Why is there not a single Protestant Understanding of the Bible?

[PRmerger]

and also can you explain the sacrifice of the Mass to me. thank you.

The Sacrifice of the Mass is our participation in the ONE SACRIFICE of Christ.

It is eternal.

 

[PRmerger]

1. Now does the person who receives the Eucharist need to believe that it is the real flesh, real blood, soul and divinity of Christ to receive any benefit? (I know we are not to take unworthingly)
2. Or does it matter if the person who receives doesn’t believe it is the flesh and blood, would that person still receive the benefit?

First you’ll have to explain what you mean by 'the benefit". Not sure what you mean.

Now, of course I’m sure you know, whether the person receiving actually believes in the Real Presence is irrelevant as to whether Christ is actually present. It’s not the person’s belief that makes Jesus present, but the power of the Holy Spirit, acting through the priest.

 

[Luvtosew]

Ok, so here’s another problem with your paradigm, Luv.

No man is infallible?

Really?

Can you tell me where St. Mark erred in his Gospel?

What about St. Luke? What error did he write in his Gospel?

They were apostles in the time of Christ, and thats what we have to go by, lets face it the RCC had some bad popes, but thats besides the point,

Tell me about the sacrifice at Mass?
And can one take the Eucharist and not believe and still receive the benefits?

I’ve answered your questions.

 

[Luvtosew]

The Sacrifice of the Mass is our participation in the ONE SACRIFICE of Christ.

It is eternal.

Its a little more than that isn’t it.

I’ve read its Christ, that Christ comes down by the power of the Priest and the HS, and then the Priest offers it back up to God the father, and also to the people at Mass.

Is that how it works. Of course its non bloody,

 

[PRmerger]

They were apostles in the time of Christ, and thats what we have to go by,

So, are we clear that you actually do believe that men can be infallible.

You are ready to concede that point, yes?

Yes, we will say that you are only going to agree that apostles were infallible…

but are you willing to admit that MEN can be infallible?

Yes, or no?

 

[PRmerger]

Its a little more than that isn’t it.

Oh, to be sure.

The Mass is the renewal and perpetuation of the sacrifice of the cross in the sense that it offers [Jesus] anew to God . . . and thus commemorates the sacrifice of the cross, reenacts it symbolically and mystically, and applies the fruits of Christ’s death upon the cross to individual human souls. All the efficacy of the Mass is derived, therefore, from the sacrifice of Calvary" source

I suggest you read this.

And this.

And listen to this.

 

[Luvtosew]

Oh, to be sure.

The Mass is the renewal and perpetuation of the sacrifice of the cross in the sense that it offers [Jesus] anew to God . . . and thus commemorates the sacrifice of the cross, reenacts it symbolically and mystically, and applies the fruits of Christ’s death upon the cross to individual human souls. All the efficacy of the Mass is derived, therefore, from the sacrifice of Calvary" source

I suggest you read this.

And this.

And listen to this.

It’s quite simple, really. The Mass is called an unbloody sacrifice to clarify the fact that we do not behold the Lord’s bloody body as it was seen on Calvary. Instead his body and blood are under the appearances of bread and wine. But it is the same sacrifice. This distinction became necessary as the result of the denial of the Mass being a sacrifice by various Protestant groups.

so his body and blood, are under the appearances of bread and wine,

but the bread and wine is not Christ?

so the sacrifice of Christ is being offered to us in communion?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, PRmerger,

I struggled with all my might to get through math … and to find such a proposition in your post is quite distressing … Please - refrain for any more math examples…

I just joined … and am reading as fast as I can.

But you know… I would be interested in how, with all this prayer and discernment … that the Holy Spirit would tell one group of Protestants that Baptism is required and another that it is an option, that one group of Protestants believe that there are Three Persons in One God, while some believe there is only one person, that Christ really did change Bread and Wine into His Body, Blood, Human Soul and Divinity - and some just say it is a memorial service.

These are examples of outright contradictions - not nuanced differences. The key of course is that there are no unifying beliefs in Protestantism when taken as a whole - this is why there are 30,000+ various and competing denominations. Really, SS represents the ultimate repudiation of God’s Word through the diverse personal interpretations of men.

God bless

Here’s the difference:

Let’s take an analogy of a grad student in Math:

Your proposition: Many grad students, believing in their professor’s authority on all matters Mathematic, have a need then to be told by this authority what to do and what to believe about everything. That’s their faith.

The actual situation: Many grad students, listen to the words and teachings of their Math professor on all matters Mathematic, have a need to understand the why and the how and come to an understanding of its truth.

http://mbaat50.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/complex-formula1.gif

Thus, as Cardinal John Henry Newman said: “Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt, for a man may be annoyed that he cannot work out a mathematical problem, without doubting that it admits an answer”.

So, even if the mathematical problem above looks confusing, and I accept the professor’s authority that it is true, I need to work it out for myself.

 

[PRmerger]

so his body and blood, are under the appearances of bread and wine,

but the bread and wine is not Christ?

Yes, the consecrated bread and wine ARE Christ’s body, blood, soul and divinity.

so the sacrifice of Christ is being offered to us in communion?

No, that is not the correct conclusion, Luv.

The Sacrifice of Christ is being offered at the Mass.

At Communion we receive his glorified body/blood/soul and divinity.

Could you please just answer with a yes or no: do you believe now that it’s possible for men to be infallible? (Let’s agree that it’s the Apostles only who were infallible).

 

[PRmerger]

Hi, PRmerger,

I struggled with all my might to get through math … and to find such a proposition in your post is quite distressing … Please - refrain for any more math examples…

Hiya, Tom!

Request duly noted.

I just joined … and am reading as fast as I can.

 

[Luvtosew]

Yes, the consecrated bread and wine ARE Christ’s body, blood, soul and divinity.

No, that is not the correct conclusion, Luv.

The Sacrifice of Christ is being offered at the Mass.

At Communion we receive his glorified body/blood/soul and divinity. so now its his glorified body. yes I do agree he probably has a glorified body, not a human body anymore.

Could you please just answer with a yes or no: do you believe now that it’s possible for men to be infallible? (Let’s agree that it’s the Apostles only who were infallible).

yes all men are infallible, except one Christ.

 

[PRmerger]

yes all men are infallible, except one Christ.

I think you are trying to say that all men are fallible.

So, then, please tell us what error St. Mark made in his Gospel.

Just one would be fine.

Thanks.

 

[Luvtosew]

I don’t believe the Bible is infallible or the men who wrote it as it was inspired writing by the HS given by God himself.

 

[Anthony_V]

I just don’t think that the pope is infallible (same as some other people), as no man is , those letters are online, the bible is the Bible now , no sense adding to it or taking away from it.

The pope himself is not infallible, no. The chair of Peter-- the office of the papacy, is. The Church as an entirety has a charism of infallibility. That is, when the magisterium, in cooperation with the Pope, elect to make a decision in ex Cathedra, it is held by said charism. Now, things can be held in ordinary magisterium (things that haven’t been proclaimed as dogma, but are taught as doctrine). For example, the Copernicus incident, in which the Church upheld the geocentric belief rather than the heliocentric belief. It should also be taken into account that the Church does not proclaim dogma unless a heresy of some sort arises. While the Church has proclaimed dogma many times (to my knowledge), the Pope has only proclaimed dogma once: the Immaculate Conception. It would be tedious to find, examine, and affirm any documents that the Holy See has made an authoritative decision on. If you’re up to the challenge, the Vatican library is open to the public.

Now I believe in the Real Presence, not in the transubstantiation way, I believe it is the faith of the person receiving the Eucharist.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 11:27[/BIBLEDRB]

How could one, in good faith (and with full intention) still receive the Eucharist unworthily? Desecration of the Eucharist is quite the opposite of a good work, and cannot be produced by good faith. A good tree does not produce bad fruit. So, if the Real Presence is subjective as you say (and not objective), it would be troublesome to assume that someone could desecrate the Eucharist (as shown in the verse), if good faith is required for the real presence to take place. :twocents:

 

[PRmerger]

yes all men are infallible, except one Christ.

And this is a curious point: how do you know that Christ was infallible?

Is it because a man wrote it in the Scriptures and you believe the Scriptures?

Well, that means 2 things:

-you believe that the man who wrote that Christ was infallible (or words to that effect) had to have been infallible when he wrote it, right?

-and you have to believe that the Church that discerned for you that the letter this man wrote was from God was infallible too, right?

So just by saying that Christ is infallible, you’ve acknowledged that you believe *another *man was (the author of the book in the bible that told you Christ is infallible)

AND

that the Church is infallible.

 

[Anthony_V]

I don’t believe the Bible is infallible or the men who wrote it as it was inspired writing by the HS given by God himself.

Do you believe the Bible is a fallible collection of infallible books, or an infallible collection of infallible books?
That is to say, do you believe the table of contents in your Bible is infallible, or just the books themselves?

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t believe the Bible is infallible or the men who wrote it as it was inspired writing by the HS given by God himself.

You don’t believe the Bible is infallible? Then how do you know where it’s right and where it’s wrong?

You can’t know, then, that Christ died for your sins! That’s from the “fallible” Bible! :bigyikes:

 

[tqualey]

Hi, 1Voice,

What a truly sad experience you had.

Thinking of suicide is truly extreme - this is an area where there is no light for one’s life and no hope and continuing on is just too painful. I am truly sorry that your former Pastor was not helpful to you at this time. One consideration, however, is that such depressive thinking isn’t just about life - it is about everything. If you are contemplating taking your own life, you really can not be looking clearly at other realities with objectivity and discernment. Of course, this happened many years ago - and some memories are better off left alone.

I am happy that you are at peace now.

But, you should be aware that people (beginning with Catholic Clergy) fail others. No group is beyond failing another group. No individual is immune from major personal failures - both in not meeting your needs and in giving public scandal. Our Faith must be in Christ and not in men - and we must all keep this fully in mind.

God bless

I had no protest in me when I left. Still dont 40 years later. If someone finds what they need in a Catholic Church … God bless em!
I left because I saw people being drawn to Christ and discovering, for the first time …a deep, abiding relationship with Christ … that the Pastor of our Parish openly disdained.
When I went through a time of deep despair and confusion, plagued with thoughts of suicide (It was bad) … the Catholic Clergy that I tried to confide in expressed anger and judgement. I lost trust when I realized that there was no peace or clarity in what they had to give in fact there was only more pain. I had enough perception to realize that they were just mouthing a wrote pattern that simply didnt work. When I discovered real peace… It was in spite of what I had experienced when I approached Catholic Clergy. It was, and is Christ that brought me through and it had nothing to do with Catholicism when I finally knew that I was free. Christ is the one I cling to. Christ is the one I love. If that is considered protest … So be it.

 

[Luvtosew]

The Catholic position

The Church teaches that the Mass is the re-presentation of the sacrifice of Calvary, which also is invariably misunderstood by anti-Catholics. The Catholic Church does not teach that the Mass is a re-crucifixion of Christ, who does not suffer and die again in the Mass.

Yet, it is more than just a memorial service. John A. O’Brien, writing in The Faith of Millions, said, “The manner in which the sacrifices are offered is alone different: On the cross Christ really shed his blood and was really slain; in the Mass, however, there is no real shedding of blood, no real death; but the separate consecration of the **bread and of the wine symbolizes the separation of the body and blood of Christ and thus symbolizes his death upon the cross. **The Mass is the renewal and perpetuation of the sacrifice of the cross in the sense that it offers [Jesus] anew to God . . . and thus commemorates the sacrifice of the cross, reenacts it symbolically and mystically, and applies the fruits of Christ’s death upon the cross to individual human souls. All the efficacy of the Mass is derived, therefore, from the sacrifice of Calvary” (306

This was taken from your souce article PR , so the bread and wine are symbols and so is thee sacrifice, and also a mystery.

Also why is it necessary to offer Chris anew to God again, every day? for our sins.

 

[Luvtosew]

You don’t believe the Bible is infallible? Then how do you know where it’s right and where it’s wrong?

You can’t know, then, that Christ died for your sins! That’s from the “fallible” Bible! :bigyikes:

I believe the Bible is true, you always resay my words.