Why is this in the Bible?

[NFrancis]

Deuteronomy 20:10-17 (New American Standard Bible)

10"When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace.

11"If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your (A)forced labor and shall serve you.

12"However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it.

13"When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, (B)you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword.

14"Only the women and the children and (C)the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you.

15"Thus you shall do to all the cities that are very far from you, which are not of the cities of these nations nearby.

16"(D)Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes.

17"But you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittite and the Amorite, the Canaanite and the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite, as the LORD your God has commanded you,

 

[1ke]

What, specifically, is your problem with it?

 

[PJM]

=NFrancis;6027982]Deuteronomy 20:10-17 (New American Standard Bible)

10"When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace.

11"If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your (A)forced labor and shall serve you.

12"However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it.

13"When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, (B)you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword.

14"Only the women and the children and (C)the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you.

15"Thus you shall do to all the cities that are very far from you, which are not of the cities of these nations nearby.

16"(D)Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes.

17"But you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittite and the Amorite, the Canaanite and the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite, as the LORD your God has commanded you,

***One must read this in light of the poeples to whom it is very specifically addressed.

Next one must understand that God is incapable of EVIL or anything bad.

Then one try to comprehend God’s Divine Justice…

The message is to the Jewish nation [currently following God’s Will] but also very fickle!

God’s advice and mndate are entended to preserve the intregerity of the Jewish Faith and tradition.

At the time the Culture was MALE DOMINATED and thus the heathen males had to be exterminated much like a desease.

Women at the time [at least publicaly] were NOT permitted independent thought, and of couse “kids” did what they were told. Note that this is a warning from God of there errors, because male children do not always remain children! Complete extermination was not “called for” because these cites were not to be inhabited by the Jews.

This explains verses 12-15.*

Then the seniero changes to cites that “God will give them to actually live in.” Here the risk of keeping anyone alive is FAR GREATER due to the possibility of intermarriage, influence on a week and largly uneducated Jewish nation, where God determines it is prudent and necessary not to permit evil influence, as the Jews are not yet strong enough SPIRITUALLY and Morally to withstand the assult. Also not that with GREAT specificity God is explicit on what nations, what practices are to be completely removed.

Because God is all-wise and all-knowing, we are in no position to second guess what GOD ACTUALLY KNOWS:thumbsup: **

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[SavedbyHisBlood]

***One must read this in light of the poeples to whom it is very specifically addressed.

Next one must understand that God is incapable of EVIL or anything bad.

Then one try to comprehend God’s Divine Justice…

The message is to the Jewish nation [currently following God’s Will] but also very fickle!

God’s advice and mndate are entended to preserve the intregerity of the Jewish Faith and tradition.

At the time the Culture was MALE DOMINATED and thus the heathen males had to be exterminated much like a desease.

Women at the time [at least publicaly] were NOT permitted independent thought, and of couse “kids” did what they were told. Note that this is a warning from God of there errors, because male children do not always remain children! Complete extermination was not “called for” because these cites were not to be inhabited by the Jews.

This explains verses 12-15.***

Then the seniero changes to cites that “God will give them to actually live in.” Here the risk of keeping anyone alive is FAR GREATER due to the possibility of intermarriage, influence on a week and largly uneducated Jewish nation, where God determines it is prudent and necessary not to permit evil influence, as the Jews are not yet strong enough SPIRITUALLY and Morally to withstand the assult. Also not that with GREAT specificity God is explicit on what nations, what practices are to be completely removed.

Because God is all-wise and all-knowing, we are in no position to second guess what GOD ACTUALLY KNOWS:thumbsup:

Love and prayers,

Pat

Well said

 

[NFrancis]

Thank you, PJM. That helped a lot.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Sometimes, the Bible is not God’s Words, but God’s record of mankind’s words and actions–including words they have put in God’s mouth.

 

[JeanneH]

Sometimes, the Bible is not God’s Words, but God’s record of mankind’s words and actions–including words they have put in God’s mouth.

Really? I have never heard this said before. The Bible is either God’s Word or not. How would you know the difference?

 

[John7]

Really? I have never heard this said before. The Bible is either God’s Word or not. How would you know the difference?

Don’t want to derail thread but,

Not answering for bpbasilphx, but I get confused on this. For example,

1 Kings 13:18 “He said unto him, I am a prophet also as thou art; and an angel spake unto me by the word of the LORD, saying, Bring him back with thee into thine house, that he may eat bread and drink water. But he lied unto him.”

The bolded part is an outright lie. But God doesn’t lie. Therefore it can’t be him speaking as he speaks in eg Ex. 20.1, “I am the LORD thy God which hath brought thee out of the land of Egypt…”

It would sound wierd to say, ‘the scriptural Word of God contains lies’. But they are statements that are truthfully recorded by whoever wrote 1 Kings. Lies that are truthfully recorded. The ‘old prophet in Bethel’ (f/ 1 Kings 13) was the one who told the lie, not God.

But the bolded part of 1 Kings 13:18 is the Word of God, but it is a lie, but it is the Word of God ???

 

[JeanneH]

Don’t want to derail thread but,

Not answering for bpbasilphx, but I get confused on this. For example,

1 Kings 13:18 “He said unto him, I am a prophet also as thou art; and an angel spake unto me by the word of the LORD, saying, Bring him back with thee into thine house, that he may eat bread and drink water. But he lied unto him.”

The bolded part is an outright lie. But God doesn’t lie. Therefore it can’t be him speaking as he speaks in eg Ex. 20.1, “I am the LORD thy God which hath brought thee out of the land of Egypt…”

It would sound wierd to say, ‘the scriptural Word of God contains lies’. But they are statements that are truthfully recorded by whoever wrote 1 Kings. Lies that are truthfully recorded. The ‘old prophet in Bethel’ (f/ 1 Kings 13) was the one who told the lie, not God.

But the bolded part of 1 Kings 13:18 is the Word of God, but it is a lie, but it is the Word of God ???

I don’t know that this was an actual lie. If you start to read from vs.11 to the end of the chapter the conversation goes something like this–
conversation is, my paraphrasing, The man from God was given orders from God to not eat or drink nor to return the way he had come but the second “prophet” lies to the man of God to test him. The lesson being that once God tells you to do something you should not even listen to an angel that tells you something different.
The first man of God should not have gone with the second prophet to eat and drink. I guess he failed the test.

Did this make sense to you?
Jeanne

 

[John7]

I don’t know that this was an actual lie. If you start to read from vs.11 to the end of the chapter the conversation goes something like this–
conversation is, my paraphrasing, The man from God was given orders from God to not eat or drink nor to return the way he had come but the second “prophet” lies to the man of God to test him. The lesson being that once God tells you to do something you should not even listen to an angel that tells you something different.
The first man of God should not have gone with the second prophet to eat and drink. I guess he failed the test.

Did this make sense to you?
Jeanne

The way I took it (and I should have bolded it) is that even the second prophet saying that, “an angel spake unto me by the word of the LORD” was a lie, that he just made that up (lied) to sound more official/authoritative in the eyes of the man of God…

 

[Mersenne]

***One must read this in light of the poeples to whom it is very specifically addressed.

Next one must understand that God is incapable of EVIL or anything bad.

Then one try to comprehend God’s Divine Justice…

The message is to the Jewish nation [currently following God’s Will] but also very fickle!

God’s advice and mndate are entended to preserve the intregerity of the Jewish Faith and tradition.

At the time the Culture was MALE DOMINATED and thus the heathen males had to be exterminated much like a desease.

Women at the time [at least publicaly] were NOT permitted independent thought, and of couse “kids” did what they were told. Note that this is a warning from God of there errors, because male children do not always remain children! Complete extermination was not “called for” because these cites were not to be inhabited by the Jews.

This explains verses 12-15.***

Then the seniero changes to cites that “God will give them to actually live in.” Here the risk of keeping anyone alive is FAR GREATER due to the possibility of intermarriage, influence on a week and largly uneducated Jewish nation, where God determines it is prudent and necessary not to permit evil influence, as the Jews are not yet strong enough SPIRITUALLY and Morally to withstand the assult. Also not that with GREAT specificity God is explicit on what nations, what practices are to be completely removed.

Because God is all-wise and all-knowing, we are in no position to second guess what GOD ACTUALLY KNOWS:thumbsup:

Love and prayers,

Pat

So god had to have people murdered because otherwise they had never heard of the one true god and he was afraid their culture might have an effect on the jews?

And this in your mind is a good explanation?

That’s sick.

 

[Holly3278]

It’s in the Bible because God wanted it in the Bible.

 

[zz912]

So god had to have people murdered because otherwise they had never heard of the one true god and he was afraid their culture might have an effect on the jews?

And this in your mind is a good explanation?

That’s sick.

What an utter twisting of the facts. And it shows a great deal of ignorance of history and how the world worked 5000 years ago.

First thing, war is not murder. God was giving this land to the Jews as their land. It was promised to them many centuries before. He was separating them from all other nations. Each and every city would have been warned and given the opportunity to leave the land. They flat out refused. After this, there is no other option than to fight for the land. Do not worry though, those same people that were killed were judged by God and their fates are correctly judged in the afterlife. Any temporal excess of punishment, hardship, and death would be remedied by God if He judged them worthy of Heaven through no fault of their own.

Was was sadly a way of life for many nations, and the relative peace and prosperity we have enjoyed in America for many years has led us to be wildly ignorant of the realities of war and the nature of living with war.

As to the question about other nations encouraging the Jews to worship other gods and idols, well that is EXACTLY what happened when they did not carry out God’s orders.

 

[JeanneH]

The way I took it (and I should have bolded it) is that even the second prophet saying that, “an angel spake unto me by the word of the LORD” was a lie, that he just made that up (lied) to sound more official/authoritative in the eyes of the man of God…

We will never know…If the man lied on his own or God told him to lie just to test the man of God. In any event, the man of God failed the test because he did go and eat. I don’t know the answer.

 

[Myrmideo]

So god had to have people murdered because otherwise they had never heard of the one true god and he was afraid their culture might have an effect on the jews?

And this in your mind is a good explanation?

That’s sick.

You’re trying to think of God like he is human and has limited knowledge of the situation. Where God has all knowledge of any situation. God cannot commit evil. But God sometimes kills or asks people to kill. This does not make sense unless we understand that not all killing is evil. But in truth only God can know when the killing is justified. Which is why we need to be humble before God and accept that we are not him, and have a very limited knowledge of existence. Also people need to understand that God gave “us” the ten commandments and he is not bound by them.

 

[VociMike]

Pondering such actions by God is really a distraction from the main question. In this case the main question is not why God ordered some to be killed 3000 years ago. The main question is why God allows each and every one of us, and every other creature on earth, to die. It is certainly in his power to prevent this. To ponder deaths from 3000 years ago without first pondering that question is to remain in permanent confusion.

 

[Myrmideo]

Pondering such actions by God is really a distraction from the main question. In this case the main question is not why God ordered some to be killed 3000 years ago. The main question is why God allows each and every one of us, and every other creature on earth, to die. It is certainly in his power to prevent this. To ponder deaths from 3000 years ago without first pondering that question is to remain in permanent confusion.

I believe this question has already been answered. God created us to not die. Humans caused ourselves to die by disobeying God. This is part of the curse from original sin. Fortunately Our Father in all his mercy provided us a way to still experience eternal life through his son Jesus.

 

[VociMike]

I believe this question has already been answered. God created us to not die. Humans caused ourselves to die by disobeying God. This is part of the curse from original sin. Fortunately Our Father in all his mercy provided us a way to still experience eternal life through his son Jesus.

But if some of our angrier atheist friends declare that it is sick for God to allow us to die when he could prevent us from dying, we must have an answer. Let’s face it, one’s own death, or the death of those closest too us, are vastly more important matters than the deaths of some people 3000 years ago. So again I say the latter is really just a distraction from the more important question that every person should face, which is why does God allow anybody to die?

 

[Nita]

So god had to have people murdered because otherwise they had never heard of the one true god and he was afraid their culture might have an effect on the jews?

And this in your mind is a good explanation?

That’s sick.

Are there circumstances in your mind that would justify the taking of human life because of the effect it could have on you and/or your children? What might these circumstances be?

For an idea of the culture of the nations the Israelites were to war against (if they would not accept peace), read Leviticus chapter 18.
(Keep in mind, the Israelites were nomadic at this time – no jails or prisoner of war camps.)

 

[Mersenne]

What an utter twisting of the facts. And it shows a great deal of ignorance of history and how the world worked 5000 years ago.

First thing, war is not murder. God was giving this land to the Jews as their land. It was promised to them many centuries before. He was separating them from all other nations. Each and every city would have been warned and given the opportunity to leave the land. They flat out refused. After this, there is no other option than to fight for the land. Do not worry though, those same people that were killed were judged by God and their fates are correctly judged in the afterlife. Any temporal excess of punishment, hardship, and death would be remedied by God if He judged them worthy of Heaven through no fault of their own.

Ah, so I guess it was okay for people to fly planes into buildings on 9/11, god told them it was okay.

War(sp?) was sadly a way of life for many nations, and the relative peace and prosperity we have enjoyed in America for many years has led us to be wildly ignorant of the realities of war and the nature of living with war.

What you’re trying to do is gloss over the ugliness of war. War is horrible, and it’s very immoral to engage in war without significant justification. If you can’t see the problem with calling “god told us this was our land” significant justification, then you’re sick. That’s the kind of thinking that

As to the question about other nations encouraging the Jews to worship other gods and idols, well that is EXACTLY what happened when they did not carry out God’s orders.

Don’t they have free will? Shouldn’t the jews be punished for choosing to worship idols instead of whatever innocent tribe they wander across? The truth is obvious. The bible is not written by god, it was written by middle easterners 2 or 3 thousand years ago, about their various myths and gods. These ideas are outdated, and sick when applied to the modern world.