Why Islam denies the crucifixion of Christ

[sedonaman]

Hi, Morningstar! Maybe they will never understand or never confess that they understand, but I will keep saying it anyway. I assume that Planten is not the only Muslim here who needs to hear over and over again this concept of the Trinity from CHRISTIANS (not Qur’an!), so I will say it for whoever will read/listen. Remember from Isaiah 40 the voice telling us to make way for the Lord…we can each do this work! What Planten might not hear or understand, others might! If it helps just a little bit, even if I never know it, it is certainly worth it. If it doesn’t help, at least I tried to do a good thing. May God’s peace and love be with you always, as well.

How much time have Christians here in this thread devoted to explaining / defending their belief in the Trinity, and how much time have Muslims had to devote to explaining why they deny the crucifixion of Jesus?

 

[Nine_Two]

Planten still has yet to explain the errors in Surrah 9:30, which leads to a general fallibility in the Koran, specifically on the topic of whether or not Christ was crucified.

 

[dzheremi]

Equally futile exercises, both of them. We won’t accept any explanation from them (I don’t recall there being a question in the OP, anyway; it was more of a theory), and they won’t accept any question from us. And I know Planten, et. al. frequently go off topic, but the reality of the situation is that if we didn’t answer any off topic question from Muslims there would be almost no talk here about Islam. Plenty of people here spend an equal amount of time trying to get things back on topic, and it never works and everyone ends up frustrated anyway. I don’t really know what anybody is supposed to do about the fact that Muslims refuse to answer questions or stay on topic.

 

[KathleenGee]

Well, I am very surprised they say nothing as well when you point out, et. al…

It is true we need Muslims here to communicate with…

I wonder what can be said beyond what was described as characteristics of Hagar, the second wife of Abraham, and her descendents…

Roy Shoeman of ‘Salvation is from the Jews’, speaks of the Muslims and that they also have a place in end times…I just hope they are not the ones to bring this present world to an end through nuclear bombs…those should have never been used on any human beings.

So, then, to continue in circular and dead end conversations, perhaps what is needed is to re-define boundaries with them and their perculiarities…yesterday I prayed the rosary for everyone on Catholic Forum, especially the non-Catholic section.

The mystics say the soul is in itself made of Truth. So when the Truth is spoken, the recipient may reject it at first, but once planted…ha ha, we are doing the planting…

the truth eventually works its way down through the soul…and I think this is what Jharek meant to atleast be here for the Muslims in hopes that the truth will eventually take root.

 

[KathleenGee]

Of course, humor and photos do help alot!

 

[morning_star777]

Hi, Morningstar! Maybe they will never understand or never confess that they understand, but I will keep saying it anyway. I assume that Planten is not the only Muslim here who needs to hear over and over again this concept of the Trinity from CHRISTIANS (not Qur’an!), so I will say it for whoever will read/listen. Remember from Isaiah 40 the voice telling us to make way for the Lord…we can each do this work! What Planten might not hear or understand, others might! If it helps just a little bit, even if I never know it, it is certainly worth it. If it doesn’t help, at least I tried to do a good thing. May God’s peace and love be with you always, as well.

Alright friend, I really appreciate your thought & patience, and your passion to help them, although sometimes I do not see any hope but **perhaps there is still hope **and maybe some of then will hear and few can understand it too.God will always help you to achieve your goal.May God’s grace always be with you my brother.Amen.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Plenty of people here spend an equal amount of time trying to get things back on topic, and it never works and everyone ends up frustrated anyway. I don’t really know what anybody is supposed to do about the fact that Muslims refuse to answer questions or stay on topic.

Which, again, I hope people with “eyes to see” will be able to pick up on. When someone asks me a question about Christianity, I don’t have to go off on a tangent about Islam, Judaism or any other faith - I can respond within the context of Christianity, and keep on topic, and furthermore answer the question. Many of the most frequent Muslim posters simply refuse to do so.

 

[sedonaman]

… Many of the most frequent Muslim posters simply refuse to do so.

Because that’s the way they’ve been taught. While it is true that you must compare something to something else, it is telling what you choose for your comparison to that which is in question. Muslims, by choosing Christianity for their comparison, although their reasoning fails, inadvertently concede that Christianity is the Truth, and therefore, if it can be brought down to the level of Islam, it makes Islam equal and somehow vindicates it. Christianity, conversely, can stand on its own without any support from another.

To close out the debate on the Trinity, I quote St. Thomas Aquinas:

Chapter 2: How to argue with unbelievers

First of all, I wish to warn you that in disputations with unbelievers about articles of the Faith, you should not try to prove the Faith by necessary reasons. This would belittle the sublimity of the Faith, whose truth exceeds not only human minds but also those of angels; we believe in them only because they are revealed by God.

Yet whatever come from the Supreme Truth cannot be false, and what is not false cannot be repudiated by any necessary reason. Just as our Faith cannot be proved by necessary reasons, because it exceeds the human mind, so because of its truth it cannot be refuted by any necessary reason. So any Christian disputing about the articles of the Faith should not try to prove the Faith, but defend the Faith. Thus blessed Peter (1 Pet 3:15) did not say: “Always have your proof”, but “your answer ready,” so that reason can show that what the Catholic Faith holds is not false.

Chapter 3: How generation applies to God

First of all we must observe that Muslims are silly in ridiculing us for holding that Christ is the Son of the living God, as if God had a wife. Since they are carnal, they can think only of what is flesh and blood. For any wise man can observe that the mode of generation is not the same for everything, but generation applies to each thing according to the special manner of its nature. In animals it is by copulation of male and female; in plants it is by pollination or generation, and in other things in other ways.

God, however, is not of a fleshly nature, requiring a woman to copulate with to generate offspring, but He is of a spiritual or intellectual nature, much higher than every intellectual nature. So generation should be understood of God as it applies to an intellectual nature. Even though our own intellect falls far short of the divine intellect, we still have to speak of the divine intellect by comparing it with what we find in our own intellect.

REASONS FOR THE FAITH AGAINST MUSLIM OBJECTIONS
to the Cantor of Antioch
by Saint Thomas Aquinas
catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/islam/rationes.htm

Unquote.

 

[KathleenGee]

Sedodaman,

Thank you for such excellent references. I do see Islam as carnal as well. Thanks again!

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Many thanks for the link, sedonaman. I need to read that when I have more time.

 

[KathleenGee]

These latter posts make me wonder if more use of reason and science, logic is needed. I read a little of the early history of Islam and its renaissance that ended when its leadership held the position that the use of reason in faith could usurp the belief of God Himself.

So when reason was no longer drawn, then the closing of the Muslim man’s mind began along with the mistreatment of women.

Also, as they appear to learn by complete immersion with rote memorization exceeding critical thinking, logic, anthropology, they have little regard for staking out other peoples’ beliefs as another form of conquest. They stake. One of my resentments is how they refuse to acknowledge that Muhammed is in a totally different, nomadic culture and that he did have contact with the Jews and Christians and drew from them, as Sedonoman referred to, that without the Bible, they could not stand.

I think graphics work well to demonstrate truths of natural law. www.NewAgeIslam.com is a good place to see how Muslims are trying to recover their philosophical past.

 

[Daud_AbuOmid]

Yes, Muslims must adapt or become extinct in a global culture. Otherwise, the global culture will oppose their mysogyny until it is healed. From my perspective, their opposition to the Bayan & Iqan (the new Qur’án) is spiritual mysogyny.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Yes, Muslims must adapt or become extinct in a global culture. Otherwise, the global culture will oppose their mysogyny until it is healed. From my perspective, their opposition to the Bayan & Iqan (the new Qur’án) is spiritual mysogyny.

You raised a two-month old thread for a Bahai plug?