Why isn't the Church a democratic institution

[estesbob]

Being against abortion is not a barometer of “Catholic values”.

As stated, Mohammedans are against abortion as well. An atheist can be against abortion. Many Protestants are against abortion.

“Catholic values” are that the Church be the only guide in moral issues. Abortion is wrong not because the Koran, the government, or the Bible says so, but because the CATHOLIC CHURCH says so! Gay “marriage” is wrong because the Catholic Church says it’s wrong! You may agree with why the Catholic Church is against these things, but to concur is not a “Catholic value”. The Catholic value is to strive to make the world a better place through Jesus and His Church, not rational or naturalist philosophies.

If GW Bush held a SINGLE “Catholic value”, he would be a Catholic.

He doesn’t, so he’s not.

Is the ressurectin of Christ a Catholic value? Bush believe in that. How about the Divinity of Christ? bush beleives in that. it seems you have a very,very narrow view of what catholic values are.

 

[mchium]

The Catholic Church is not a democratic institution because Jesus Christ did not establish His Church to BE one. He chose, instead, a heirarchical institution with Himself as the leader/head.

This makes sense for lots of reasons and is incredibly wise, but that’s not what you asked about - you asked ‘why’. So, ‘why’ is because Jesus didn’t want a democratic instiution to be His mystical body and to be the vehicle thorugh which He would make salvation available to mankind.

If you don’t like it or agree, you’ll have to take it up with Him. (but there’s virtually no chance you’ll prevail or change His mind)

 

[KofC660]

Is the ressurectin of Christ a Catholic value? Bush believe in that. How about the Divinity of Christ? bush beleives in that. it seems you have a very,very narrow view of what catholic values are.

First of all, we have no real way of knowing if Bush believes in either the Resurrection or the Trinity.

Second of all, Martin Luther, heretic par excellent, also believed in those things, and even more! That doesn’t make Martin Luther a Catholic.

Yes, the definition of Catholic values is very very narrow.

Mark 7:14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!

Holding Catholic values are NOT the same thing as being a Methodist, or “born again”, or Lutheran, or even Anglican! Sure, those heresies have something in common with the Faith, some are even quite close to the Faith, but none ARE the Faith! The ONLY “Catholic value” is to submit to the Authority of the Church. Anything else is anti-Catholic. You may concur with every moral issue of the Church, but if you do not submit to the Authority of the Church, you are against it.

 

[Sir_Knight]

No one is saying that Bush is a Catholic but that he holds to some Catholic values and that Catholic values WERE “voted” in when he got re-elected.

 

[KofC660]

No one is saying that Bush is a Catholic but that he holds to some Catholic values and that Catholic values WERE “voted” in when he got re-elected.

No, some nominal stance against abortion and other issues were voted in.

NOT “Catholic values”. Does GW Bush take guidance from the Catholic Church?

If not, then “Catholic values” were not voted in.

 

[mary_bobo]

Sure you can “vote” in Catholic values]. Just look at the 2004 presidential election. More Catholic values were voted in than non-Catholic values.

Hey, guys. Isn’t this just an argument using semantics? Maybe the values of which you speak could be called values that most Catholics hold to be in keeping with Church teaching. In that way they can be called “Catholic values”. I don’t think that means that others may not or can not have the same value system.

 

[kentuckyliz]

I think we should elect bishops the Bible way: casting lots.

 

[Sabda]

Really?
The Pope is elected by a vote. Does that mean that the teachings of the church are also subject to a vote? No. Our Church’s teachings are divinely inspired. It is not created by the Pope or the Bishops. So why would it make any difference whether the Bishops were elected or appointed?

And who elects the Bishops and Cardinals? The Pope! We, the people, don’t get to vote on that issue.

The Trinity is a teaching that is considered divinely inspired. There are some Protestant churchs that have decided to change their teaching on that. Homesexuality is another issue that has been changed in some churchs, contraceptive was another issue that was changed. If you put things to a democratic vote than it all comes up for grabs. Like I said I think there is a reason Christ did not set Christianity up in the form of a democracy.

 

[zackonattack]

And who elects the Bishops and Cardinals? The Pope! We, the people, don’t get to vote on that issue.

The Trinity is a teaching that is considered divinely inspired. There are some Protestant churchs that have decided to change their teaching on that. Homesexuality is another issue that has been changed in some churchs, contraceptive was another issue that was changed. If you put things to a democratic vote than it all comes up for grabs. Like I said I think there is a reason Christ did not set Christianity up in the form of a democracy.

Of course you don’t get to vote on the Pope, or anything else connected with Divine Truth. Thank God the church is not a “democracy.” Look what democracy has gotten us. Let’s see: Homosexuals should be allowed to marry, the bible is hate speech, can’t say Merry Christmas, instead of you have to say Happy Holiday, prayer or the name Jesus can’t be mentioned in the taxpayer public schools, the boy scouts are banned from military bases because they will not accept homosexuals to be around little boys, and on and on. I can just imagine what the church would look like if the uninformed could vote for what they want. What you would have is what you are getting in these far-out liberal parishes. God, what a horrible thought. Let the masses vote as to what is Divine Truth. God help us. I love the quote from Pope Benedict XVI: “TRUTH is not determined by a majority vote.” Amen, and Amen to that.

 

[kentuckyliz]

Democratically elected bishops? *Libera me nos a malo!

*Caucuses. Planks. Parties. Fundraising events. Primaries. Nominations. Campaigning. Elections boards. Election finance oversight. Vote buying. Vote hauling. Influence peddling. Lobbyists! Petition drives.

Campaigning: making promises to the people to give them what they want. (The disciplinary and moral issues have already been mentioned, use your imagination.)

Influence peddling: actually delivering the goods for the wealthy influential ones in your diocese.

Hanging chads! Stolen voting machines found in the X party headquarters on election night! Ballot stuffing! Ballot burning!

Media investigations. Waiting on the Vatican to issue a decision to handle the decision. Woe-cryers proclaiming the death of the Church.

Ah well, we only have to go through it every few decades. After all, the term of office is until age 75 or until incardinated and whisked away.

Deliver me from the stink of politics in the church! It’s bad enough without an election structure.

Don’t kid yourself that we’ll just elect bishops, then run things the same otherwise. It won’t stay that way for five minutes.

Why adopt the structure of the ECUSA? It already exists and has shown its fruits. We don’t even have to speculate.

Politics is the art of the possible; exercised in the spirit of prudence, in the kingdom of this world, which is passing away and imperfect; good people can disagree on prudential matters of particular political and economic systems and political solutions.

The Kingdom of God is nothing like the kingdom of this world, and THANK GOD. Perhaps He knew what He was doing. Ya think?

The wise man built his house on a rock and the storms have not shaken it.

Don’t push for moving it onto shifting sands.

 

[kentuckyliz]

OK, here’s another Bible study assignment for you.

Mosey through the OT and find out that Israel clamored to be just like the other nations. Was this a good thing or a bad thing?

Did God warn them of the price of that action? (Through his spokesperson.)

Did He let them have their way?

How many generations did the nation last whole and entire?

How long did it last at all?

What was the end result?

Is this what you want for the Church?

 

[Sabda]

OK, here’s another Bible study assignment for you.

Mosey through the OT and find out that Israel clamored to be just like the other nations. Was this a good thing or a bad thing?

Did God warn them of the price of that action? (Through his spokesperson.)

Did He let them have their way?

How many generations did the nation last whole and entire?

How long did it last at all?

What was the end result?

Is this what you want for the Church?

EXCELLENT point! I have enough headaches with deciding where to cast my vote in our current system. I do not need to add the Church to my headaches as well!!! Thanks, but no thanks.

 

[RedSoxFan]

If American history has taught us anything, it is that the preferable form of government is a democracy. Monarchy is less preferable because of the potential for corruption and abuse, and the fallacy of the inequality between the monarch and the subjects.
Then why is our church not a democracy? Wouldn’t it be preferable for the Church to be administered by the best form of government?
After all, the Holy Spirit would ensure that the Church thrives and endures regardless of its form of governance, would it not? Would the Holy Spirit cease to assist our Holy Father and our Bishops merely because they were elected rather than appointed? Isn’t history replete of examples of excesses and abuses that parallel the excesses and abuses of monarchies?
Everything in our history as Americans tells us that democracy is the only way to go.

Ok, while democracy is the best form of government, it would not be the best choice for the Roman Catholic Church. Some things should not be left to a vote. Religion is one of them.

 

[Teflon93]

Here’s a shout out to old school schismatics:

If the Church were a Democratic institution, would God have one vote or three?

 

[Sir_Knight]

No, some nominal stance against abortion and other issues were voted in.

And those are Catholic values.

NOT “Catholic values”.

Being anti-abortion IS a Catholic value and that is what Bush supports. Why do you keep saying that he does not support Catholic values?

I’m not making the claim that he supports ALL Catholic values but he DOES support Catholic values – abortion, stem cell research, etc.; being SOME of them.

Does GW Bush take guidance from the Catholic Church?

Where ever he gets it from, he is supporting a Catholic belief – a Catholic value.

If not, then “Catholic values” were not voted in.

Is anti-abortion a Catholic position or not? Church teaching says that it is. Is our president supportive of that position? Public record says that he is. Therefore, our president, who was VOTED into office, is supportive of that Catholic position … of that Catholic value. So, SOME Catholic values WERE voted in.

 

[estesbob]

Why do you keep saying that he does not support Catholic values?

.

Because he doesnt like Bush. As we have seen in the these forums many claim that Bush does not support Catholic Values as a way, strangely enough, to rationalize voring for pro-abortion canidates.

 

[GIMJ]

Is the idea that John Kerry supports Catholic values more than George W. Bush does, since John Kerry is the Catholic and Bush is the Methodist? ***

Maybe we could say that Bush supports the Catholic values of being pro-life while Kerry supports the Catholic values (I assume) of papal authority and apostolic succession? And that they both support the Catholic values of faith in Jesus, Ressurection, working toward social justice (in varying ways and degrees)?

I think it’s difficult to find a person who you can say supports “Catholic values” without any qualifiers. Even within the Church, there are many people in rebellion with regard to Church authority and teaching, and many more that are simply ignorant.

I think that’s why it’s a good thing that we no longer elect our bishops, but have the Pope appoint them.

Liberal democracy has many good fruits: technology, “hard” knowledge, literacy, longevity, peace; UNFORTUNATELY, it has many bad fruits as well: the democratic part has allowed for illiberal practices of slavery, abortion, euthanasia, wealth redistrubtion, and also evil policies that do not respect Man’s dignity like oppressive welfare systems, promotion of sexual promiscuity, scorn of religion, “tolerance.”*

 

[SPH1]

If American history has taught us anything, it is that the preferable form of government is a democracy. Monarchy is less preferable because of the potential for corruption and abuse, and the fallacy of the inequality between the monarch and the subjects.
Then why is our church not a democracy? Wouldn’t it be preferable for the Church to be administered by the best form of government?
After all, the Holy Spirit would ensure that the Church thrives and endures regardless of its form of governance, would it not? Would the Holy Spirit cease to assist our Holy Father and our Bishops merely because they were elected rather than appointed? Isn’t history replete of examples of excesses and abuses that parallel the excesses and abuses of monarchies?
Everything in our history as Americans tells us that democracy is the only way to go.

But would electing Bishops look like electing politicians? Campaigns, promises, platforms, parties?

 

[Bennie_P]

So, you would prefer that America was a monarchy? I don’t know of any American who would give up their freedom to a monarch.

It all depends how you define “Freedom”, myself I’m a “papist”, I listen to Rome, before I look to Washington.

Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought. Pope John Paul II

" Yes, Christ is with us, the Kingdom of God is coming.” PB XVI

and it ain’t a Democracy, praise God!- BennieP

 

[KofC660]

Having “Catholic values” is so much more than simply being against abortion, or being against gay marrige, or supporting prayer in school, etc.

First and foremost, “Catholic values” are informed by the theology of the Church, as opposed to, say, the Enlightenment. For example, if someone supports “freedom of speech” or “seperation of Church and State” and they are against abortion, they do NOT have “Catholic values”, as “freedom of speech” or “seperation of Church and State” are NOT a “Catholic values”, despite their stance on abortion.

Americans are primarily formed by their acceptance of Enlightenment values, not Catholic values, and this goes for those Americans that are Catholic.