Why Isn't Everyone Catholic?

[Bubba_Switzler]

This is a new thread to continue a discusison that went off-topic in another thread.

The question I want to pose here is twofold:

1. Why isn’t everyone Catholic? Catholic dogma, after, is true, isn’t it?
2. Why are Catholics such pathetic evangelists? You’d think someone in posession of the truth would be at an advantage.

So to get things started, some points from the previous thread:

I’d say the best biblical basis for the magisterium is the fact that Jesus gave His authority to His Apostles/Church in several places. First is that He gave the “Bind and Loose” authority to Peter and later gave this same instruction/authority to Apostles as a group. Secondly He gave Peter and the Church the Keys to the Kingdom. This is a very authoritative gesture in those kingly times.

I’m sure you must be aware that Protestants will interpret these scriptures differently than Catholics. And it becomes a circular argument to say that Catholics are correct in their interpretation because the magisterium says so.

Finally there is the very fact that the Bible most Protestants hold in their hands is there only BECAUSE of the Magisterial authority of the Church which canonized the books.

Yes, this is an example of a very solid argument that does not rely on faith but on historical facts that both Catholics and Protestants should be equally able to observe.

A corollary is that most Protestants accept the Nicene Creed. They only do so on the authority of the Catholic Church from whence they inherited it. If you want a good laugh, watch the outrage Trinitarian Protestants muster against non-Trinitarian Protestants. The non-Trinitarians have the virtue of greater consistency in their anti-Catholicism.

Ditto.

True and all too often we have to just place the information out there and let the Holy Spirit work. We cannot force the change.

Well, ok, but Protestants claim that the Holy Spirit guids them in their un-Catholic interpretation.

Check out Alex Jones’ excellent book and you’ll see why Protestants are quite mistaken in the presumption that the ECFs will take them anywhere but Romeward.

amazon.com/No-Price-too-High-Pentecostal/dp/0898709199/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232397177&sr=8-1

Yes, this is a good response to the Protestant tradition of cutting out the Catholic dogma and trying to get to the pre-Catholic faith.

The fatal presumption is that our interlocutors are open to reason. Many simply are not, which is why the best apologetic remains living one’s faith and letting others see you do so.

That’s way too cynical a view. Not that you are not correct in some instances but it is very uncharitable to presume bad faith on the part of those who believe differently.

 

[sambos671]

1. Why are Catholics such pathetic evangelists? You’d think someone in posession of the truth would be at an advantage.

According to this source guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/31/religion the number of Catholics are 1.25 Billion. Total Christians are 2.15 Billion so 58% of all christians world wide are Catholic. More than half so not so shabby evangelist. Though they are loosing ground world wide.

1. Why isn’t everyone Catholic? Catholic dogma, after, is true, isn’t it?

Complicated answer different for many.

Well, ok, but Protestants claim that the Holy Spirit guids them in their un-Catholic interpretation.

This statement is problematic because many of the protetants teachings are Catholic in origine such as the Trinity etc… The fact that protestant churches perform good works and people are lead to Jesus by protestants doesn’t show how impotent the church is but how potent the truth taught by the Chruch is. Imagine how far protestants have come with just one aspect of the magesterium! Even misunderstood! Anyway some thoughts on what you said.

 

[Teflon93]

That’s way too cynical a view. Not that you are not correct in some instances but it is very uncharitable to presume bad faith on the part of those who believe differently.

Saying that people are not open to reason on matters of religion is hardly uncharitable. I being an NT Rational in the Myers-Briggs/Keirsey typology receive rational argument quite readily; it is my predisposition. We NTs are something on the order of 2% of the population, however; the majority of people have either SJ or SP types which tend toward other motivators. Our clergy have a large proportion of NFs, another rare type, motivated largely by feeling and emotion. Your response is more typical of NFs.

The point being that I said nothing about bad faith (or good faith, for that matter); merely that some may not be open to reason on such matters.

I think that statement, far from being cynical, is as close to a truism as anything I’ve uttered.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Though they are loosing ground world wide.

I think Catholics have been losing ground ever since the Protestant Reformation.

This statement is problematic because many of the protetants teachings are Catholic in origine such as the Trinity etc… The fact that protestant churches perform good works and people are lead to Jesus by protestants doesn’t show how impotent the church is but how potent the truth taught by the Chruch is.

While there are some Catholic missionary efforts in Africa, it seems that Protestants are much more aggressive in converting non-Christians (particularly in Asia). This wouldn’t be a problem if Catholics were able to convert Protestants, then Protestantism would simply be an entryway.

 

[IrishJoe]

1. Why isn’t everyone Catholic? Catholic dogma, after, is true, isn’t it?

1. Why are Catholics such pathetic evangelists? You’d think someone in posession of the truth would be at an advantage.

i) erm you need to prove it is true

ii) assuming it is true you need to be able to prove it is true with evidence. Evidence lacking = no proof. Ya know ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ and all that

 

[LilyM]

Jesus was in possession of ALL truth, and certainly not everyone believed Him. Many still don’t.

I doubt that makes Him a pathetic evangelist, it’s just a natural result of human stubbornness. It’s part of the joy of being human that some will add two and two, get five, and persist in thinking the correct answer is five no matter how many times you try to show them otherwise.

 

[Soutane]

Everyone WAS Catholic for the first 1500 years.

Everyone WILL be Catholic in the end(Heaven)

I wouldn’t call over 1.1 billion Catholics losing ground.

 

[sambos671]

I was just reading a publication from my diocese and here are a couple of interesting articles:

Several Paritioners are going to Austria to be missionaries to eastern Europe.

A teacher is going to Iraq to serve communities there

Our Bishop was in the prisons giving mass to those there

The Pope Emphasizes Parents role in the baptism and upbringing of their children in the Catholic Faith.

There is a National Catholic move against FOCA.

The Catholic Church is evangelizing.

 

[Teflon93]

Everyone WAS Catholic for the first 1500 years.

Everyone WILL be Catholic in the end(Heaven)

I wouldn’t call over 1.1 billion Catholics losing ground.

Indeed, Protestantism continues to generate schism after schism. “Seeker” and “nondenominational” communities, while the latest fad, haven’t made up for mainstream Protestant denomination hemhorraging members throughout the last century.

Protestants also aren’t having enough children to maintain their numbers, a consequence of rejecting their own prior tradition regarding birth control.

 

[Arandur]

I recall reading in several places that various evangelical and some other denominations experience an average 3-7 year life cycle, where they attract many members and then start losing them. This is apparently one of the reasons that they try to keep escalating the entertainment value of their services.

I’ll try to find those articles that I refer to, but perhaps some here have seen similar things? If true, it’s a demonstration of the lack of durability of wayward Christian groups, and makes the Catholic Church look good by comparison.

 

[BareKnuckler]

This is a new thread to continue a discusison that went off-topic in another thread.

The question I want to pose here is twofold:

1. Why isn’t everyone Catholic? Catholic dogma, after, is true, isn’t it?
2. Why are Catholics such pathetic evangelists? You’d think someone in posession of the truth would be at an advantage.

1. Because many people’s culture never even heard of Jesus until later on after him, and they choose to stick with what their people have stuck with for centuries before. Some people who are Christians choose to identify themselves as Christians before Catholics, and choose to stick to the bible, since it is the source they see as only true, and they do not see the proof for the Pope, or Priests power. Some people also do not like that the RCC has had many bad things done by it in history, and choose to not let that become a part of their history. Some might also, just flat out hate the RCC and its teachings (I am not one of them, I have my reasons, but you can call me one if ya like )
2. I didn’t know they were. I mean I had read on a lot of catholic websites about how they wanted to grow by using evangelism like many baptists/methodists and others do, but it said they were having problems with it, but I doubt its a major issue. I doubt anyone can match the JW’s in spreading faith though, since they are very known for door-to-door.

Well, who is to say they are in possesion of the truth? Really, it depends on the person’s opinoin, not facts. You can take a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink. I personally do not believe the RCC is the true church, that is my opinoin. If you believe it is, that is yours. My belief is to let everyone have a opinoin and not try to force them into changing it, cause then they should have a right to make you stop forcing people into a opinoin they do not desire.

 

[BareKnuckler]

Indeed, Protestantism continues to generate schism after schism. “Seeker” and “nondenominational” communities, while the latest fad, haven’t made up for mainstream Protestant denomination hemhorraging members throughout the last century.

Protestants also aren’t having enough children to maintain their numbers, a consequence of rejecting their own prior tradition regarding birth control.

My great-grandma had 13 children and she was a baptist, and they all remained baptist, and still are, and all their children are raised baptist/methodist, so erhm ya, , apparently your idea that protestants don’t have enough is false friend.

 

[Teflon93]

My great-grandma had 13 children and she was a baptist, and they all remained baptist, and still are, and all their children are raised baptist/methodist, so erhm ya, , apparently your idea that protestants don’t have enough is false friend.

Or perhaps it’s truer to say that your experience is not typical.

Of course, the notion that children can be raised “baptist/methodist” rather proves my point, right? No such denomination exists according to my research.

Which begs the question—why weren’t they all Baptists?

 

[sambos671]

Or perhaps it’s truer to say that your experience is not typical.

Of course, the notion that children can be raised “baptist/methodist” rather proves my point, right? No such denomination exists according to my research.

Which begs the question—why weren’t they all Baptists?

You’re wrong on the having children count. Evangelical christians may be having fewer children and the more liberal protestant churches like the Episcopals. But I think the Fundalmentalist are doing pretty well in that catagory.

BTW does anybody have good referrance material for the Catholic activity and position during world war two. Especially with regards to Nazi Germany?

 

[Teflon93]

You’re wrong on the having children count. Evangelical christians may be having fewer children and the more liberal protestant churches like the Episcopals. But I think the Fundalmentalist are doing pretty well in that catagory.

Your thought is noted—where are the stats?

BTW does anybody have good referrance material for the Catholic activity and position during world war two. Especially with regards to Nazi Germany?

You should ask this in another thread, lest people mistake your question for an assertion that not everyone’s Catholic due to some veiled inference about the Nazis.

 

[sambos671]

Your thought is noted—where are the stats?

You should ask this in another thread, lest people mistake your question for an assertion that not everyone’s Catholic due to some veiled inference about the Nazis.

Uh… I don’t have any… but personal experience tells me that the fundalmentalist I have met have more than two children on average some as many as 7 that I’ve personally met. My personal experience also shows me that most episcopals that I know have on average 1 child if any. So I admittedly say that I have no stats except from the people that I’ve met which are a minute sample size. does that help?

As far as the other you may be right but I’m still interested because I keep getting flack about it. Thanks.

 

[Teflon93]

Uh… I don’t have any… but personal experience tells me that the fundalmentalist I have met have more than two children on average some as many as 7 that I’ve personally met. My personal experience also shows me that most episcopals that I know have on average 1 child if any. So I admittedly say that I have no stats except from the people that I’ve met which are a minute sample size. does that help?

Down here in the Bible Belt it’s rare to find any Protestant family with more than 2 children. 2.1 is replacement level.

I’ll dig up Pew Research stats and see if they’ve got a birth rate breakdown which cuts Protestantism into the various denominations.

As far as the other you may be right but I’m still interested because I keep getting flack about it. Thanks.

There are a number of threads on the topic—the search feature should come in handy for finding these; otherwise a new thread would work.

Check Shirer’s “Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” if you have a copy handy—he devotes a couple of pages to it and many people have a copy of this book. There have been a number of monographs on the subject, however, and these of course give fuller treatment.

 

[Arandur]

Well, who is to say they are in possesion of the truth? Really, it depends on the person’s opinoin, not facts.

Truth is a matter of opinion?

My belief is to let everyone have a opinoin and not try to force them into changing it, cause then they should have a right to make you stop forcing people into a opinoin they do not desire.

A lot of the talk these days of people “forcing” their beliefs on other people is wholly unfounded. Just how do you “force” someone into an opinion? What is usually going on is that the person complaining is just upset because they either just don’t like what someone else is saying and are thus intolerant, or they are upset that their own ideas are being challenged and they don’t like the feeling that they may be wrong.

Instances of forcing people to observe some ritual or other are, I expect, exceedingly rare in this country by comparison.

There are instances of harassment, where a proselytizer doesn’t respect someone’s wishes to be left alone, but I think these are relatively few, even among the more aggressive proselytizers.

 

[spoiltvictorian]

Everyone always says Catholics are such poor evangelists, but are they really?

1. Other denominations aren’t good evangelists if they’re spreading errors.
2. Many Catholics understand they must not only run their race, but they are also responsible for their descendants. Other denominations are more likely to feel responsible only for themselves and don’t mind burning out.
3. Catholic evangelists might do more secret work. Other denominations can be showy.
4. Yes, Catholics have more children and rightly see that as evangelism.
5. Finally, there are many zealous Catholic evangelists. Lately I meet them roughly often as I meet anyone of any denomination - but usually through friends and family, not at my front door.

 

[Soutane]

Everyone always says Catholics are such poor evangelists, but are they really?

1. Other denominations aren’t good evangelists if they’re spreading errors.
2. Many Catholics understand they must not only run their race, but they are also responsible for their descendants. Other denominations are more likely to feel responsible only for themselves and don’t mind burning out.
3. Catholic evangelists might do more secret work. Other denominations can be showy.
4. Yes, Catholics have more children and rightly see that as evangelism.
5. Finally, there are many zealous Catholic evangelists. Lately I meet them roughly often as I meet anyone of any denomination - but usually through friends and family, not at my front door.

Spot on .If you believe all this,why are you LCMS.And I apologise for my ignorance but what do the letters stand for?