Why is this not idolatry?

[Sepharad]

Because the man is not worshiping the images themselves, it is not idolatry. He is using the images to focus his prayers. It is simply a method of praying that is different from yours. No more, no less.

I agree with this reply because it makes the most sense. I keep the Tetragrammaton (God’s true Name) in my mind when I meditate on Him…its a way to focus on Him!

Having said that, I think this is one reason why some groups of very Orthodox Jews, and also the Old Order Amish, do not like to have their pictures taken…because to them, it is making an image.

 

[jay29]

Exactly the sort of comment that has driven me away from Catholicism. Perfect!

Your ignorance?

 

[JRKH]

Your ignorance?

Please do not stir this pot. It serves no useful purpose.

Peace
James

 

[jmcrae]

I cannot know this man’s heart, but it is my worry that people like this may be doing this out of personal psychological needs. A person who is overwhelmed with signs of devotions (pictures, medals, crucifixes, scapulars, statues, etc.), probably, they are putting their own defensiveness, needfulness, and dependency in devotion. Sometimes, these people think that by their devotions, they will then twist the hand of God. Others “hide behind” their knowledge in devotions and in their faith to avoid reality.

However, there is no way for us to tell how this man is being effected. At the same time, he may indeed be being brought into fuller communion with our Lord and by our Lord’s grace through these devotions, living a more Christian life.

Even if this is the case (and this is a worst-case scenario, I think) the man is probably a better Christian when he is doing this, than when he is not doing this. He won’t suddenly become “enlightened” if someone takes his holy pictures away, or tells him that God doesn’t grant favours on the basis of how many Novenas he does. He will sort this out on his own, by means of personal experience.

Meanwhile, the Church is available for him, to be a safe place where he can work these issues out for himself, and where there are people available to answer his questions, if and when he has them.

 

[jmcrae]

Exactly the sort of comment that has driven me away from Catholicism. Perfect!

What would you do if you were faced with the lions in the Colliseum, if a few words on a screen are enough to make you lose your faith?

Do you dare to hope to stand in the same Heaven as St. Ignatius of Antioch, who was not bothered by being eaten by lions, while proclaiming and holding fast to his Catholic faith?

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Last week I went to visit my father in a nursing home. When I got there I asked him if there is anywhere he wanted to go? He said to church so I took him to the church we went to when I grew up but sadly it was locked even though it was the middle of the day. A gardner saw us and said we could go to the perpetual adoration chapel which was open.
My father and I went inside where the monstance was front and center with little kneeling pews and maybe 4 other people there. Im not going to argue about the monstance and the whole getup although I do believe it to be idolatry however I understand that Catholics believe it is not idolatry because of their beliefs.
The point of this post is there was one man maybe forty who had a dozen or so pictures of everything to the holy face of Jesus, Divine mercy, Virgin Mary. This man held these pictures as if they cards up to his face as he prayed, he also put some of the cards on the seat in front of him spread out so he could see them as he prayed at times he touched the pictures to his forehead.
I have been to many of the Catholic devotions throughout the years and there are some folks like this man tat are definitely over the top. At no time have I seen anyone correct these folks and if pictures of these types of beaviors are posted virtually every Catholic will defend this beavior.

Why?

I kiss my crucifix necklace when I put it on every morning. Is that worship or respect and admiration for Christ? I’m a non-Catholic and I see nothing wrong with it. I also will hold my Bible and kiss it. I’m not worshipping the objects. I’m remembering how dear the spiritual things are behind it. I worship the Christ of the crucifix and the Holy Spirit who wrote the Bible.

Peace…

MW

 

[Hisalone]

Peace be with you,
I confess i have not read the whole thread sorry if this has been offered to you.

I would have waited till the man had finished, and outside i would have asked if he could spend a little time chatting with me.

I would have commented that his prayer seemed of great devotion and would he share with you about it to deepen your own life.

if he said he was worshiping the pics i would have very gently offered my understanding of idolatry.

now i know people may think this would be seen as rude or difficult but trust if you pray to the Father in your heart as Jesus (pbwh) taught
and ask Him that you and the man be like Jesus (pbwh) to each other so to genuinely help each other it will all be sweet.
of course you need to do this genuinely by emptying your pre conceived notion that he is practicing idolatry

May God bless and guide you as you submit unto Him.

Thank you for your thoughtfull response.

 

[holy_wood]

One should not presume to know the hearts of men. If what these people do is not to your liking then don’t do it, but do not assume they are worshipping the statues in place of God.

Posture in Prayer, Veneration and Worship

Deut. 5:9 - God’s command, “you shall not bow down to them” means “do not worship them.” But not all bowing is worship. Here God’s command is connected to false worship.

Rev. 3:9 - Jesus said people would bow down before the faithful members of the church of Philadelphia. This bowing before the faithful is not worship.

Gen. 19:1 - Lot** bowed down to the ground in veneration** before two angels in Sodom.

Gen. 42:6 - Joseph’s brothers bow before Joseph** (a man)** with the face to the ground.

Jos. 5:14 - Joshua fell to the ground prostrate in veneration before an** angel**.

1 Sam. 28:14 - Saul bows down before Samuel (a man) with his face to the ground in honor and veneration.

1 Kings 1:23 - the prophet Nathan bows down before King David (a man).

2 Kings 2:15 - the sons of the prophets bow down to Elisha (a man) at Jericho.

1 Chron. 21:21 - Ornan the Jebusite did obeisance to king David (a man) with his face to the ground.

2 Chron. 29:29-30 - King Hezekiah and the assembly venerate the altar (an object) by bowing down in worship before the sin offerings.

Tobit 12:16 - Tobiah and Tobit fell down to the ground in veneration before Raphael** (an angel)**.

Judith 14:7 - Achior the Ammonite **kneels before Judith venerating **her (a woman) and praising God.

Psalm 138:2 - David bows down before God’s Holy Temple (an object).

Dan. 2:46 - the** king fell down on his face** paying homage to Daniel (a man) and commands that an offering be made to him.

Daniel 8:17 - Daniel fell down prostrate in veneration before the angel Gabriel.

1 Macc. 4:40,55 - Judas and the faithful fell face down to the ground to praise heaven and worship God.

In your culture is bowing **equated **to worship? If yes, then read these versus carefully…
(cut and paste the verse at http://www.biblegateway.com)

because it is not according to the Bible.

Do you venerate man, angel, or saint? If not why, it is extremely Biblical.

Quick question, is saluting a flag idolatry to you? How about standing in respect to a judge in court. Idols are not just things, they can be people and places too.

 

[thirdn6]

Two women seated together in front of a bus. The woman by the window made a sign of a cross upon passing a Catholic church along the road. The other woman reacted and seem annoyed. Whom do you think that God is smiling to? The woman who remembered Him or the woman who scorns.

 

[Steven_John]

Holy wood,
i liked your post #87 very much.

God has sent us many messages through many messengers they all demonstrate goodness and the messengers (pbwt) are of God intention.

When we look at them we see they are of men bettering mans relationship with God.

Some get closer than others.
But all demonstrate right relationship with
The Father / Allah / God / Most High …
for He is most merciful.

But we are to seek our best relationship with
The Father / Allah / God / Most High …

Those who shared the higher relationship with God demonstrate the purest way, the best example for us.
It is often the simplest relationship.
This doesn’t say it will be easy, just simpler.

Now if you do this you will not fall to Idolatry.

If i think of the best example i know this is how it is for me.

I pray to the The Father / Allah / God / Most High …
not to angels, men or even the teacher of the prayer,
or his mom
for he never said to and i do not know of him doing that.

I dont need to have statues or monuments,
Pictures, beads etc.

I dont need to know who He will send as an intercessors,
The Father / Allah / God / Most High …
takes care of all that.

Thats the truest, purest, best way .

Now i am in error for i transgress from this.

I use prayer beads / fingers or mind using the image of fingers for counter for mantra thingy,
it helps my focus before prayer.

Thanks be to
The Father / Allah / God / Most High …
for the merciful examples in post #87
and for Holy wood posting.

I pray in faith that
The Father / Allah / God / Most High …
will have mercy on us all

 

[wisdomseeker]

Last week I went to visit my father in a nursing home. When I got there I asked him if there is anywhere he wanted to go? He said to church so I took him to the church we went to when I grew up but sadly it was locked even though it was the middle of the day. A gardner saw us and said we could go to the perpetual adoration chapel which was open.
My father and I went inside where the monstance was front and center with little kneeling pews and maybe 4 other people there. Im not going to argue about the monstance and the whole getup although I do believe it to be idolatry however I understand that Catholics believe it is not idolatry because of their beliefs.
The point of this post is there was one man maybe forty who had a dozen or so pictures of everything to the holy face of Jesus, Divine mercy, Virgin Mary. This man held these pictures as if they cards up to his face as he prayed, he also put some of the cards on the seat in front of him spread out so he could see them as he prayed at times he touched the pictures to his forehead.
I have been to many of the Catholic devotions throughout the years and there are some folks like this man tat are definitely over the top. At no time have I seen anyone correct these folks and if pictures of these types of beaviors are posted virtually every Catholic will defend this beavior.

Why?

People seem to be very confused on the subject of idolatry.
as far as i understand, idolatry is the worship of other gods.
i have never seen catholics claiming to have any other god than Our Lord Himself. the Church was built by Jesus therefore no other god is proclaimed in this Church. now we honor our saints who are in Heaven with our Lord. because everything that comes from God deserves our respect and honor. for whatever we do to the least of these we are doing to our Lord. none of our saints have received the title of gods from us. therefore there is no idolatry involved. protestants believed this because that is what they been taught by their predecessors without even realizing that they are believing in a lie. without knowing what idolatry really is they will not be able to understand how can the catholics have so much love for those who are of God.

:bowdown: :byzsoc:

 

[allhers]

Thank you for your thoughtfull response.

So in the future we may as well not respond to your questions right, since you seem to only respond to those who agree with you. How does anyone learn anything when they do that?

 

[mark_a]

Last week I went to visit my father in a nursing home. When I got there I asked him if there is anywhere he wanted to go? He said to church so I took him to the church we went to when I grew up but sadly it was locked even though it was the middle of the day. A gardner saw us and said we could go to the perpetual adoration chapel which was open.
My father and I went inside where the monstance was front and center with little kneeling pews and maybe 4 other people there. Im not going to argue about the monstance and the whole getup although I do believe it to be idolatry however I understand that Catholics believe it is not idolatry because of their beliefs.
The point of this post is there was one man maybe forty who had a dozen or so pictures of everything to the holy face of Jesus, Divine mercy, Virgin Mary. This man held these pictures as if they cards up to his face as he prayed, he also put some of the cards on the seat in front of him spread out so he could see them as he prayed at times he touched the pictures to his forehead.
I have been to many of the Catholic devotions throughout the years and there are some folks like this man tat are definitely over the top. At no time have I seen anyone correct these folks and if pictures of these types of beaviors are posted virtually every Catholic will defend this beavior.

Why?

Is your problem with Catholics or Catholic Church?

Maybe you could join the Catholic Church and start a “Adoration police” ministry.

 

[latin_rite]

Ok namesake isn’t interested in what any of you have to say. he is either a troll. or an protestant. well an evangilicalist. just spewing the diatribe he has learned from his parents. honestly you’re wasting your time.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Last week I went to visit my father in a nursing home. When I got there I asked him if there is anywhere he wanted to go? He said to church so I took him to the church we went to when I grew up but sadly it was locked even though it was the middle of the day. A gardner saw us and said we could go to the perpetual adoration chapel which was open.
My father and I went inside where the monstance was front and center with little kneeling pews and maybe 4 other people there. Im not going to argue about the monstance and the whole getup although I do believe it to be idolatry however I understand that Catholics believe it is not idolatry because of their beliefs.
The point of this post is there was one man maybe forty who had a dozen or so pictures of everything to the holy face of Jesus, Divine mercy, Virgin Mary. This man held these pictures as if they cards up to his face as he prayed, he also put some of the cards on the seat in front of him spread out so he could see them as he prayed at times he touched the pictures to his forehead.
I have been to many of the Catholic devotions throughout the years and there are some folks like this man tat are definitely over the top. At no time have I seen anyone correct these folks and if pictures of these types of beaviors are posted virtually every Catholic will defend this beavior.

How is this in particular “over the top” ?​

Why?

People shouldn’t be defended - or blamed - for no better reason than that they belong to this or that group. That having been said, categories such as idolatry, orthodoxy, or what-have-you mean little in practice until they are applied. And in practice, no one on earth except that man knows his own mind - so, that something looks like idolatry, does not make it so. And if a man is not being idolatrous, he can’t be corrected for it.​

Unless one knows otherwise, or has a very strong & well-founded reason to think otherwise, one must always begin by putting a favourable construction on what one sees. This is basic Catholic morality.

The problem with the description is that it is incomplete; for unless you know what this man’s intentions were, it is meaningless to say what he was doing, because the intention decides the moral position of the person doing the act. That’s why all deliberate homicide is not murder: someone dies, but that does not by itself tell us anything about the intention of the person causing the death; which is why murderers are (rightly) punished, & soldiers are (rightly) rewarded.

Idolatry cannot become a morally good act - it is evil, because intrinsically disordered, no matter what our intentions; but, what can change in it, is whether it is blameworthy in the person doing it - IOW, whether or not that person is guilty of idolatry. So someone who has not been instructed otherwise can without blame carry out a materially idolatrous act; the act is wrong in itself, but the doer is not guilty of idolatry. If the person is uncertain whether he is doing something idolatrous, he would be sinning if he did not form his conscience before acting; it is a sin to do anything one is not morally certain is good. So if one is not certain whether it is morally right to visit the sick, whether at all or on a particular occasion, one would certainly sin by doing so.

So while it’s easy to see how this man might seem to be doing something idolatrous, it is far from clear that he was. Only he could tell you what he meant.

 

[Hisalone]

So in the future we may as well not respond to your questions right, since you seem to only respond to those who agree with you. How does anyone learn anything when they do that?

In my OP I stated that virtually every Catholic will defend what to nonCatolics is an obvious idolatry. I tought this poster was Catholic and I appreciate he does not defend this.

 

[Hisalone]

Is your problem with Catholics or Catholic Church?

Maybe you could join the Catholic Church and start a “Adoration police” ministry.

My problem is with idolatry.

 

[Hisalone]

How is this in particular “over the top” ?​

People shouldn’t be defended - or blamed - for no better reason than that they belong to this or that group. That having been said, categories such as idolatry, orthodoxy, or what-have-you mean little in practice until they are applied. And in practice, no one on earth except that man knows his own mind - so, that something looks like idolatry, does not make it so. And if a man is not being idolatrous, he can’t be corrected for it.​

Unless one knows otherwise, or has a very strong & well-founded reason to think otherwise, one must always begin by putting a favourable construction on what one sees. This is basic Catholic morality.

The problem with the description is that it is incomplete; for unless you know what this man’s intentions were, it is meaningless to say what he was doing, because the intention decides the moral position of the person doing the act. That’s why all deliberate homicide is not murder: someone dies, but that does not by itself tell us anything about the intention of the person causing the death; which is why murderers are (rightly) punished, & soldiers are (rightly) rewarded.

Idolatry cannot become a morally good act - it is evil, because intrinsically disordered, no matter what our intentions; but, what can change in it, is whether it is blameworthy in the person doing it - IOW, whether or not that person is guilty of idolatry. So someone who has not been instructed otherwise can without blame carry out a materially idolatrous act; the act is wrong in itself, but the doer is not guilty of idolatry. If the person is uncertain whether he is doing something idolatrous, he would be sinning if he did not form his conscience before acting; it is a sin to do anything one is not morally certain is good. So if one is not certain whether it is morally right to visit the sick, whether at all or on a particular occasion, one would certainly sin by doing so.

So while it’s easy to see how this man might seem to be doing something idolatrous, it is far from clear that he was. Only he could tell you what he meant.

Michael the three Hebrew boys could have bent their knee to the statue and in their hearts not worshipped it however they did not choose that course. Intentions is not what is at core here, How many martyrs could have said Lord you know I believe you but then done something different…

 

[ibkc]

Hisalone,
Can you explain how you know that the man in your original post was worshiping the pictures instead of God?

In my OP I stated that virtually every Catholic will defend what to nonCatolics is an obvious idolatry.

I have spent the majority of my life as a non-Catholic, and a good chunk of it as a non-Christian. It never once occurred to me that Catholics worship statues and images or commit “idolatry”.

And there are non-Catholics right here on this thread who disagree with you that Catholic worship is idolatry.

 

[JRKH]

In my OP I stated that virtually every Catholic will defend what to nonCatolics is an obvious idolatry…

I appreciate the difficulty some have with this.
I will pose two items for consideration.

1. The man obviously came to the Eucharistic Chapel to be with Our Lord in the Holy Eucharist. If he were worshipping the Cards, he could have just as easily have done that elsewhere.
2. When you see something like this and make a judgement that this is “Obviously Idolatry”, you are judging “As the World Judges”. You are not Judging as God Judges. You are judging by appearances and not by what is in the heart.

I’m reminded of How the Grinch stole Christmas. The Whos in Whoville had all the usual Christmas paraphenalia, but when that was taken from them they still knew the true meaning of Christmas.
Same here. He may use holy cards, or rosary beads, or statues, or candles, or any number of “things”, but even without them he would still be there worshiping Our Lord in the Eucharist.

Peace
James