Why Islam?

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‘Pinheads/angels’ conversations can be quite entertaining.
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
Firstly, while you did not say “God is not the Trinity,” you essentially argue that it is perfectly fine for Jews to deny God is a Trinity, despite the teachings of Christ on this regard (Jn 14:21; 1 Jn 2:23). You keep going back to Jesus - I’m sorry, but while Jesus was a Jew, not all Jews are Jesus, therefore your point is irrelevant.

Secondly, the contention that the writers of the Old Testament denied God is misrepresenting my position. The Jews of the Old Testament did not have a full revelation of the Trinity, but they worshiped and honored the true God under the old covenant. Jews today do not do this because they deny the Son, which scripture clearly says is important. In the old testament period, the Jews worshiped Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the one God, just as Christians today do, only with fuller revelation.

Thirdly, I didn’t ask you to proof-text, I asked you to respond to the verses I quoted which contradict your position. If you think all I did was proof-text them out of context, go ahead and demonstrate how I did so. Otherwise, you are, again, arguing against scripture with your own opinion. I also point out that as you attempted to allegorize verses before, you are being inconsistent with this contention.
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Well said
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
you essentially argue that it is **perfectly **fine for Jews to deny God is a Trinity,
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I’ve done no such thing - I’ve stated that Jews have an imperfect understanding of God. I am not saying imperfect = prefect.
but they worshiped and honored the true God under the old covenant.
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Are you saying God withdrew entirely withdrew the Old Covenant? If so then that’s the crux of our disagreement.
Thirdly, I didn’t ask you to proof-text, I asked you to respond to the verses I quoted which contradict your position.
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I saw no contradiction as you continually mistake my argument in insisting that I am arguing that “God is not the Trinity.” I’m arguing that Jews have an imperfect understanding of God.

I would also say that your argument presupposes that only people who have a perfect understanding of the Trinity are able to worship God in any fashon. I view this is as incorrect - in that many older people with dementia, babies, and people with diminished brain capacity are able to properly worship God as they are able. *

I will point out that I even though some people consider me intelligent, I do not have a perfect understanding of the Trinity. The true nuances escape me and are a mystery to me. I pray that my worship is pleasing in His sight.

I’m afraid we will not resolve these arguments in a positive maner, and I wish you peace and you have my respect.

N.B.: * I’m not saying my Jewish friends have diminished brain capacity… we’ll maybe some of them after a good Passover Seder 🙂
 
ThatOrthodoxGuy said:
No need to be rude or name calling.
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I don’t think it was meant to be rude but a reference to the arguments that break out when people try to figure out “How many angles can fit on a head of a pin (pinhead)”

The idea that sometimes we argue about silly thing of no consequence, and from the sidelines it can be quite amusing.

I personally think our augment is of consequence, but a Jewish person who is comfortable in their faith, it would probably be quite amusing to see Christians argue if Jews worship G-d or not.
 
Ben, if you desire to discontinue conversation, I will respect that, and not ask you to continue. Just for the sake of future conversation, and so that no one has a misunderstanding of what I was saying:
benjohnson said:
I’ve done no such thing - I’ve stated that Jews have an imperfect understanding of God. I am not saying imperfect = prefect.
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I have argued that there is no such thing as worshiping God, but with an “imperfect understanding” of God, insofar as one worships Him. One either worships the one true God, or they do not. This is seen throughout scripture. “Imperfectly” worshiping God is not worshiping God at all.
benjohnson said:
Are you saying God withdrew entirely withdrew the Old Covenant?
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In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. [Hebrews 8:13]
benjohnson said:
I saw no contradiction as you continually mistake my argument in insisting that I am arguing that “God is not the Trinity.”
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If you read my last response, you’ll see I recognized that, and was instead responding to the implication your position led, and your opinion regarding the Jewish worship of God. It ultimately led to the conclusion: “One need not believe God is a Trinity to be considered worshiping the true God.”
benjohnson said:
I would also say that your argument presupposes that only people who have a perfect understanding of the Trinity are able to worship God in any fashon. I view this is as incorrect - in that many older people with dementia, babies, and people with diminished brain capacity are able to properly worship God as they are able.
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On the contrary, my position was never that one should have a ThD understanding of the Trinity, only that they recognize God as Trinitarian. I refer back to the verses I have quoted and cited ad nauseum regarding honoring the Son and the Father together, and that he who does not have one does not have the honor. They haven’t been responded to yet, and to be perfectly blunt, they rarely are in these conversations, because they can’t be answered.
 
Indifferently said:
Jesus, the Son, IS God. And he always has been. This could not have been known to the Israelites. Once it was revealed, however, by God, the people are obliged to worship him. If they do not, they turn their backs on God.
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I agree 100%.

For me, the question then becomes, “Have I proclaimed the Gospel to my Jewish neighbors with the Holy Spirit in my heart?”
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
“Imperfectly” worshiping God is not worshiping God at all.
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Sorry… I couldn’t resit your thought.

I think I understand what you’re saying, in that God has given us understanding and we dare not deny it. I try not to deny Him - to the best of my ability.

Only for me, I hope my imperfect worship still pleases God for I freely admit that my worship isn’t prefect. It is quite flawed. I ask for things that are not mine, I usually refuse to submit to his will, I am never perfectly contrite, and I often do not understand. These are my own flaws and I can’t blame any other.
 
Certainly no one person’s worship is “perfect,” that is, in regards as to whether we really pray as well as we should, or attend church with as earnest an attitude as we can, etc. However, with a repentant heart that leans upon the Lord for our salvation, we can know that we have a truly great High Priest who overlooks our imperfections, assists us to improve, and loves us all the same.
 
If I may step in here, I think there are two different concerns being expressed here. benjohnson’s concern seems primarily to be preserving the identity of God. That is, the God who led the Jews out of Egypt and who was worshiped by the Jews is the same God worshiped by us, and by extension is the same object (to use a rather crude term) of worship of even modern day Jews. Byzantine_Wolf’s concern seems to be protecting the Scriptural affirmation that one must worship The Father through the Son. I don’t think the two are necessarily contradictory, however, especially, if we examine Jesus’ exchange with the Samaritan woman at the well in John 4. Specifically, he remarks to her (in a somewhat cryptic fashion) that she worships what she knows not (benjohnson’s proposition about modern Jews), and that the day will come when the true worshipers will worship the father in spirit and in truth (Byzantine_Wolf’s concern that those who worship the Father through the Son are the only true worshipers).
 
Cavaradossi said:
If I may step in here, I think there are two different concerns being expressed here. benjohnson’s concern seems primarily to be preserving the identity of God. That is, the God who led the Jews out of Egypt and who was worshiped by the Jews is the same God worshiped by us, and by extension is the same object (to use a rather crude term) of worship of even modern day Jews. Byzantine_Wolf’s concern seems to be protecting the Scriptural affirmation that one must worship The Father through the Son. I don’t think the two are necessarily contradictory, however, especially, if we examine Jesus’ exchange with the Samaritan woman at the well in John 4. Specifically, he tells her that she worships what she knows not (benjohnson’s proposition about modern Jews), and that the day will come when the true worshipers will worship the father in spirit and in truth (Byzantine_Wolf’s concern that those who worship the father through the Son are the only true worshipers).
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Cavaradossi;

Christ’s statement to the Samaritan woman was actually a criticism of her faith. The Jews considered the Samaritans to be heretics because they mixed the Jewish faith with the pagan teachings that had come from the Assyrians and other groups, hence the full quote from Christ: “You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews” (John 4:22). It has nothing to do with Jews today, really.

I’m curious, as well, what your response to 1 John 2:23 is?
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
Cavaradossi;

Christ’s statement to the Samaritan woman was actually a criticism of her faith. The Jews considered the Samaritans to be heretics because they mixed the Jewish faith with the pagan teachings that had come from the Assyrians and other groups, hence the full quote from Christ: “You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews” (John 4:22). It has nothing to do with Jews today, really.
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I am aware of the context behind the beliefs of the Samaritans. The Jews of today are like the Samaritans, in that they worship what they know not.
Byzantine_Wolf said:
I’m curious, as well, what your response to 1 John 2:23 is?
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While they worship the Father, because they do not do so in truth, in the Spirit and through the Son, their worship profits them nothing, and so they do not “have the Father.” I don’t think we need to deny that the object of their worship is the Father, only that their worship is true or of any soteriological value.
 
I personally despise the bulk of Islam. And to even hear of this is appalling to say the least. If you saw something like that about Catholicism in Iran or anywhere in the ME, you would be burned alive, or stoned to death for breaking Sharia Law! :mad:
 
Holly3278 said:
I have seen that website before. As a matter of fact, I temporarily converted to Islam once in the past and believe me, I regret having done that because Islam is not a true religion. It does have some truth in it but only Catholicism has the fulness of the Truth.
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You wouldn’t have been the only one, I’ve also fallen prey to the Muslim apologists in their arguments against the Trinity, etc… I have to admit I was very young, and did not thoroughly understand what Christianity teaches or how the faith arrived at the conclusions it has in regards to certain doctrines.
 
I have met a few Muslims who have shown me WhyIslam and similar websites, and some of their arguments seem to make a lot of sense (at least superficially 🙂 ).

I don’t know if you’ve visited answering-christianity.com/ac.htm and noticed that even if you type in “www.answeringislam.com”, you will be redirected to answering-christianity.com/ac.htm :hmmm: … If you go to answering-islam.org/ it has more of both sides, but mostly it’s pro-Christian.

Most of the dialog seems to be between Muslims and Protestant Christians for some reason. 🤷 When I see a debate, I sometimes feel that the Christian is walking with one foot because the debater is usually a Protestant who doesn’t see the whole picture… Sometimes I actually agree with the Muslim debater because of my Catholic background 😃 ! IMO, the Christian case is much stronger if the Christian believes that Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church and that the Church compiled the God-inspired Bible.

There are debates/talks/books/websites by Robert Spencer. Jim Burnham also has a book out (Beginning Apologetics 9: How to Talk to Muslims). Peter Kreeft has written and talked about Islam: Good Muslim, Bad Muslim and Between Muhammad and Jesus 👍 I wish there were more, though! 🙂
 
Alicia05 said:
Most of the dialog seems to be between Muslims and Protestant Christians for some reason. 🤷 When I see a debate, I sometimes feel that the Christian is walking with one foot because the debater is usually a Protestant who doesn’t see the whole picture… Sometimes I actually agree with the Muslim debater because of my Catholic background 😃 ! IMO, the Christian case is much stronger if the Christian believes that Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church and that the Church compiled the God-inspired Bible.
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In what way?
 
I was curious and I opened the library of all knowledge (wikipedia) to learn more about Islam. I was amazed to see strikng similarities (as much as there are irreconcilable contradictions) between Christianity and Islam. I mean, it’s new to me that they believe that to them Jesus is a Messiah in another sense, and that there’s a second coming where Christ will defeat the anti Christ. Just thinking aloud. Anyone who asks why Islam should first have a firm understanding of why Christianity.
 
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