paradigm that God doesn’t hate women.

Or with Calvin TULIP and Double Predestination.

OK, ANYWAY…

Others believe this and that in accord to the Bible. Basically comes back around to the OP. Depending where in Protestant land you reside depends on what you will believe, X learned behavior, which is most case’s doesn’t extend any futher than Luther and the reformation and these are the fortunate souls. And in many case’s this even drops below the 4th ecumenical council into doubt of the Incarnation and basic Christian belief.

Now, that you are not insisting Truth is subjective as you “did state above”? Then it must be objective.

Therefore you have reached a truth, which you then must firmly believe is true no matter what anyone else says, and relates back to the original discussion of Faith My question is what exactly is that Objective Truth since Jesus Christs ministry and death on the Cross, we can rest assure Jesus Christ is the Truth. The Objective truth didn’t begin in 1500, that you can be assured of also. It didn’t begin when the Bible arrived either, since as we see all which has arrived with that is Subjective in that one may basically believe whatever they feel is true? Is all that the “truth”? So what exactly is the Truth of this Faith called Christainity, where does it reside, remember now…Truth is not Subjective as you yourself state.

Just sayin CMatt25:shrug:

For starters I believe and have faith in God. In a Creator. Proof it though to an atheist so they have 100% absolute certainty. I believe and place faith in the NT story of Christ’s resurrection and ascension into heaven. I believe and have faith Jesus is Lord and Savior and shall come again. Proof it to someone of the Jewish faith or other non Christian faith. You see where this is going I think. Non Christians have their beliefs and faith. Catholics and Protestants have theirs. I know you believe and have faith that the Christian truth resides, has since day one, and continues to do so in the Catholic Church. It is where you place your faith and belief. Protestants have a different belief and understanding.

See we can’t begin to think we know the subjective one truth unless we first have faith and believe. Believing we have the one truth is not the same as knowing with 100% absolute certainty. Again I’m just sayin that’s why it’s called faith in the first place. God bless you and all of us along our walks of faith. And peace.

 

[Nicea325]

For starters I believe and have faith in God. In a Creator. Proof it though to an atheist so they have 100% absolute certainty. I believe and place faith in the NT story of Christ’s resurrection and ascension into heaven. I believe and have faith Jesus is Lord and Savior and shall come again. Proof it to someone of the Jewish faith or other non Christian faith. You see where this is going I think. Non Christians have their beliefs and faith. Catholics and Protestants have theirs. I know you believe and have faith that the Christian truth resides, has since day one, and continues to do so in the Catholic Church. It is where you place your faith and belief. Protestants have a different belief and understanding.

See we can’t begin to think we know the subjective one truth unless we first have faith and believe. Believing we have the one truth is not the same as knowing with 100% absolute certainty. Again I’m just sayin that’s why it’s called faith in the first place. God bless you and all of us along our walks of faith. And peace.

Sounds like relativism. But unfortunately, different views and opinions have no bearing on Absolute Truth. Again,I’ll say this again: Either Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to guide His Church forever or it was a big fat lie?

 

[CMatt25]

Sounds like relativism. But unfortunately, different views and opinions have no bearing on Absolute Truth. Again,I’ll say this again: Either Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to guide His Church forever or it was a big fat lie?

It might sound like that to you and others but it’s not really. I’ve repeatedly said there is truth. It’s just not everyone is totally correct obviously on what the whole realm of truth is. God, I have faith, is able to understand our hearts though. I think Protestants believe the HS guides His Church too. Peace.

 

[Nicea325]

It might sound like that to you and others but it’s not really. I’ve repeatedly said there is truth. It’s just not everyone is totally correct obviously on what the whole realm of truth is. God, I have faith, is able to understand our hearts though. I think Protestants believe the HS guides His Church too. Peace.

Okay,but there is a problem with your position. If Protestants believe the HS guides His Church too…the question being begged is:

WHICH CHURCH?

Evidently God the Holy Spirit cannot guide thousands of churches into different beliefs and doctrines-right?

Either absolute Truth exists for Christ Church or doesn’t at all?

 

[Luvtosew]

God and the Holy Spirit can do whatever they want. And apparently they wanted Prostestants as well as Catholics.

 

[Nicea325]

God and the Holy Spirit can do whatever they want. And apparently they wanted Prostestants as well as Catholics.

Even teach conflicting beliefs and teachings? I thought God was not the God of confusion?

 

[rinnie]

God and the Holy Spirit can do whatever they want. And apparently they wanted Prostestants as well as Catholics.

Agreed! I will go one step further. God wants everyone.

But the truth of the matter is there is Only One truth and it is revealed to us from the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.

But because God and the Holy Spirit CAN do whatever they want, does not mean they will. Why would the Holy Spirit come to confuse us? We are ALL called to be united together into one Church.

The bible itself says there is ONE HOLY CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC CHURCH.

So why would the word of God teach us this, and then teach different truths? He would not. The bible tells us so.

 

[rinnie]

Well except I don’t necessarily insist at least not all of the time that I, a finite, fallible human has it all figured out. And in the meantime if I don’t, I’m placing faith in His infinite mercy to know my heart. But don’t you have to believe it is true?

I know a falible human does not have it figured out. We are told that in scripture. We are told the Church is the Pilar of all truth and it is revealed to the Church by the Power of the Holy Spirit not a falible human.

While I totally agree God knows a heart and is indeed a mercfiul God has nothing to do with having the fullness of the truth.

But what does that have to do with having the fullness of the truth they we are promised from Christ to teach us in the Church? God never said our faith will lead us to the Truth, he said the Church is the fullness of the truth.