Why isn't the Catholic Church more "cooperative" with ecumenical efforts?

[wmscott]

Well, your question is directed to protestants. I’m not suggesting that we take anything away from Catholicism. Perfect unity would require that protestants drop the protest and re-join the church. I think the goal of ecumenism, however, should be to figure out how we can work together on the really big problems the world faces: denial of God, warped view of humanity, culture of death, worship of power, etc.

Also, I think your post might have mis-quoted the article slightly. I got the impression you felt that protestants viewed Catholic baptism as imperfect, based on the following?

The above expresses the Catholic viewpoint, how Catholics view protestant baptism. Pretty much lifted right out of the catechism:

I guess I missread it altogether, my bad

 

[Mort_Alz]

So I guess I would like to know what Truths that the Catholic Church teaches would you and any other Protestant want to be dismissed, tucked away, watered down, expunged, or abandoned in order for you or any other Protestant denomination to be unified. I am curious as to what these would be, would you aor anyone else like to list them here?

Perhaps “No salvation outside the Catholic Church” should at least be explained?

I can’t get a consistent answer from Catholics. It’s either, “Yes, sincere, practicing Protestants can go to heaven because their baptisms are valid.” Or it’s “There is literally no salvation unless you are Catholic.” And still others “Traditionally, there is no salvation outside the Catholic faith, but there are cases, EXTREMELY RARE where a Protestant may go to heaven.”

 

[SteveVH]

I see a lot of noble efforts for Christianity to unify itself again. On account of Jesus’ prayer that we would be unified. But, why is the Catholic Church so strict about ecumenical efforts, it seems the only REAL effort to be ecumenical was the Vatican council in the 1960’s, but even that didn’t seem like a real effort, just a changing of a few words to soften controversial issues to bring Protestants into the Catholic Church.

To be fair, if any tradition of Christianity has the right to take an I’m right, you’re wrong stance on ecumenism, it’s the Catholic Church simply because of apostolic succession and volume, but, then what about the Eastern Orthodox church? Don’t they have apostolic succession, too? Doesn’t even the Catholic Church recognize that? And what about the Great Schism? Wasn’t the primary dividing issue in that just a difference in the doctrine of the Trinity because the Eastern Orthodox church, (appealing to their consciences) disagreed with the spelled-out version of the Trinity regarding Christ and the Spirit? Which, was a later addition to the Nicene Creed anyway? So, because of such a small difference, they’re schizmatics and therefore not Christians? They’re not saved??

Not that the Eastern Orthodox Church isn’t guilty. In some ways, they seem more stiff and unyielding to ecumenism than the Catholic Church. Not accepting any baptisms but Orthodox ones. But, that’s slightly beside the point.

Plus, don’t Protestants have some very good points? I think any sane Catholic has to admit that a lot of good change came about in the counter reformation BECAUSE of Luther and the Reformation. I kind of understand the allure of Anglicanism now (though, of course it’s beginning was rather ignoble), it seems VERY ecumenical. Protestant, yet Catholic, and some of Christianity’s greatest advocates came from the Anglican community (C.S. Lewis anyone?) So, because they’re not Catholic, they’re not valid???

And there’s also the issue of a previously non-believing person coming to know Christ and trying to choose a local church to worship at. If that person attends mass at the town’s parish and finds it to be very hard to understand, unrelatable, and full of practitioners who are not so friendly and poorly reflect the person of Jesus the Son, and then attends a worship service at a Protestant congregation and finds the people there to be VERY friendly and reflective of how Jesus acted in the Bible and just serves as a better community of believers, can ANYONE blame that person for joining the Protestant communion instead?

These are real questions by the way, not objections. I would like to hear y’all’s thoughts.

The Catholic Church cannot and will not give up the truth handed down from the Apostles in an effort toward ecumenism. What truth should the Church give up or what should it accept in addition to its current doctrines in order to satisfy you? Ecumenism is not a higher good than teaching the truth to all the world. We will have ecumenism when our separated brethren recognize the truth contained within the Catholic Church, which is Christ’s presence on earth, and enter into her fully.

God bless.

 

[pnewton]

True seekers of God will avoid tolerant religions like the plague. Satan worshippers will seek out religions of tolerance.

I avoid those that go around labeling others as Satanic like the plague.

To the OP,

Please ignore the above poster. He is not speaking from a Catholic point of view, which was what you wanted. The problem with ecumenism is complex. We are often times dealing with contradictory doctrines. For example, the Eucharist can not both be the really Jesus and not really Jesus. The Holy Father either is the representative (vicar) of Jesus, or he is not, etc.

I think it is important to understand that the Catholic Church has engaged in many dialogues with other Christians on various topics in an attempt to gain a unity of understanding that may one day lead to full unity. This is always the desire of the Catholic Church. However, she can not sacrifice truth for expediency, neither should anyone else. This process will take as long as it takes.

As to your question on salvation outside of the Church. Realize first that this does not mean to exclude the possibility of salvation outside of the membership rolls. The Catholic Church has always recognized the validity of all Christian baptism, demonstrating that there exists a unity, though incomplete. For further information, I suggest you read sections 817-819 of the Catechism:

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art9p3.shtml

 

[wmscott]

Perhaps “No salvation outside the Catholic Church” should at least be explained?

I can’t get a consistent answer from Catholics. It’s either, “Yes, sincere, practicing Protestants can go to heaven because their baptisms are valid.” Or it’s “There is literally no salvation unless you are Catholic.” And still others “Traditionally, there is no salvation outside the Catholic faith, but there are cases, EXTREMELY RARE where a Protestant may go to heaven.”

The consistent answer is what the Catholic Church teaches!!!

The teaching of the Catholic Church, specifically CCC 818-819

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

So you may be outside the “outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church” you are still catholic, just separated and disobedient.

In the end, rely on what the Catholic Church teaches, not opinions.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

ecumenical effort is the prime indicator of satanic religion. The only thing that indicates a satanic religion with greater proof is division.

If the Catholic church is ecumenical in any way shape or form than it is devoid of the Holy Spirit.

The church of God is absolutely and completely intolerant of any and all other religions.

True seekers of God will avoid tolerant religions like the plague. Satan worshippers will seek out religions of tolerance.

Is this a commonly-held viewpoint among Catholics?

 

[SteveVH]

Is this a commonly-held viewpoint among Catholics?

No. Read some of the above posts. Your question has already been anwered.

 

[JRKH]

Is this a commonly-held viewpoint among Catholics?

No

 

[stormy99]

And there’s also the issue of a previously non-believing person coming to know Christ and trying to choose a local church to worship at. If that person attends mass at the town’s parish and finds it to be very hard to understand, unrelatable, and full of practitioners who are not so friendly and poorly reflect the person of Jesus the Son, and then attends a worship service at a Protestant congregation and finds the people there to be VERY friendly and reflective of how Jesus acted in the Bible and just serves as a better community of believers, can ANYONE blame that person for joining the Protestant communion instead?

**Mass is not a social gathering as is Sunday worship in other churches…Catholics come to Mass to listen to the readings and receive the Eucharist…their attendance is not predicated on everyone going out of their way to be friendly…they should be of course.

You do need a certain amount of knowledge to follow a Catholic Mass while most Protestant Churches are easy in that respect…if they are thinking of converting to Catholicism, RCIA classes are essential…they need to know exactly what they are being asked to believe in…no guessing…they must know and if they can’t accept it…well then they need to keep looking…

As a convert, I learned the Mass by going each Sunday with my class and then discussing the readings until my confirmation. You can’t just,hey I want to be Catholic, but you can do that for other religions, no problem…

stormy

**

 

[JonNC]

Is this a commonly-held viewpoint among Catholics?

Not by my experience. My experience with agent grey, however, is he/she posts these kinds of remarks, but rarely returns to dialogue, or at least defend them.

Jon

 

[PJM]

=Mort Alz;7486798]I see a lot of noble efforts for Christianity to unify itself again. On account of Jesus’ prayer that we would be unified. But, why is the Catholic Church so strict about ecumenical efforts, it seems the only REAL effort to be ecumenical was the Vatican council in the 1960’s, but even that didn’t seem like a real effort, just a changing of a few words to soften controversial issues to bring Protestants into the Catholic Church.

To be fair, if any tradition of Christianity has the right to take an I’m right, you’re wrong stance on ecumenism, it’s the Catholic Church simply because of apostolic succession and volume, but, then what about the Eastern Orthodox church? Don’t they have apostolic succession, too? Doesn’t even the Catholic Church recognize that? And what about the Great Schism? Wasn’t the primary dividing issue in that just a difference in the doctrine of the Trinity because the Eastern Orthodox church, (appealing to their consciences) disagreed with the spelled-out version of the Trinity regarding Christ and the Spirit? Which, was a later addition to the Nicene Creed anyway? So, because of such a small difference, they’re schizmatics and therefore not Christians? They’re not saved??

Not that the Eastern Orthodox Church isn’t guilty. In some ways, they seem more stiff and unyielding to ecumenism than the Catholic Church. Not accepting any baptisms but Orthodox ones. But, that’s slightly beside the point.

Plus, don’t Protestants have some very good points? I think any sane Catholic has to admit that a lot of good change came about in the counter reformation BECAUSE of Luther and the Reformation. I kind of understand the allure of Anglicanism now (though, of course it’s beginning was rather ignoble), it seems VERY ecumenical. Protestant, yet Catholic, and some of Christianity’s greatest advocates came from the Anglican community (C.S. Lewis anyone?) So, because they’re not Catholic, they’re not valid???

And there’s also the issue of a previously non-believing person coming to know Christ and trying to choose a local church to worship at. If that person attends mass at the town’s parish and finds it to be very hard to understand, unrelatable, and full of practitioners who are not so friendly and poorly reflect the person of Jesus the Son, and then attends a worship service at a Protestant congregation and finds the people there to be VERY friendly and reflective of how Jesus acted in the Bible and just serves as a better community of believers, can ANYONE blame that person for joining the Protestant communion instead?

These are real questions by the way, not objections. I would like to hear y’all’s thoughts.

My dear friend in Christ;

The Roman Curia [the major departments of the vatican] has a department and staf thaT has unification as there ONLY goal. Talks, studies, plans and efforts go on every day towards this goal.

That said; ALL Salvation MUST [and does] flow through the Catholic Church. WHY?

Because that is the Divine Will and what God himself choose.

“Blame” is not the term I would use: True Faith, and it’s companions Wisdom, Knowledge, and Understanding are ALL DIRECT Gifts from God, who grants it as He God sees fit to do.

Isaah 5:8-9; explaines that God’s way’s ARE NOT our ways.

The NT has in EXCESS of 100 references to ONLY One Church… as expresed here:

Eph. 4: 4 -8“There is one body Only One Church] and one Spirit, Only One set of beliefs] just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, [Only One God] ONLY one faith, Only One set of doctrine and dogma] one baptism, By water in the Trinity] one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. "

One can Provide a GREAT many more proofs; but if one chooses NOT to accept this; what then is the ue of it?

God Bless,
Pat

 

[Mort_Alz]

And there’s also the issue of a previously non-believing person coming to know Christ and trying to choose a local church to worship at. If that person attends mass at the town’s parish and finds it to be very hard to understand, unrelatable, and full of practitioners who are not so friendly and poorly reflect the person of Jesus the Son, and then attends a worship service at a Protestant congregation and finds the people there to be VERY friendly and reflective of how Jesus acted in the Bible and just serves as a better community of believers, can ANYONE blame that person for joining the Protestant communion instead?

**Mass is not a social gathering as is Sunday worship in other churches…Catholics come to Mass to listen to the readings and receive the Eucharist…their attendance is not predicated on everyone going out of their way to be friendly…they should be of course.

You do need a certain amount of knowledge to follow a Catholic Mass while most Protestant Churches are easy in that respect…if they are thinking of converting to Catholicism, RCIA classes are essential…they need to know exactly what they are being asked to believe in…no guessing…they must know and if they can’t accept it…well then they need to keep looking…

As a convert, I learned the Mass by going each Sunday with my class and then discussing the readings until my confirmation. You can’t just,hey I want to be Catholic, but you can do that for other religions, no problem…

stormy

**

Yes, I quite agree that the Truth is what’s important. Perhaps I didn’t set my question in proper context. I would agree that it is NOT a social gathering, but one gets the feeling, from Sacred Scripture, that the local churches were supoosed to be a gathering of people of the common faith and they were to share with each other and uplift and encourage each other, so if a person finds something closer to that in a Protestant congregation than in a Catholic parish, where would you expect them to go?

 

[Mort_Alz]

My dear friend in Christ;

The Roman Curia [the major departments of the vatican] has a department and staf thaT has unification as there ONLY goal. Talks, studies, plans and efforts go on every day towards this goal.

That said; ALL Salvation MUST [and does] flow through the Catholic Church. WHY?

Because that is the Divine Will and what God himself choose.

“Blame” is not the term I would use: True Faith, and it’s companions Wisdom, Knowledge, and Understanding are ALL DIRECT Gifts from God, who grants it as He God sees fit to do.

Isaah 5:8-9; explaines that God’s way’s ARE NOT our ways.

The NT has in EXCESS of 100 references to ONLY One Church… as expresed here:

Eph. 4: 4 -8“There is one body Only One Church] and one Spirit, Only One set of beliefs] just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, [Only One God] ONLY one faith, Only One set of doctrine and dogma] one baptism, By water in the Trinity] one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. "

One can Provide a GREAT many more proofs; but if one chooses NOT to accept this; what then is the ue of it?

God Bless,
Pat

Yes, I do acknowledge that Jesus surely inteded there be one Church. Particularly on account of his Prayer to His Father that John gives before His Passion. 'Matter of fact, I wrote an essay about it

…and, is why I joined this forum in the first place. I am studying Catholicism, with an open heart for conversion if I hear God’s voice in it.

Please understand these are not objections, only honest questions that I am asking before attending RCIA classes (see, I’m 18 and still living with my Protestant parents and will go off to college this fall when I plan to attend my first Mass and carry on face-to-face dialogue with the Catholics I may find there)

 

[Reuben_J]

Yes, I quite agree that the Truth is what’s important. Perhaps I didn’t set my question in proper context. I would agree that it is NOT a social gathering, but one gets the feeling, from Sacred Scripture, that the local churches were supoosed to be a gathering of people of the common faith and they were to share with each other and uplift and encourage each other, so if a person finds something closer to that in a Protestant congregation than in a Catholic parish, where would you expect them to go?

I think you are confusing about what the church and the mass are. Being a Protestant perhaps that is understandable especially if you do not have the mass.

The mass is a worship and it can take place in a church.

However, there are many activities that can take place in a church and the mass is certainly one of them. If a parishioner comes to the church with the intention of participating in a mass, he/she will surely expect to be in a mass and what it is supposed to be.

The church however can also has social gatherings, prayer meetings, religious seminars or fellowships within the main chapel or the adjoining spaces within the church as the case maybe.

 

[JRKH]

Yes, I quite agree that the Truth is what’s important. Perhaps I didn’t set my question in proper context. I would agree that it is NOT a social gathering, but one gets the feeling, from Sacred Scripture, that the local churches were supoosed to be a gathering of people of the common faith and they were to share with each other and uplift and encourage each other, so if a person finds something closer to that in a Protestant congregation than in a Catholic parish, where would you expect them to go?

The local communities ARE supposed to do the things yo mention, but not just on Sunday morning…As Rueben points out there care many activities that go on at chuch that are supportive and uplifitng to the community besides mass.

That said, I do agree that as Catholics we should try to be as inviting as possible to others. By the same token we hope “newbies” will introduce themselves…Many parishes have welcoming committees etc.

Peace
James

 

[rinnie]

Goodness, Mort.
It is the Catholic Church, begining at Vatican II, that really got us talking with each other.

Here’s a couple of links.

On the USCCB website, click on ecumenical relations on the left toolbar.
usccb.org/seia/koinonia.shtml

From the Vatican website:
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/index.htm

And this webstie.
prounione.urbe.it/dia-int/e_dialogues.html

Jon

Hi Jon, I think that if People can take the time to read what you have posted they can learn alot.

And not just other faiths either, I think our own Church members need to review it also. After all, what can it hurt. We all need to learn what a great Grace that was given to us by God with our Pope.

Thank- You Jon for all you do here! Your Love for God and your Love for your fellow Brothers and Sisters always show in your responses.

 

[rinnie]

The local communities ARE supposed to do the things yo mention, but not just on Sunday morning…As Rueben points out there care many activities that go on at chuch that are supportive and uplifitng to the community besides mass.

That said, I do agree that as Catholics we should try to be as inviting as possible to others. By the same token we hope “newbies” will introduce themselves…Many parishes have welcoming committees etc.

Peace
James

Yes, I know with our Church we are being called to do more in the Church then ever before. We are learning that although we may not all be called to be Priests, etc. We are all called to be Disciples of Christ.

And as pointed out it is alot more then attending Mass on Sunday’s. We are learning that we are all called to do our share in building up of our Church’s and communities.

I guess we got off too easy for too long and now its payback time

 

[PJM]

=Mort Alz;7516555]Perhaps “No salvation outside the Catholic Church” should at least be explained?

I can’t get a consistent answer from Catholics. It’s either, “Yes, sincere, practicing Protestants can go to heaven because their baptisms are valid.” Or it’s “There is literally no salvation unless you are Catholic.” And still others “Traditionally, there is no salvation outside the Catholic faith, but there are cases, EXTREMELY RARE where a Protestant may go to heaven.”

I’ll give it a try

Using the following as a foundation:

1. Eph. 2:19-20 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, singular] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, ***Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, *** in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. “
2. **Eph. 4: 4 -8“**There is one body [Only One Church] and one Spirit, [Only One set of beliefs] just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, Only One God] ONLY one faith, Only One set of doctrine and dogma] one baptism, By water in the Trinity] one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift"
3. Because the CC gave the world the Bible; thus She is the "Bible Church par excellence
4. Theologian; Philosopher; Pope Benedict XVI Teaches “there cannot be your truth and my truth, or there would be no truth.” Logic affirms BUT a single truth for every issue.
5. Because Jesus founded ONLY One Church, One Faith and One New Covenant; and complied the OT, wrote the entire NT and set the 73 Book Canon of the Bible [the primary guide to everyone’s POSSIBLE salvation; how this Salvation takes place in the purview of the CC, guided by the very Presence of Jesus himself [John 17: 15-19], and the Holy Spirit [John 14:16-17].
6. Widely misunderstood; Matt. 16:15-19 where God transfers His Authority of the Church’s unlimited Governance to Peter, and through necessary succession; to his successors, made necessary by the God given mandates of [Matt. 28:19-20] and by the fact that Christ certainly did not found His One Church with an expatiations that it would die a natural death, with the demise of the Apostles. [Matt. 16:19] verifies this point.

“Binding and Loosing” were legal terms; clearly understood at the time they were spoken by those Jesus spoke to. As many cities were fortified with wall’s and GATES for there protection; each such city [not under Roman rule] had it’s own king; who in turn appointed a “Prime-Minister” to handle ALL day to day governance and make al decisions needed to do so.

This “PM” answered ONLY to thee King. This is the model Christ was using in granting Peter unlimited authority for daily supervision, and complete governance of His One Church, with Jesus as KING and Peter as the “PM.”

1. From this foundation as HEAD of the only Church actually Founded by God himself; it is reasonable that ALL SALVATION MUST; AND IN FACT, DOES FLOW THROUGH HER.
2. This does not mean that everyone has to be a member of the CC. However everyone who has been exposed to Her Truth, risk unnecessarily, there own salvation. This applies especially to [but not only too] ALL FALLEN AWAY CATHOLICS. [SEE Heb.6:4-10].
3. By virtue of a “Common Baptism” {water in the name of the Trinity}, and by belief in the One God; THREE Divine persons; those outside the CC but being Baptized and believing in God, MAY [NOT WILL] , MAY possibly attain salvation which FLOWS naturally through the means that God set up for our personal salvation. His Catholic Church.
4. Not being a practicing member of the CC makes salvation outside her; “possible” BUT EXTREMETLY DIFICULT. some of the positions held by various Protestants work against them attaining salvation. Such as “OSAS,” and those who freely pick and choose what they will accept and believe from thee Bible, when the ENTIRE Bible is the Guide to one’s salvation; do so at very GREAT risk to there possible salvation. The same is true of holding to *** Sola Scriptura an “*** Faith Alone****.” ** And The issue of forgiveness of sin [1 Jn. 1: 8-10’ 1 Jn. 5: 16-17; and John 20: 15-19] are clear and specific. Each of these errant beliefs work to exasperate one’s possible salvation.

The CC holds [and therefore, God Himself] that those outside her and unknowing of Her truths, MIGHT through an act of “PERFECT CONTRITION” be forgiven there sins? But how does one know if they have indeed accomplished this, if not Obeying God’s Will on this critical matter?

God Bless, hope you find this helpful?
Pat

 

[Dave_Noonan]

Thanks–just curious.