Why is there not a single Protestant Understanding of the Bible?

[PRmerger]

Now it seems to me that you think Catholics are better than other Christians, where do you get that from?? I’d like to know?

I’m pretty sure that you know that I’ve said that such a paradigm is, well, obnoxious. No Catholic ought to be proclaiming that she’s better than anyone else.

Now, where did I post that…let me do some research and see.

Ah, yes, here’s the thread posts, of which you were a participant, so you know very well that I have never said that Catholics are better than other Christians.

To wit:

I think we have to be careful saying a “Catholic” is better than a protestant …or that a particular Catholic is better than another Catholic…

Those, indeed, are obnoxious statements.

So it’s curious to me why you would pretend to not know that I said that, when I can cite lots of posts you made in that thread as evidence that you participated in this discussion.

 

[Luvtosew]

I’m pretty sure that you know that I’ve said that such a paradigm is, well, obnoxious. No Catholic ought to be proclaiming that she’s better than anyone else.

Now, where did I post that…let me do some research and see.

Ah, yes, here’s the thread posts, of which you were a participant, so you know very well that I have never said that Catholics are better than other Christians.

To wit:

So it’s curious to me why you would pretend to not know that I said that, when I can cite lots of posts you made in that thread as evidence that you participated in this discussion.

Yep and then your comeback
**"However, do you cringe if you hear a Catholic state that Catholicism has the fullness of Truth? **

can’t leave it go, and even tho you didn’t ask me that, yes I do cringe at that statement.

 

[PRmerger]

Yep and then your comeback
**"However, do you cringe if you hear a Catholic state that Catholicism has the fullness of Truth? **

can’t leave it go, and even tho you didn’t ask me that, yes I do cringe at that statement.

Then you ought to cringe when any Christian tells a Muslim that Christianity has the fullness of truth. Do you cringe when you hear a Christian say this, Luv?

 

[CMatt25]

Okay,but there is a problem with your position. If Protestants believe the HS guides His Church too…the question being begged is:

WHICH CHURCH?

Evidently God the Holy Spirit cannot guide thousands of churches into different beliefs and doctrines-right?

Either absolute Truth exists for Christ Church or doesn’t at all?

It’s not a problem. It’s just a fact of life. But you are correct. And that is one of the life’s questions.

 

[CMatt25]

CMatt with all respect I was going to comment earlier but I was distracted. I honestly believe you have subjective and objective confused? Perhaps its me.

Look here…

“we can’t begin to think we know the subjective one truth unless we first have faith and believe. Believing we have the one truth is not the same as knowing with 100% absolute certainty”

A subjective truth is an opinion. Its like stating Red apples taste better than Green:shrug:

Do you not see here reside’s the largest issue with Protestant interpretation? The truth isn’t an interpretation which results in an opinion. There is an Objective Truth, now you may not believe that, and I have no issue with that. But you should understand it. .

Gary, yes indeed thank you very much for correcting my flop. Sometimes in haste my mind even flips left and right and I don’t mean to. I’ve no doubt going from brain to keyboard this is what happened.

But anyway I do believe in truth. Even tend to in an objective one.

 

[CMatt25]

No, as the way you phrase the question already implies a division. I believe that Christ meant what He said. I believe that the phrase, “one Lord, one faith, one Baptism”, means just that. I believe all Christians ought to be united in His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, here in the Church Militant, just as they are in the Church Triumphant.

But your earlier statement implied that God was somehow instrumental, or at least complicit in the sad division of His Church. I do not believe that to be the case.
Jon

Jon, in reply to Luv’s question on whether you believe everyone should be Catholics or Protestants, one or the other, you answered no. If not, how can they then be united in one? Is it just that as a Lutheran Protestant, you have a different definition of what constitutes His Church?

 

[CMatt25]

Ha Ha I meant the multi-quote button. Like you do!!

Haven’t tried it in awhile but when I did, multi quote never worked for me.

 

[CMatt25]

See you know you and I need to agree to disagree.

Excellent point. Sometimes on life’s issues and questions, including on matters of faith and belief, it’s true that is just what has to be. God bless and peace.

 

[dontknow]

lol, no interpretation?

As I thought…

 

[JonNC]

=Anthony V;8909951]It’s very similar to antilegomena and homolegomena. However, the main difference lies in the purpose for doctrinal deduction (at least to my knowledge). Lutherans get their doctrine from the Sacred Scriptures. Catholics and eastern Orthodox receive doctrine from active Sacred Tradition (e.g. the Church), which is reflected in Sacred Scriptures.

This seems accurate, though Lutherans are very supportive of Tradition when it doesn’t conflict with scripture. For example, the creeds and early councils.

During the Bubonic plague, the Church sent out priests to confer last rites. These priests got sick and died. Eventually, we ended up with a shortage of priests. The Church decided to go ahead and conscript-ordain men as priests, even though they had yet to complete their seminary training. There were a certain few who would want to take advantage of the Church in her time of weakness. Eventually, some of these made their way up the totem pole, and caused internal turmoil. You had bishops and priests who were bishops and priests for all the wrong reasons. As you can imagine, this devastated the Church’s external charity, and thus catechesis. If the Bubonic plague never happened, there probably wouldn’t have been a reformation, because there wouldn’t really have been anything to reform.

This is a very interesting historical perspective.

If you’re someone like Luther who lived during that time, and leaned more towards direct Divine Sovereignty (intrinsically efficacious grace) than indirect Divine Sovereignty (co-operatively efficacious grace), you would look like a die-hard liberal when you’re really just a centralist.
You and I both know that Luther’s general idea of grace was right. It is conferred both by faith and by sacrament. Not just one or the other. We see how he was disturbed (and for good reason) a great deal in the “go to confession or hell” type of statement.
So when this more progressive definition of Sola Gratia fell into the hands of smart, but somewhat questionable people (like Calvin), it gets twisted and warped pretty easy when you don’t have an official magisterium to pronounce it as heresy (and there were a lot in the early Church). It’s like trying to imagine the early Church without Antioch and only a small handful of Church fathers. How can you defend against Gnosticism, or Arianism, or Pelagianism without those noble men and women? This splintering in even the interpretation of Sola Gratia itself become a deathtrap when trying to interpret views on the canon. Doctrine and dogma, while not the source of grace, definitely instruct the economic means of its distribution. I’m extraordinarily grateful that Luther held tight to the real presence. It’s in the common belief about the Eucharist that traditional Christians are held together much stronger than those who do not.

This, too, is an interesting perspective. thanks for both of them.

All that to say, we’re coming closer to reunification, prayer by prayer. I can only quote St. Faustina to fully express myself:
“Eternal God, in whom Mercy is endless and the treasury of compassion – inexhaustible, look kindly on us and increase Your Mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself. Amen.”

Amen.

Peace be with you,

And also with you.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Actually when coming to CAF I never knew such division existed. Something happened to start the Protestant reformation. Was it just an unhappy Luther?

I have no idea what the Chruch MIlitant or Church Triumphant is, can you explain that?

Sure. Briefly, the Church Militant is the Church (the faithful) here on Earth. The Church Triumphant is the Church (those faithful) in Heaven. Catholics would *** to this the Church Suffering, those in Purgatory.

Jon

 

[publicdj]

If Solo Scriptura is truly accurate in that not only is the Bible clear but that we could clearly understand it,then by test everyone with faith and effort should come to the same conclusions or at least a huge majority. Yet all the time I hear protestants say “that’s not what’s in the bible” when in discussion with Catholics even though no other protestant group may agree with them on their actual understanding. So why are there so many interpretations?

Same reason there are so many interpretations amongst Catholics.

 

[PRmerger]

Same reason there are so many interpretations amongst Catholics.

You are applying your Protestant paradigm to Catholicism, publicdj. And Catholicism doesn’t work that way.

There is no such thing as “so many different interpretations amongst Catholics.”

There is the Catholic Church’s teachings. And then there are those who divorce themselves from them.

 

[publicdj]

You are applying your Protestant paradigm to Catholicism, publicdj. And Catholicism doesn’t work that way.

There is no such thing as “so many different interpretations amongst Catholics.”

There is the Catholic Church’s teachings. And then there are those who divorce themselves from them.

nah, I don’t think so. Same applies in both cases. Some Catholics don’t believe in the Real Presence even though Catholic doctrine includes it. Some Protestant church doctrines proclaim the Virgin Birth although some of its members reject it. Same difference.

 

[PRmerger]

nah, I don’t think so. Same applies in both cases. Some Catholics don’t believe in the Real Presence even though Catholic doctrine includes it. Some Protestant church doctrines proclaim the Virgin Birth although some of its members reject it. Same difference.

And in the Protestant paradigm that each person can read the Scriptures and come to his own interpretation, there is no way to discern whether the Virgin Birth is true Christian doctrine or not.

This has led to the chaos and confusion of the tens of thousands of Christian denominations, each claiming that their own version of Christianity is correct.

And! due to this Protestant paradigm, none can tell the other that their interpretation is incorrect.

However! In Catholicism, there is simply One Faith, One Baptism, One Truth–and those that deviate from this have departed from the faith given, once for all, to the saints.

 

[1voice]

I was a protestant for 30 years, I have a little insight. As my priest pointed out, during my instruction to the CC, at its basis, protestantism is in protest. This is the “you can’t tell me what to think” attitude.

The thinking that you describe is very much alive within the CC as well as without.
Nancy Pelosi… Example is not a lone wolf … Ted Kennedy was far from being alone in his cafeteria style Catholicism. … And let me also say that I think it is totally wrong behavior.
I was a Catholic for almost 25 years. Catholic grammar school, altar boy, Ad Altare Dei Boy Scout… My Dad was President of the Catholic Parent/ Teachers Assn … and head of the Bingo Committee … …and Catholic for 45 yrs. We still have close ties with lots of Catholics… From close up experience over all those years … There is a very significant number of people that call themselves Catholic and do the religious things that Catholics do …and that simply pick and choose what they believe… … and how they behave… and have absolutely no intentions of changing. You, and those that read this may not like or accept what I am saying but it is reality… you dont have to call yourself a Protestant in order to fundamentally ignore what the Catholic Church teaches.

 

[PRmerger]

The thinking that you describe is very much alive within the CC as well as without.
Nancy Pelosi is not a lone wolf. Ted Kennedy was far from being alone in his cafeteria style Catholicism. I was a Catholic for almost 25 years. Catholic grammar school, altar boy, Ad Altare Dei Boy Scout… My Dad was President of the Catholic Parent/ Teachers Assn … and head of the Bingo Committee … …and Catholic for 45 yrs. We still have close ties with lots of Catholics… From close up experience over all those years … There is a very significant number of people that call themselves Catholic and do the religious things that Catholics do …and that simply pick and choose what they believe… … and how they behave… and have absolutely no intentions of changing. You, and those that read this may not like or accept what I am saying but it is reality… you dont have to call yourself a Protestant in order to to fundamentally ignore what the Catholic Church teaches.

You are exactly right.

And the statement bolded expresses the truth in a way that you don’t even realize, probably.

There is what the Church teaches, and then there are those who deviate from that teaching. They are not permitted to do this.

And herein lies the great difference between the above paradigm and Protestantism. In Protestantism this model is the foundation and the rule. Not a deviation.

 

[1voice]

You are exactly right.

And the statement bolded expresses the truth in a way that you don’t even realize, probably.

There is what the Church teaches, and then there are those who deviate from that teaching. They are not permitted to do this.

And herein lies the great difference between the above paradigm and Protestantism. In Protestantism this model is the foundation and the rule. Not a deviation.

It was not, in any way, my intention to make a value judgement on Protestant vs Catholic theology. I was simply pointing out, to Newsy, that he/she doesnt have to look back at where he/she came from to find a significant number of people that wield the “you can’t tell me what to think” attitude.

 

[PRmerger]

It was not, in any way, my intention to make a value judgement on Protestant vs Catholic theology. I was simply pointing out, to Newsy, that he/she doesnt have to look back at where he/she came from to find a significant number of people that wield the “you can’t tell me what to think” attitude.

Oh, I did not interpret it to mean you had made any value judgment, 1voice.

I simply am saying that while the Protestant paradigm celebrates the “you can’t tell me what to think” paradigm; the Catholic Church says, “Here’s the truth. Embrace it!”

 

[Luvtosew]

Oh, I did not interpret it to mean you had made any value judgment, 1voice.

I simply am saying that while the Protestant paradigm celebrates the “you can’t tell me what to think” paradigm; the Catholic Church says, “Here’s the truth. Embrace it!”

Can’t agree more, Heres the truth, embrace it, some people can’t, their minds won’t let them. Its not a protest, its just a different way of seeing things,

One should not stereotype Protestants or Catholics. Not everyone can fit into a mold.