Why Islam?

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The Roman Catholic Church may indeed teach that Jews worship the same god, but I am unconvinced. Since Jews today have not converted to Christianity and accepted the New Covenant between God and man, they no longer worship God. We believe that the Son was begotten of his Father before all worlds, so when Jesus revealed himself to mankind, this was presumably something God would expect people to accept. You can’t even therefore say that Jews worship an outraged concept if God. They just worship someone else.
 
The Jews reject Christ, hence they do not worship God. Christ is God - the Trinity is not a buffet where you can pick and choose what you desire to worship. As the apostle John wrote:

No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. [1 John 2:23]

The only Jews today who worship the true God are those Christians who are Jews by ethnicity. The apostle Paul himself demonstrated that the true children of Abraham are those by faith:

And not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. [Rom 9:7-8]

Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. [Gal 3:7]

And the apostle John wrote in his gospel:

He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. [John 1:11-13]
 
I have seen that website before. As a matter of fact, I temporarily converted to Islam once in the past and believe me, I regret having done that because Islam is not a true religion. It does have some truth in it but only Catholicism has the fulness of the Truth.
 
They worship the one true God but in a very imperfect manner but that’s my 2 cents.
 
Jews and Muslims believe in the one true God, but not the correct way.
The laws muslims follow are different to what we are taught in Catholicism, so they ‘worship’ God, but not the way God wants them too.
Jews didnt follow Jesus, so they are incorrectly worshipping God as well
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
Any number of cents do not overrule the word of God.
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I would say that what you are saying is certainly true that to be a Christian is to believe in the Trinity, but if the question is what God to Jews worship, I would say the worship the Father to the exclusion of the other members of the Trinity.

If you doubt that this is the same Father, look at who Jesus (born to a Jewish mother) prayed to while he was with us.
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
Any number of cents do not overrule the word of God.
Click to expand...
I would say that what you are saying is certainly true that to be a Christian is to believe in the Trinity, but if the question is what God to Jews worship, I would say the worship the Father to the exclusion of the other members of the Trinity.

If you perhaps doubt that this is the same Father, look how Jesus (born to a Jewish mother) showed us how to pray - “Our Father, who art in Heavan…”
 
benjohnson said:
I would say that what you are saying is certainly true that to be a Christian is to believe in the Trinity, but if the question is what God to Jews worship, I would say the worship the Father to the exclusion of the other members of the Trinity.
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“And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” [John 14:21b]

No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. [1 John 2:23]

As I said before, the Trinity is not a buffet. You exclude one Person in the Trinity, you exclude them all. The Father will not respect and honor those who deny the Son, and those who deny the Son will be denied by him on the day of judgment (cf. Mt 10:33; Lk 9:26).
benjohnson said:
If you doubt that this is the same Father, look at who Jesus (born to a Jewish mother) prayed to while he was with us.
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You do realize this is the same argument that Muslims make to deny the Trinity, do you not? That Jesus, in his role as perfect man, prayed to the Father, does not denote that unbelieving Jews who deny his status as both Messiah and God, and reject his authority as Lord and King, worship the same God.

There is no such thing as worshiping God, just “incorrectly.” That’s foreign to scripture. You either worship God, or you do not. Denial of a Person in the Trinity is denying God. Denial of the words of God and the introduction of heresy and thought contrary to the word of God, is denial of God Himself, the author of those words.
 
dolphinlove said:
Jews and Muslims believe in the one true God, but not the correct way.
The laws muslims follow are different to what we are taught in Catholicism, so they ‘worship’ God, but not the way God wants them too.
Jews didnt follow Jesus, so they are incorrectly worshipping God as well
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I disagree regarding Muslims. Their god himself calls himself the great deceiver. There is no possible way they worship the True God.
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
As I said before, the Trinity is not a buffet. You exclude one Person in the Trinity, you exclude them all. The Father will not respect and honor those who deny the Son, and those who deny the Son will be denied by him on the day of judgment (cf. Mt 10:33; Lk 9:26).
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I understand what you’re saying, but please be aware that I’m not saying that Jews are Christians.

I’m saying that that the Jewish G-d named with the tetragrammaton is the same Father that the Jewish boy named Jesus prayed to. The Lord’s prayer as Jesus told us to pray starts with “Our Father” and not “Holy Trinity” for a reason.

You may not like the fact that Jesus was a Jew, but we can’t ignore it and pretend that we don’t have a new covenant of blood in Christ.
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
You do realize this is the same argument that Muslims make to deny the Trinity, do you not?
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Perhaps, but I’m not Muslim and I’m not responsible for what they think or if they are or are not sincere.
There is no such thing as worshiping God, just “incorrectly.” That’s foreign to scripture. You either worship God, or you do not. Denial of a Person in the Trinity is denying God. Denial of the words of God and the introduction of heresy and thought contrary to the word of God, is denial of God Himself, the author of those words.
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I invite you to come to my church and see my 2 year old child kneel at the alter rail. He has no idea about the Trinity, but he indeed is worshiping God in response to God’s grace.

Just because someone is not perfectly worshiping God, doesn’t give us the right to determine if it is pleasing or not in his His sight. If they either don’t have the mental capacity, the life experience, or the discernment to properly worship as we have been taught, then we are to educate, minister, and evangelize to them.

But for myself, I will not to judge what is in their hearts, for I tell you, my infant son’s heart is more pure than mine.
 
benjohnson said:
I understand what you’re saying, but please be aware that I’m not saying that Jews are Christians.

I’m saying that that the Jewish G-d named with the tetragrammaton is the same Father that the Jewish boy named Jesus prayed to. The Lord’s prayer as Jesus told us to pray starts with “Our Father” and not “Holy Trinity” for a reason.

You may not like the fact that Jesus was a Jew, but we can’t ignore it and pretend that we don’t have a new covenant of blood in Christ.
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Jesus, as a man, may have been a Jew, but what you seem to continually be forgetting is that Jesus was also God. Going to the Lord’s Prayer forgets firstly that it was an example prayer (hence Christ’s words “like this” or “in this manner” in the prelude to it), as well as other verses, where Christ tells us to address him and ask in his name (which signified his authority and deity) for what we need (Jn 14:13). You likewise forget other passages where the presence of the Trinity is clearly important (cf. Mt 28:19). You are likewise ignoring all passages cited which contradict your point. I would ask how you respond to verses which clearly teach that those who reject the Son reject the Father, or will be rejected by the Father. I ask you also to respond to verses which clearly speak of the authority of Christ, as Lord and God.

As it stands, you are currently quoting your own opinion against God’s word.
 
Since all the RCs in this thread are using the ’ one true God’ ’ very imperfect manner’ line I am going to guess this was probably written in Vatican II or something. What I and the other fellow are saying is that those who reject Jesus reject God because Jesus IS God. There is simply no way round it.
 
Indifferently said:
Since all the RCs in this thread are using the ’ one true God’ ’ very imperfect manner’ line I am going to guess this was probably written in Vatican II or something. What I and the other fellow are saying is that those who reject Jesus reject God because Jesus IS God. There is simply no way round it.
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It stems partially from the Roman Catholic Catechism which states:

“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” [841]

It also partially comes from Pope Paul VI’s To the Dignitaries and Representatives of Islam from August 1, 1969. I have spoken to some Roman Catholics, however, who realize the implications of all this towards the heresy of inclusivism, and hence are hesitant to interpret all these words as such.
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
Jesus, as a man, may have been a Jew, but what you seem to continually be forgetting is that Jesus was also God.
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Where exactly did I say our God is not the Trinity? I’m saying Jews have an imperfect concept of God, you say they have no concept of God. I find that premise impossible given that the Word made Flesh was born a Jew and loved the Father and prayed to him and is now seated at his right hand.

If what you are saying is true and you truly believe it, then logically your bible would have no Old Testament - why would you have books in your bible written by a people that deny God?

I don’t, as a general rule, proof-text without combining with my Church’s teaching.
 
benjohnson said:
Where exactly did I say our God is not the Trinity? I’m saying Jews have an imperfect concept of God, you say they have no concept of God. I find that premise impossible given that the Word made Flesh was born a Jew and loved the Father and prayed to him and is now seated at his right hand.

If what you are saying is true and you truly believe it, then logically your bible would have no Old Testament - why would you have books in your bible written by a people that deny God?

I don’t, as a general rule, proof-text without combining with my Church’s teaching.
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Jesus, the Son, IS God. And he always has been. This could not have been known to the Israelites. Once it was revealed, however, by God, the people are obliged to worship him. If they do not, they turn their backs on God.
 
benjohnson said:
Where exactly did I say our God is not the Trinity? I’m saying Jews have an imperfect concept of God, you say they have no concept of God. I find that premise impossible given that the Word made Flesh was born a Jew and loved the Father and prayed to him and is now seated at his right hand.

If what you are saying is true and you truly believe it, then logically your bible would have no Old Testament - why would you have books in your bible written by a people that deny God?

I don’t, as a general rule, proof-text without combining with my Church’s teaching.
Click to expand...
Firstly, while you did not say “God is not the Trinity,” you essentially argue that it is perfectly fine for Jews to deny God is a Trinity, despite the teachings of Christ on this regard (Jn 14:21; 1 Jn 2:23). You keep going back to Jesus - I’m sorry, but while Jesus was a Jew, not all Jews are Jesus, therefore your point is irrelevant.

Secondly, the contention that the writers of the Old Testament denied God is misrepresenting my position. The Jews of the Old Testament did not have a full revelation of the Trinity, but they worshiped and honored the true God under the old covenant. Jews today do not do this because they deny the Son, which scripture clearly says is important. In the old testament period, the Jews worshiped Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the one God, just as Christians today do, only with fuller revelation.

Thirdly, I didn’t ask you to proof-text, I asked you to respond to the verses I quoted which contradict your position. If you think all I did was proof-text them out of context, go ahead and demonstrate how I did so. Otherwise, you are, again, arguing against scripture with your own opinion. I also point out that as you attempted to allegorize verses before, you are being inconsistent with this contention.
 
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