Why is there opposition to Vatican 2?

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For whatever reason though, life moved on. Life happens. Language is funny like that. And the church would have done better by matching it.
I find it not quite convincing that “the church would have done better by matching it.” There are countless centuries that Mass was in Latin, in which there was countless saints, and a dominant Catholic culture. The Church was not doing that bad…
To me, this should be a time when the True Presence makes even more sense, rather than less. In light of Quantum Physics, the nature of matter is even more mysterious than ever. But when the Church relies on Aristotle’s philosophy to explain it, it sounds harder to believe than it should be. And not budging on this is a mistake. Aristotle is not God… or even a Christian.
The mystery of what happens at Mass is just that a mystery. Transubstantiation is beyond human competition. Hence, my comment about liking Masses in other languages. That is not to say that it cannot be useful to understand the readings for example. Us pretending to know more then we can does not help. I venture to say that quantum physics cannot explain the mystery any better then what Aquinas did using Aristotle’s thought. I would be interested (on another thread) to hear your attempt of explaining it using quantum physics.
 
The mystery of what happens at Mass is just that a mystery. Transubstantiation is beyond human competition. Hence, my comment about liking Masses in other languages. That is not to say that it cannot be useful to understand the readings for example. Us pretending to know more then we can does not help. I venture to say that quantum physics cannot explain the mystery any better then what Aquinas did using Aristotle’s thought. I would be interested (on another thread) to hear your attempt of explaining it using quantum physics.
I don’t really have an attempt per se. It’s more of a “Hmm…Back to the drawing board…” The more we learn about the universe, the more we know what we don’t know. The nature of matter… or even space and dimensions… are not settled. They’re so unsettled that when Einstein was first confronted with it, he recoiled (his system was more of a compliment to Newton’s universe). I don’t have a specific answer, but when I just Googled looking for guidance, it seems I’m not the only one who thought this (not that I ever thought so… but this has just been isolated opinion on my part):

This priest, Father Michael Kelly, said the same thing:


“Regrettably, all too frequently, the only Presence focused on is Christ’s presence in the elements of bread and wine. Inadequately described as the change of the ‘substance’ (not the ‘accidents’) of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ, the mystery of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist carries the intellectual baggage of a physics no one accepts. Aristotelian physics makes such nice, however implausible and now unintelligible, distinctions. They are meaningless in the post-Newtonian world of quantum physics, which is the scientific context we live in today.” one need not necessarily explain it in terms of the particles in the bread and wine."
 
Thanks.
But my point remains is that the Jews now speak a vernacular Hebrew language which is different than Biblical Hebrew. No one speaks Biblical Hebrew anymore. Yet Jews still read aloud their Torah in Biblical Hebrew NOT modern vernacular Hebrew. And it’s the same with Quranic Arabic for Muslims. No one speaks the language of the Quran anymore.

So my only point I want to make here is that it is not only Catholics who are using an ancient language that is not vernacular in their religious matters.

As to whether the Church should still use Latin I have no strong opinion. This is because I think it is just a pastoral issue. So whatever works is fine. Personally I love Latin so would be sad to see it go but that’s just me. I don’t wish to impose this on others.
 
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I don’t think that’s the issue here.
I think it’s more accurate to say “sometimes people don’t like other people changing things for changing’s sake”

I’m sure the “people” you mentioned would like to change to something else from the current. so they do like change. they’re just disagreeing on what change.
 
Thanks.

But my point remains is that the Jews now speak a vernacular Hebrew language which is different than Biblical Hebrew. No one speaks Biblical Hebrew anymore. Yet Jews still read aloud their Torah in Biblical Hebrew NOT modern vernacular Hebrew. And it’s the same with Quranic Arabic for Muslims. No one speaks the language of the Quran anymore.

So my only point I want to make here is that it is not only Catholics who are using an ancient language that is not vernacular in their religious matters.

As to whether the Church should still use Latin I have no strong opinion. This is because I think it is just a pastoral issue. So whatever works is fine. Personally I love Latin so would be sad to see it go but that’s just me. I don’t wish to impose this on others.
Oh I get ya. You mean in the religious context. A lot of them need it explained though (and that depends on the insight of a Rabbi…). Same with classical Arabic. But many Muslims at least have a thriving education system for that. Just the average kid on the street will be lost (at least those that aren’t strictly Arabic… like Egyptians).

But language should be direct, without these middle men.
 
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That recent thread was closed by the moderators for good reason. There is way too much vagueness about Vatican II as presented here.
I just finished reading the entire previous thread. Please note it wasn’t closed by the moderators for content, it simply reached the max. 14 days without a reply and closed automatically. Moderators have been more lenient here than on the previous version of the forums, as far as I can see. Good.

Previous thread: heart breaking if you read it all at once. It’s clear there is a vast range of opinion. Most of the opinions on both sides seem well grounded in facts. We should all–at all times–keep in mind that this forum attracts a self-selected group: we are all interested in religion, either in a positive or a negative way. The vast majority of people have no interest at all and don’t show up here.

Two versions of Vatican II (Benedict, see links above): The council of the Fathers and the council of the media. He’s right, of course. And yes, edwest, I was there too. I was beginning college when Vat. II ended. I didn’t pay much attention at the time, other than the occasional atrticle in Life or Time. Nor did I pay much attention until a host of things began changing around me; then I perked up. But it wasn’t until the last 20 years or so that I actually began reading about the council. And I’m probably a lot more engaged than most people.
 
more…

Lack of communication: Others have commented on this, so I will too. I can only remember one (1) instance when the priest bothered to mention a change–it was when we switched from “and also with you” to “and with your spirit.” He devoted his sermon to the change, had us practice, and reminded us of the correct wording for the next few weeks whenever it came up during Mass. But that’s the only time I’ve heard a peep about all the changes from the pulpit–50+ years of dead silence. Why? Every church has a bulletin–what prevents the pastor from devoting a page each week to a specific topic? And of course putting those pages on their web site? Nothing. I’m sure some churches do it, but I’ve never seen it.

My point is that you can’t complain about the ignorance of the parishioners in one breath and then never, ever communicate with them. And bishops, like any executives, are just as far removed from the ordinary Catholic in the pew as is the president of GM from the assembly line workers. And it seems to me that priests are remote too, although I’m sure there are exceptions–some make an effort to find out what their parishioners think.

If you want to “blame” someone for not communicating what Vat. II was all about, I know where I would start–the Church. There was deafening silence. (Encyclicals, etc. are all very well and good, but they don’t reach the average person in the pew. It’s like publishing an article on tax reform in The Journal of the American Taxation Association and then wondering why the ordinary person is so ill-informed.) To most of us in the pews, it seemed like the Church was, on one hand, saying “We’ve realized each individual is really important, and we want each individual to take a bigger role” and then on the other hand the Church said, “And, oh, by the way, here’s what we’ve decided to do–please fall in line and don’t ask questions.” Whoa!!! Talk about conflicting messages!!!

That’s why I’m a big fan of polls–Pew, Gallup, etc. It’s the only way to get an objective view of what Catholics (defined in different ways) actually think. It does no good to go through life with blinders on. It’s much better to know what’s going on.
 
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And yet more…

Latin: I also studied Latin for four years in high school. Some people here give the impression that “everything” was in Latin. It was just the Mass and sacraments (and please don’t nit pick–we’re talking “to ordinary people” here). Missals gave Latin on one page and English on the other. And if you didn’t know what “Dominus vobiscum” meant after a few years, that’s just sad, not to mention inexplicable. The same with most other prayers that were recited–Sanctus, Pater Noster, Gloria, Creed, etc. There might be an odd word here and there you wouldn’t understand, but for the most part these prayers in Latin are perfectly understandable to an ordinary English-speaking person (not to mention Spanish-speaking…). Latin was a unifying factor. Today, when you’re on vacation you’re faced with Masses in French, Italian, German, etc. Fatima: Yes, I’ve been. The nightly procession sings “Immaculate Mary” in different languages–each national group in its own language. To me, it would be much more effective–and of course show the unity of the Church–if they all sang in Latin.

My own local parish has perhaps 5-10% Africans (not African-Americans, immigrants from Africa). Today, for example, the entire choir was African, singing in their native language and dressed in the native clothes. In a sense, this is good, but in a sense it just separates them from the rest of the parish. The same with Spanish Masses–another church in the area has a Spanish Mass, which is always packed. But try to find a Spanish-speaking person at an English Mass–non-existent. Those who attend English Masses are not even aware of the large number of Hispanics in the parish. How does this help unity?

Music: Others have mentioned “active participation.” As you know, Benedict pointed out that “active participation” can be with the mind, not just the body and voice. Could you zone out during a Latin Mass? Sure. Could you zone out during a Novus Ordo (hey…Latin!) Mass? Sure. It took more “active participation” to follow the Latin Mass simply because you needed to be aware of where the priest was in the missal.

For years I have done a personal experiment: I count the 10 people closest to me when we are supposed to be singing–how many actually are? Usually the count is 0 (zero). Once in a while it’s gets up to 4 out of 10. For several years I attended a Novus Ordo Mass that sang all the songs in Latin, in Gergorian chants. The count: 10 of 10. Always. Consistently. So which one encouraged “active participation”? The point of Gregorian chant is that virtually anyone can sing it.

Change: A lot of comments here imply (or state) that people just dislike change for change’s sake. That is naive at best and insulting at worst. It assumes there are no valid reasons for disliking specific changes other than disliking change for its own sake. But there are reasons to dislike the changes. There are libraries of books devoted to the subject. I dislike many of the post-Vatican II changes. But I have specific reasons, which I have read and thought about, for my opinions. And there are some changes where I can see both positive and negative effects.
 
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and finally…

Liberals vs. Conservatives: I think this is a misleading way to divide people in a religious context. I’m sure there are groups of people who line up as “Liberal” or “Conservative” on every single issue. But for most people it depends on the issue. Personally, I’m sure I would be on the “Conservative” side if the issue was the liturgy. But if it’s Biblical interpretation, I would be considered a “Liberal” (some on this forum have even called me an atheist. One person wrote that “no one thinks the way you do”–I was paraphrasing Augustine and Aquinas.) Abortion. Sin. Women priests. There is a long list of issues, and I doubt that many people are rigidly “Conservative” or “Liberal” on all the issues. And of course if the one doing the labelling is him/herself on the extremes either way, then everyone else appears to be relatively “Conservative” or “Liberal.”
 
I once commented to a co-worker that before Vatican II, I could travel anywhere in the world and hear the Mass exactly the same as it was said in my local parish. It didn’t matter whether one traveled to Italy, Spain, Greece, Germany, or Nigeria: the Mass was exactly the same everywhere.

Back then, though, fewer people could afford to travel. Now, more people can travel, but now when they attend Mass in various countries, the Mass is not the same!

Also, it should be noted that the Mass is a prayer directed to the Father, offering the sacrifice of the Son for the salvation of mankind while invoking the Holy Spirit. Read especially the first Eucharistic Prayer to see to Whom the prayer is directed. It is not for evangelization. It is for worship.
 
The Mass isn’t just for prayer… but also can be a witness. Paul himself instructed people to not even speak in foreign tongues through the Spirit, when outsiders came in to visit. He obviously cared about providing a good witness to them. Not merely being insular.

"So if the whole church meets in one place and everyone speaks in tongues, and then uninstructed people or unbelievers should come in, will they not say that you are out of your minds?" - 1 Cor 14:23
If he provided instruction even on speaking in Spirit, how much moreso on normal speaking?

And when he does talk about matters relating between church members, he placed teaching and prophecy in plain language (with explanation) above all. This was not an apostle who wanted mere ineffable mysteries or feelings to rule the church.

"Now I should like all of you to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. One who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be built up. Now, brothers, if I should come to you speaking in tongues, what good will I do you if I do not speak to you by way of revelation, or knowledge, or prophecy, or instruction? Likewise, if inanimate things that produce sound, such as flute or harp, do not give out the tones distinctly, how will what is being played on flute or harp be recognized? And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? Similarly, if you, because of speaking in tongues, do not utter intelligible speech, how will anyone know what is being said? For you will be talking to the air. [14:5-9]
 
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It is not for evangelization. It is for worship.
Wow,

THat’s odd to Eastern ears.

From our perspective, Liturgy is the primary source of catechesis . . .

The reason I was blown away the first time I encountered the Divine Liturgy is that it’s a rather complete statement of the Fatih.

hawk
 
Wow,

THat’s odd to Eastern ears.

From our perspective, Liturgy is the primary source of catechesis . . .

The reason I was blown away the first time I encountered the Divine Liturgy is that it’s a rather complete statement of the Fatih.

hawk
You guys even have that famous saying… “Come and see.”

It’s odd to my ears to though. And would be to the Protestants as well.
 
Something interesting to consider.

The Mass is split up into two parts: the Mass of the Catechumens (introductory rites, Liturgy of the Word, and homily) and the Mass of the Faithful (Liturgy of the Eucharist onwards to the Concluding Rites). As far as I know, in the Mass of the early Church, catechumens were not present for the consecration until their initiation into the Church. Even today, catechumens can be dismissed from Mass during RCIA for a lesson while the Mass of the Faithful occurs.

The purpose of Mass, while it should not be devoid of catechesis and could bring people into the Church, is not for witness. It is to unite the Body of Christ with Him at Calvary.
 
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