Why is this not idolatry?

[allhers]

In my OP I stated that virtually every Catholic will defend what to nonCatolics is an obvious idolatry. I tought this poster was Catholic and I appreciate he does not defend this.

Well, I didn’t think either one of you were Catholic (you-Hisalone, or Steven John), and I supect I’m right about that.
However, how about if you both read this?
An essential difference exists between idolatry and the veneration of images practiced in the Catholic Church, viz., that while the idolater credits the image he reverences with Divinity or Divine powers, the Catholic knows “that in images there is no divinity or virtue on account of which they are to be worshipped, that no petitions can be addressed to them, and that no trust is to be placed in them… that the honor which is given to them is referred to the objects (prototype) which they represent, so that through the images which we kiss, and before which we uncover our heads and kneel, we adore Christ and venerate the Saints whose likenesses they are” (Conc. Trid., Sess. XXV, “de invocatione Sanctorum”).

source: oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Idolatry

 

[allhers]

I dont follow this post, i have some language difficulties.

Are you saying my post was in error or it was wrong for the respondent to speak to me?

They thanked me,
this is not the true path,
the true path is for us to give all thanks to Our God.

I took their gratitude in faith to be to God as no one is good but God.

Steven John, I was speaking to the OP (original poster), Hisalone. I think that I could have made myself more clear on that and in the future I will do that.

 

[c659smith]

I can say he was a good guy. he got along pretty well. had a good sense of humor. What’s inside of him spiritually, I didn’t know. He just exploded and started cursing. If it was a punishment, what’s the reason for being punished… of death?

It sounds like this was not his personality and something caused him to have such a change and in a house of God. What do you think it was?

Demons are always looking for human hosts to possess. The Devil is real just as Christ is real. We are no match for Satan and his Henchman without Christ.

 

[JRKH]

Why that is a horrible thing to say. the statues did not cause his desease and statues are not beings. Catholics do not pray to statues.

Maybe it is and maybe it isn’t.
First of all the “Partiers” were disrespecting God’s house by having the Drinking party there. As if this was not bad enough, this young man, further Challanged God. Cursing in His house and mocking Him.

Certainly the statues did not cause anything for they are but representations.
But who is to say what wrath this young man might have drawn down on himself. The Bible is full of such stories from the deaths of Egypt’s firstborn to Jesus Shrivalling up the fig tree to the couple dropping dead in front of Peter for lying to the Holy Spirit.

Did God send this punishment? We cannot say. To call it a “Horrible thing to say” is ignoring the very real possibility.

Peace
James

 

[thirdn6]

It sounds like this was not his personality and something caused him to have such a change and in a house of God. What do you think it was?

Demons are always looking for human hosts to possess. The Devil is real just as Christ is real. We are no match for Satan and his Henchman without Christ.

For one thing- he wasn’t catholic. His father was a minister. He had learned quite a lot of anti-catholic teachings in his home since child I would guess, probably one against icons and statues. He was the only one in his family who died of that.

Maybe at that very moment he was possessed!
Never heard anything like that happened again though in my place. People got scared .

 

[c659smith]

Maybe it is and maybe it isn’t.
First of all the “Partiers” were disrespecting God’s house by having the Drinking party there. As if this was not bad enough, this young man, further Challanged God. Cursing in His house and mocking Him.

Certainly the statues did not cause anything for they are but representations.
But who is to say what wrath this young man might have drawn down on himself. The Bible is full of such stories from the deaths of Egypt’s firstborn to Jesus Shrivalling up the fig tree to the couple dropping dead in front of Peter for lying to the Holy Spirit.

Did God send this punishment? We cannot say. To call it a “Horrible thing to say” is ignoring the very real possibility.

Peace
James

We have a choice and that is to follow Christ or go the way of Satan.
God has always given man a choice and man reaps what he sows.

Even the pharoh of egypt was given choices but he chose the wrong one.

In the bible God had struck down man once with the great flood by is own hand. The only other times were sins aganist the Holy Spirit.

All others were the Angels of God (messengers) Such as with Sodom,

the angel of death at the doors of the first born without the blood of the lamb on the door. These chose to become a member of Satan’s family.

Judas Iscariot chose Satan and was possessed by the Devil.

When we make a final choice or play with the supernatural such as weechee boards, magic, satanism we are not Gods but open ourselves to Satan. God does not punish us we punish ourselves by making the wrong choices and decisions we choose the darkness and not the light.

For the most part we are exactly where we want to be or go.

Jesus offers us the light and Love it is men who reject Him and it is Satan who punishes

 

[thirdn6]

Aww! I have not read that post by JRKH. He was telling the same sort of things.

To me, It’s just like when we go receive the Holy Eucharist we MUST be worthy to partake lest we are receiving our own condemnation!

 

[hosemonkey]

When I was a Baptist (back before I got saved), we said prayers to pieces of cloth.

They were brought up to the front of the church with great solemnity and worshiped with precise ritual gestures executed in unison on command of the leader: “Attenion! Salute! Pledge!”

The funny thing is that BOTH prayers began with the same words: I pledge allegiance… .

Why is this not idolatry?

I am offended by your ridiculous allegation. To imply that to salute the flag of one’s country is worship is stupid. I proudly salute my flag to acknowlege what that flag represents, namely the rights and freedoms that my comrades fought and bled and died for. Your right to choose your own government and your right to worship as you please or not, as the case may be. I honor and respect my flag, because it represents what this great country stands for, and it calls to my mind that I and thousands of my brothers-in-arms shed their blood so that you could disrespect it and not be hauled off to prison. Yes, it is “only” a piece of cloth, but it stands for so much more.

 

[c659smith]

When I was a Baptist (back before I got saved), we said prayers to pieces of cloth.

They were brought up to the front of the church with great solemnity and worshiped with precise ritual gestures executed in unison on command of the leader: “Attenion! Salute! Pledge!”

The funny thing is that BOTH prayers began with the same words: I pledge allegiance… .

Why is this not idolatry?

A Centurion gave an oath to his country and gave allegiance to Rome yet Jesus stated

I have not found such great faith, no, not in Israel."

Jesus was well pleased with the Centurion.

Luke 7:1-10 (web)
After he had finished speaking in the hearing of the people, he entered into Capernaum.
A certain centurion’s servant, who was dear to him, was sick and at the point of death.
When he heard about Jesus, he sent to him elders of the Jews,
asking him to come and save his servant.
When they came to Jesus, they begged him earnestly, saying,
“He is worthy for you to do this for him,
for he loves our nation, and he built our synagogue for us.”

Jesus went with them. When he was now not far from the house,
the centurion sent friends to him, saying to him,
“Lord, don’t trouble yourself, for I am not worthy for you to come under my roof.
Therefore I didn’t even think myself worthy to come to you;
but say the word, and my servant will be healed.
For I also am a man placed under authority, having under myself soldiers.
I tell this one, ‘Go!’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come!’ and he comes;
and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

When Jesus heard these things, he marveled at him, and turned and said to the multitude who followed him, “I tell you, I have not found such great faith, no, not in Israel.”
Those who were sent, returning to the house,
found that the servant who had been sick was well.

Your interpetation of the Bible --Pledges of Allegiance and Worship while similar and both requiring integrity, friendship, fidelity, and love are if done for the right reasons accepted by Christ as shown in the above parable.

Do you have a different interpetation?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

When I was a Baptist (back before I got saved), we said prayers to pieces of cloth.

They were brought up to the front of the church with great solemnity and worshiped with precise ritual gestures executed in unison on command of the leader: “Attenion! Salute! Pledge!”

The funny thing is that BOTH prayers began with the same words: I pledge allegiance… .

Why is this not idolatry?

Is there not a piece of cloth to which people “sing a hymn, as to a god” ?​

If “Old Glory” is not an attribution of eternity & glory - what is ?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Why that is a horrible thing to say. the statues did not cause his desease and statues are not beings. Catholics do not pray to statues.

A statue is a work of art and allows one to have a human concept
of God. Remember God is “I Am” and the Father has never revealed himself to anyone.

As Humans we conceptualize with things we can feel and touch. We have faith and Christ as the Son of God came to earth as Man and God to open the gates of heaven that were closed. I do not know anyone that has seen a soul without a body.

There were many humans that led saintly lives and we do good to emmulate not only for their following and mirroring Christ’s steps but as leaders for the good of mankind.

Again these statues remind us to lead such a life. These Saints to include Joseph and Mary are in heaven with God for then as the Bible does state they are praying and with God so asking them to pray for us as we ask eachother to keep one another in our prayers is only common sense and not a ard concept, that we may be shielded from evil and harm from the devil. For we do not die in Christ but have eternal life.

I am not surprised about this. i believe to be true.
in brasil there was a pastor that pretty much did the same thing. now he became catholic and he gives his testimony all around the country. He was mad about the statues in the CC and he decided to kick one of them. his foot contradict a horrible infection that would never heal. he even came to US for treatment and the doctores could do nothing to heal his foot. wasnt until he remembered what he did and repented that he begin to receive a visit from a nun. the nun treated his foot everyday until he healed. when he was leaving the hospital he asked for the nun so could say thanks. but no one had ever seen any nun coming into the hospital. he realized then that it was a divine being. he now is catholic.

:byzsoc:

 

[Hisalone]

Well, I didn’t think either one of you were Catholic (you-Hisalone, or Steven John), and I supect I’m right about that.
However, how about if you both read this?
An essential difference exists between idolatry and the veneration of images practiced in the Catholic Church, viz., that while the idolater credits the image he reverences with Divinity or Divine powers, the Catholic knows “that in images there is no divinity or virtue on account of which they are to be worshipped, that no petitions can be addressed to them, and that no trust is to be placed in them… that the honor which is given to them is referred to the objects (prototype) which they represent, so that through the images which we kiss, and before which we uncover our heads and kneel, we adore Christ and venerate the Saints whose likenesses they are” (Conc. Trid., Sess. XXV, “de invocatione Sanctorum”).

source: oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Idolatry

If you read te OP you would know where my Cristian walk started.

As for the rest of your post a distinction without a difference.

 

[Delora]

dear hisalone, that makes no sense.

There can be no such thing as a distinction without a difference.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/distinction

You can say that it doesn’t make any big difference, but you must concede that there is one.

And in that concession, lies the crux of the matter. veneration of icons is not idolatry.

 

[PapaSquash]

dear hisalone, that makes no sense.

There can be no such thing as a distinction without a difference.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/distinction

You can say that it doesn’t make any big difference, but you must concede that there is one.

And in that concession, lies the crux of the matter. veneration of icons is not idolatry.

It seems to me that he wants this to be idolatry so badly and insists that it is idolatry, because the notion that there is idolatry in the Church gives him the excuse he is looking for to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

See, if we’re not right about idolatry, then we’re also probably not right about whatever it is he really wants to do.

(Careful with that baby, there has only ever been one of him.)

 

[packermann]

He kissed the picture, I assume a photo. He didn’t kiss the person. He is worshiping the picture. Not that there is anything wrong with that. It’s really no different than worshiping the host. The host isn’t Jesus. Or do you believe that the host *is Jesus?

Yes, most definitely. The host is the actual body and soul of Jesus Christ. When we have Eucharistic Adoration, I kneel in front of the Eucharist. I worship Christ in the Eucharist. I often say “O Sacrament most holy, O Sacrament divine. All Praise and Thanksgiving be every moment Thine”. Now, if the host is mere bread, then I am saying that mere bread should be always praised. But I take Jesus at His word. He held the bread and said “This is my body”. Jesus said it, I believe it, that settles it. So since I believe what Jesus said, I believe the host is Jesus.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

I’m not sure how it can be further simplified. Idolatry is worshipping an object as a god. In the OP, the man was described as using aids in prayer. He was not worshipping the images, he was using images to deepen his meditation or prayer.

When idolatry was banned by God, it was because people were replacing Him with man-made objects. They were not using the object to get deeper into prayer; they were using them as a replacement to Him. God did not have a problem with graven images in themselves (or else He would not have expressly commanded the making of such images); it was the worship of those images that offended Him so much.

I know many people that kiss their bibles-- does that mean they worship the paper and ink? No, their bibles bring them the Word of God and it is that which they revere. A statue depicting the Sacred Heart of Jesus reminds me of Jesus’ great love for mankind and when I see one I think to myself " I love you too" or “Thank you Jesus!” Am I talking to the plaster? Don’t be ridiculous, I’m talking to Jesus in my heart. The statue, picture or crucifix merely bring Him to mind.

The Eucharist is adored because when the bread is consecrated it becomes the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. He is there under the appearance of the bread. For the OP to believe that it is idolatry demonstrates a lack of understanding about either what idolatry is or what is believed about the Eucharist or both. Worship comes from the heart. Catholics believe that the Eucharist is JESUS, therefore bowing down before a monstrance is appropriate. What a non-believer thinks is contained within the monstrance is utterly irrelavant; the person bowing believes it is Christ, therefore they are not commiting idolatry.

 

[hosemonkey]

Yes, most definitely. The host is the actual body and soul of Jesus Christ. When we have Eucharistic Adoration, I kneel in front of the Eucharist. I worship Christ in the Eucharist. I often say “O Sacrament most holy, O Sacrament divine. All Praise and Thanksgiving be every moment Thine”. Now, if the host is mere bread, then I am saying that mere bread should be always praised. But I take Jesus at His word. He held the bread and said “This is my body”. Jesus said it, I believe it, that settles it. So since I believe what Jesus said, I believe the host is Jesus.

Amen! Protestants claim to believe that the Holy Bible is, in fact, literally true, every word,right? Then why don’t they take the very words of Jesus as being literally true? Why do they deny His precious gift to us? I believe that it because the Evil One has clouded their minds. I certainly worship Jesus in the Holy Eucharist, simply because He has assured us that He is really with us under the guise of bread and wine.

 

[thirdn6]

I have religious images and statues at home. Does that mean I am godless/atheist everytime I go to work because I don’t bring them?

I often think about God wherever I am asking for mercy and grace so I may be worthy to receive Jesus again in the Eucharist!

When I’m home I feel blessed when I see their pictures.

 

[c659smith]

In a King James Bible I saw a picture of God the Father. Since no one has seen God the Father does that mean protestants worship a false image?

 

[SIA]

In a King James Bible I saw a picture of God the Father. Since no one has seen God the Father does that mean protestants worship a false image?

Didn’t Jesus say, If you have seen me, you have seen the Father?