Why isn't guaranteed maternity leave a "pro-life" imperative?

[Elizabeth3]

Yes, the UK does. So does much of Europe. But that’s not essential, is it, really? That’s a massive privilege. The Feds get 12 weeks, and the DOD gets 12 weeks fully paid.

The UK didn’t start out with that massive privilege. It started smaller and continued to increase as it probably would in the U.S. over time as well.

It’s taxed no more than my dual income household is - about 1/3.

So it appears but it’s not just income tax that increases to pay for such benefits. It results in higher taxes on goods and services, fuel, housing etc to cover the costs. Once again, single income families are burdened by increased cost and lose their choice to care for their own children because the cost of everything is much too high for one parent to stay home. Raising you own children shouldn’t be a penalty and if dual income homes get some benefits from all these higher tax costs, then there should be some way for single income home to benefit from them too instead of being expected to fund them and on a more limited income than a dual income family.

Again - working Americans aren’t wealthy. I’m not talking about wealthy people. I’m talking about WORKING people - the middle class. Not the wealthy. Good grief.

I didn’t say that. I said that by driving up taxes in order to benefit dual income earners, more and more families who aren’t wealthy lose the ability to even have a choice to raise their own children because it becomes unaffordable to swing a single income AND pay more in taxes to favor dual income families. The only people left who can choose to raise their own kids are those who are wealthy. Something so basic shouldn’t be a privilege of the wealthy.

 

[ChaosGamma]

I meant the public schools. Considering how much learning is going on in many cases they basically amount to public daycare.

Also, “public” is just a euphemism to cover up that the ruling class exists. “The people” do no rule and never have.

 

[ChaosGamma]

Yes, and part of that is more people competing for jobs now that women, by and large, are not homemakers.

 

[ChaosGamma]

Which doesn’t mean if you mandated maternity leave here that that is what would happen. Good grief. What makes people think everything has to be exactly the way it is somewhere else?

Not too sure how we’ve jumped from “why can’t we mandate maternity leave” to “oh that means they’d take our homeschool rights away”. We’re not the UK or Europe in most respects as it is.

Because the real issue is the continued erosion of Chsitianity from social life. The government taking over roles that should be filled by the family, the community and the Church is part of this.

The State is a jealous god.

 

[KathleenT]

I don’t want to re-hash the abortion debate but I do want to point out a few things.

First, a child’s worth is NOT determined by their parents. Every child is a wanted child, he or she is wanted by God.

Second, what proof do you have that the pro-life is not concerned with the quality of life of children? This accusation came out en mass after Trump was elected and no one has ever bothered to give proof. I know Catholic Charaties is incredibly active in this area and I know my local parishes are always supporting the pregency centers, early education, food banks and housing assistance. So, again, what proof do you have to back up your claim that “most” pro-life people stop caring about the quality of life?

If you honestly believe the children are being born into a miserable existence, the solution is to ease the misery not get rid of the children.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

If you look at the countries with the “best” maternity policies they have outright made homeschooling illegal or basically ban it. The correlation is strong and it’s really scary. It’s the one that matters most to me, but there’s others.

Which doesn’t mean if you mandated maternity leave here that that is what would happen. Good grief. What makes people think everything has to be exactly the way it is somewhere else?

Not too sure how we’ve jumped from “why can’t we mandate maternity leave” to “oh that means they’d take our homeschool rights away”. We’re not the UK or Europe in most respects as it is.

I’m not talking about isolated cases. The better the maternity (and paternity) leave, the more restrictive and draconian the laws and social structures around what happens after that are. Something has got to give for the employers to be on board.

Another problematic issue my friend reminded me of is that many of the countries with “excellent” maternity care and time off after have abortion rates as high as 98%-100% of special needs children-downs syndrome especially. America is not saintly with a 60%-70% rate but parents are still choosing their children.

Government control over the workforce is also huge. We have far more big business here…business that can grow and make their own decisions. Some do it badly but they have the opportunity to be a big business. Those employers who aren’t “part time college kids” oriented (where adults can’t live off the salary) often have some of the better maternity leave in our country…because they can basically act like a mini country.

You can’t just look at the welfare of the mother an child pregnancy and 12 weeks or 26 weeks or 52 weeks postpartum. Society must be structured differently for long term forced paid maternity leave to work on a small scale.

 

[QwertyGirl]

If you honestly believe the children are being born into a miserable existence, the solution is to ease the misery not get rid of the children.

Preventing the conception of unwanted children is more what I am concerned about. If we are able to do that, everything else is moot. Saying that God wants all children maybe the truth. However, it has nothing to do with parents who are unwilling or incapable of caring for a child properly

 

[KathleenT]

Well, that can be what you are most concerned about but you aren’t going to find much agreement on a Catholic website.

The Church’s teachings are very clear on this matter and there are plenty of Catholics who have gone against those teachings to learn the hard way the Church is right.

You cannot prevent every inconvenient conception. Life is too messy for that. Every birth control method other than outright sterilization fails. And when that happens, everyone cries about how we need abortion to deal with those “inconviences.”

There is no social welfare program that will ever be good enough for most of the pro-choice to take abortion off the table. It is all empty promises, “well someday abortion won’t be needed…”. That’s been the song and dance for the last 30 years.

 

[QwertyGirl]

Not eliminated. But reduced significantly. It matters.

 

[KathleenT]

You know what else significantly reduces abortion? Making it illegal.

Then you will have all these babies and all the lukewarm pro-life and pro-choice people will have to come face to face with the reality we are in this together. These children need homes, need food, need education, need safe places to play. If they don’t get that, it will cause big problems for all of us.

See, most people are good or want to preceive themselves as good but our nature makes us a bit lazy. Faced with a crying child that needs help, most of us will help them. Faced with an abstract idea of a child that needs help, you won’t get as good of a response. That’s human nature.

So long as abortion exists as an escape hatch, your social welfare programs will never exist. The lukewarm will just shrug and go on with their lives. They follow the path of the least resistance.

So the best and fastest way to get your social welfare programs is to be pro-life…so why are you pro-choice?

 

[QwertyGirl]

I am pro-choice for all of the reasons other pro-choice people are pro-choice. I value human life, but have different ideas of when a person really comes into being. That is why I don’t have a problem with early term abortion. I don’t argue that here, though.

Clearly, you and I have different views when it comes to this issue. I am OK with that. I don’t feel a burning need to convince you of my way of thinking. It is impossible, so it is wasted effort to try to do so. I accept that we all don’t have to believe the same things.

Again, the reality is that we live in a time when we have the technology (as in birth control; not talking about abortion here) to prevent the greatest majority of unwanted pregnancy. No woman loves to get an abortion. It is so unnecesary, because unwanted pregnancy is unnecesary. I believe as a society we should educate and provide the means to eliminate unwanted pregnancy (by making birth control and reproductive health care available to everyone( again, not even talking about abortion here) to the greatest extent possible. That is where I would prefer to see the dollars go. Not sure how this diverted to a discussion about abortion.

ETA: Just want to add that , athough I am politically Pro-Choice, when I think of Pro-Life I don’t think “anti-abortion”. I think “providing support to others in ways that show a belief in the value of life”. It is funny. That isn’t what most pro-choice or pro-life people think that term means, I believe. Maybe I have it completely wrong. I don’t see both terms as being mutually exclusive. I think it is unfortunate that most people believe you can’t be both at the same time.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

See, most people are good or want to preceive themselves as good but our nature makes us a bit lazy. Faced with a crying child that needs help, most of us will help them. Faced with an abstract idea of a child that needs help, you won’t get as good of a response. That’s human nature.

So long as abortion exists as an escape hatch, your social welfare programs will never exist. The lukewarm will just shrug and go on with their lives. They follow the path of the least resistance.

So the best and fastest way to get your social welfare programs is to be pro-life…so why are you pro-choice?

Yeah no. The countries with those “social welfare” programs abort everyone who isn’t perfect. Ending abortion is not the way to curing poverty through government. Nor is the promotion of it going to end poverty. Abortion is it’s own evil and even in countries with the “best” maternal support and overall low rate it’s being used to anniliate certain people.

 

[KathleenT]

I agree with you.

I don’t think we can cure poverty at all. I do think we can all do things to make people’s lives better.

I was using “social welfare programs” as short hand for caring for the poor, and helping those in need. Whether it is individuals, the churches, civic groups or government programs I don’t really care. I think there is a place for all of them.

But there is a disconnect between “We want to make the children’s lives better” while at the same time “We need to be able to destroy the youngest and most vulnerable.” It is mental gymnastics to expect people to support better education, medical care and housing for children while we murder children to a tune of several thousand a day.

If you want to wake up people’s conscience so we do a better job taking care of each other, you have to start at the beginning. Society will never value children while we continue to kill them.

 

[QwertyGirl]

If you want to wake up people’s conscience so we do a better job taking care of each other, you have to start at the beginning. Society will never value children while we continue to kill them

Most people who have abortions are able to do so because they don’t believe they are killing children, as you put it. IF you truly believe an early term zygote is a person, then that is where you have to start. It is as if you think people believe they are actually killing babies. They don’t believe that. If you wan tthem to believe it, that is where you need to start. Educating as to why you believe it is a full person; not accusing someone of murdering children.

 

[TheLittleLady]

We lived in family groups. There would be a maiden Aunt or Grandparents under the same roof, other extended family members in the neighborhood. People did not have to pay someone to come watch the kids because the community was there to support each other.

 

[TheLittleLady]

There are childcare vouchers for low income families, but, that is the extent of it.

Some very gullible people it seems, believing everything “they heard”.

 

[Pup7]

The countries with those “social welfare” programs abort everyone who isn’t perfect.

South Korea is a great example of how this isn’t always the case.

Abortion is illegal in South Korea, and they have many state-supported orphanages. I volunteered with two on a regular basis while I lived there. South Korea mandates 30 days maternity leave, and I believe men can also apply for paternity leave.

Their system isn’t perfect, but abortion is illegal, and the state makes accommodation for the children that aren’t wanted by the parents.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

The countries with those “social welfare” programs abort everyone who isn’t perfect.

South Korea is a great example of how this isn’t always the case.

Abortion is illegal in South Korea, and they have many state-supported orphanages. I volunteered with two on a regular basis while I lived there. South Korea mandates 30 days maternity leave, and I believe men can also apply for paternity leave.

Their system isn’t perfect, but abortion is illegal, and the state makes accommodation for the children that aren’t wanted by the parents.

Sorry, you’re wrong. South Korea allows abortion for fetal impairments. In fact, it’s one of the few reasons they do allow abortion.

Homeschooling is also illegal, although that law is not enforced.

Whenever you give something, something else is taken. Nothing just works out perfectly.

South Korea is not without its own issues. The way single parents are treated is terrible and are under very strong encourament to be given up rather than be raised by a single parent.

 

[Pup7]

Sorry, you’re wrong. South Korea allows abortion for fetal impairments.

Actually, no, we were informed at the medical group that anyone wanting an abortion for any reason needs to seek it outside of South Korea, as they aren’t permitted within the country. I was told the same thing by the orphanage staff. I’ve got no reason to doubt either source, and it’s the only place outside of Saudi Arabia where I’ve ever been told on a professional level of anything of that nature.

South Korea also doesn’t allow withdrawal of life support even in the case of confirmed brain death, and I’m aware of that because of professional involvement in the case management of a military member while I was stationed there.

One thing that is permitted in South Korea is over the counter birth control pills, which is a different conversation entirely.

 

[alice24]

A few thoughts from th german perspective:
-I currently moved in a region with one of the highest abortion number in the whole country. At the same time, this region has the lowest rents and life costs in general, so, money isn´t the thing. The majorty of women who abort here (recently checked the stats because I was shocked of it) abort not because they were teens / had health issues/were raped/ etc, the majorty was between 25 and 35 if I remeber it right. They simply didn´t want a child. The “ethic” here told them over decades this was ok, so they do.
-beside maternity leave, which is in the lowest pay range not really a theme at all (contracts there are mostly limited on 6 months, so, you wil just not get the next contract when you are pregnant, perfectly legal), we have a certain amount of money the state pays for every child until it finishes the first education as a young adult. Also, a they pay for 12 months a parenting money, father and mother can decide how they part the months - 6 months each is possible, one month for spouse 1, 11 months for spouse 2 is also ok. This money makes for me at the moment the difference if I am able to plan a family or not, because I work in the bad circumstances with limited contract as shown above.
My result is, for me, any money to secure a family in the first months after birth, no matter how you may call it (if it´s just availible for every parents under a certain income) is prolife.
We would bear this alone, too, but being pro life is sometimes about making a decision more easy and family positive.