Why is there opposition to Vatican 2?

[dochawk]

But the point is, the Eucharistic Liturgy is a re-presentation of the sacrifice of Calvary, an offering to the Father, and the worship owed by a creature to his Creator. It is not for our edification or entertainment. It is our worship offered to God.

Again, you’re speaking Western (and the Mass), not Eastern (and the Divine Liturgy).

hawk

 

[dallas_r]

there are more important things to enforce in my opinion if you want participation and actual attendance by a wide number of people.

I also understand your side of this. Thing is, I don’t really care how many Catholics there are (in this context). If someone leaves a Church because their music is average (which chants are not), they are not true Catholics. A faithful few is better than a flock that turns on their shepherd. Then we get into how VII made the mass more protestant like, which some suspect was to attract converts.

 

[Pup7]

I think it’s more about survival than attracting converts, to be honest. (And before someone points out I’m a convert, I wasn’t drawn for the music, but I know what I hear people say when the pianist - because that’s all we have - is out and there is zero accompaniment available. And I am not an advocate of “Protestantizing” the Mass - and I’ll also say that not every Protestant church is flashing lyrics on the screen and having a band on a stage, not by far.)

But if enough leave to close a parish, that’s a problem. Not saying that would happen over music, but you never know. Saying “no pianist” is to me a bit of overkill - but then again, that was written fifty-plus years ago.

On base, we’re lucky if we have a two person choir. That’s hardly enough to lead an entire congregation (said a former choir member). The purpose of the choir IS to technically lead the congregation. If you don’t have the vocalists or you don’t have the numbers, that’s not possible. It’s not an excuse. It’s a fact.

 

[Augustinian]

And not everyone has a choir capable of leading a cappella in a way that will keep people in the pews.

Not everyone has a capable organist or pianist for that matter.

The church does have a long history of vocal music dating back many centuries- if our Church of Christ friends with less than 200 years behind them can handle it , I think Catholic Church is even better equipped

 

[Erikaspirit16]

I will assume you are not reading the Church documents, nor the Church explanation as to why the Council was called, and it would sound as if you may not have read the 16 documents.

Church documents? Yes, all the time. If you look at my posts, I’m constantly posting links. The Church’s explanation of why the Council was called? Yup, read it. Read all 16 Vat. II reports? No, I have not. I freely admit it. I never claimed I did.

Your comments about the Protestant observers would be hilarious if it were not based on pure, unadulterated speculation and repeated lies. There was nothing in the Council that was aimed at “Protestantizing” the Church, or meeting them “halfway”.

--this refers to my first post here, #2.

Hilarious? Speculation? Lies? I’m not sure about that. “…the Second Vatican Council was early commandeered and manipulated and infected by modernist, liberalist, and protestantizing persons and ideas. These writings show further that the new liturgy produced by the Vatican “Consilium” group, under the late Archbishop A. Bugnini, was similarly infected.” --Fr. Steven Somerville, original (and for 10 years) member of ICEL, which translated the Mass. He wrote an open letter of apology for his part in the “translation” of the Mass in 2002. This is a quotation from his letter of apology. But let’s read on—

"We must strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be the shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren, that is for the Protestants… " This is Fr. Annibale Bugnini, writing in 1965. Bugnini had been involved in “reforming” the liturgy since 1948. He was the secretary of the commission that drafted the Vat. II document on the liturgy. Bugnini was removed from his teaching post for being “too liberal” on liturgy…yet he was tremendously influencial (decisive?) in the Council.

Or, try this one: "The intention of Pope Paul VI with regard to what is commonly called the Mass, was to reform the Catholic Liturgy in such a way that it should almost coincide with the Protestant liturgy. There was with Pope Paul VI an ecumenical intention to remove, or, at least to correct, or, at least to relax, what was too Catholic in the traditional sense in the Mass and, I repeat, to get the Catholic Mass closer to the Calvinist mass” --this from Jean Guitton, a friend of Paul VI, in a radio interview in French, Dec. 19, 1993.

Maybe it’s all fake news. But a casual search found too many quotations about this subject to post here–or to ignore. Feel free to do your own searches and draw your own conclusions.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

part 2…

Your examples show an inability to distinguish what was intended solely as a broad brush picture, for example, of liturgy, and you see the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy as setting out the disciplinary rules of it, rather than as a document intended to guide forward. You see in in absolutest terms, and it was never intended as such.

I’m frankly not quite sure what that means, so it’s hard to respond. If you mean the report on the liturgy was meant to set the general outlines, but not the details, I completely agree. And that became the problem–the details were left to…[fill in your own adjectives]. My all-time favorite example is the appointment of Michael Spillane, a convicted (not accused, mind you, convicted) child abuser who was de-frocked. What was he put in charge of? Children’s liturgies, of course! They never checked his references or background. Incredible, but true.

Liturgy was most definitely not handed over to the laity

Not quite sure where that’s coming from. In the years after Vat. II a lot of people were involved–including lay people. In every parish in the US there is a liturgy committee–all lay people. I’m all for GIRM. But I’ve met too many priests that say “What’s that?” when you mention it. And “the rules are followed”? Please. Give me a break. That’s not hilarious, that’s ludicrous. It’s certainly better than it was (thanks Benedict), but simply read the letters to the editor in Adoremus, where people write in asking about weird practices in their parishes.

It is hilarious that you think removing Latin was eliminating the unifying elements of the Mass

It’s even more hilarious that you didn’t read what I wrote. Here it is again: “Latin was a unifying factor.” Note: “a” unifying factor, not “the” unifying factor. I choose my words carefully. Feel free to attack what I write, but don’t attack what I don’t write. Do you deny that Latin was “a” unifying factor? If it’s not, then why is it still the official language of the Church? Nostalgia for the Roman Empire? And yes, of course I’m aware of various other rites, but in terms of the bulk of the Catholic population in the US, they are relatively insignificant.

 

[goout]

goout:

They need to be paid fairly, and have a lot of schooling and associate bills.

I’m always amazed that the UK has so many amazing organists given that so many are not paid a penny, except in cathedrals or the most prestigious of churches. In fact it’s rare to find anyone who is paid for anything in a parish. Is it widespread in the USA to pay for organists, liturgical planners (whatever they are), etc. as I’ve seen a few posts which refer to such appointments?

How do these unpaid organists/liturgists live and eat and provide for their families?

 

[goout]

Our pipe organ was recently “tuned” and refitted. It’s about 30 years old I believe. It cost about $40,000.

 

[Maximilian75]

I know at my parish our organist is part-time- he does organ on the weekends and HDO’s and then works a different job on weekdays

 

[goout]

I know at my parish our organist is part-time- he does organ on the weekends and HDO’s and then works a different job on weekdays

Weekday masses? Funerals? Weddings? Staff planning with the priests?
Choir rehearsals? Finding musicians for Easter Vigil and Christmas? Rehearsing with cantors?
Is he willing to teach laypeople Gregorian Chant?
He can do all of this on a part time unpaid basis?

Excellent traditional worship is not an accident.

 

[Maximilian75]

I’m not arguing that it happens by accident in any way shape or form.
My parish has a full time music director, so our organist has no need to teach chant, find choir members, or hire musicians.
Weekday masses have no music in my parish.
Just specifically for organists, I know that they can be found part time.

 

[goout]

I’m not arguing that it happens by accident in any way shape or form.
My parish has a full time music director, so our organist has no need to teach chant, find choir members, or hire musicians.
Just specifically for organists, I know that they can be found part time.

You are fortunate. Where we live, and I suspect in just about all places in the US, there are zero pipe organists available.
Our guy does all that I listed and a lot more. We pay him to do that.
He has trained a teenager to play also, but that young man will need to further his education.
It takes a commitment of resources.

 

[Maximilian75]

Absolutely. Rome was not built in a day.

 

[AngelusDomini]

Most work and give of their time and own resources; others are retired. Organists are paid a nominal fee for funerals and weddings. To be honest most parishes simply could not afford to pay for an organist yet alone anyone else.

 

[BridgetN]

Because Vatican II led to a all too radical change in the Traditional Mass, Sacraments, etc. As St. Paul said, we must stick to the Traditions, and Vatican II did not.

 

[edwest211]

Those are false statements.

 

[BridgetN]

Please read them original documents. I can understand your feelings, but if you research the real documents you will see.

 

[edwest211]

This thread was closed. Who reopened it?

 

[edwest211]

My statement has nothing to do with the original documents.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

I think this is an interesting quote from Sacrosanctum Concilium:
37. Even in the liturgy, the Church has no wish to impose a rigid uniformity in matters which do not implicate the faith or the good of the whole community; rather does she respect and foster the genius and talents of the various races and peoples.

That’s funny - - the Church only imposed a “rigid” uniformity in liturgy for how many centuries? Now we pretend that the Church has no wish to impose “rigid” uniformity…
Thus we get unholy pop songs during Mass.