Why isn't there a fool proof NFP?

[Burt_Macklin]

Well with my meter idea, that could be patented and sold. And the ABC companies don’t get their customers for life, just about 25 years or so (remember fertility only lasts from puberty to menopause).

Only about 2-3% of US women trying to avoid pregnancy use any method of NFP, so you are talking about targeting a very small demographic. You already have a product that 98% of the women who use birth control don’t mind using. Why would you take the risk in developing a product that will likely fail? There is very little money to invest in making NFP better because there is very little money to be made off of it. Most of the doctors who devote themselves to bettering NFP are not doing do for the money.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Well with my meter idea, that could be patented and sold. And the ABC companies don’t get their customers for life, just about 25 years or so (remember fertility only lasts from puberty to menopause).

Someone or some company could patent and produce a product like that. It would be a good thing! As you are an engineer, are you interested in developing something like that?

 

[gardenswithkids]

Only about 2-3% of US women trying to avoid pregnancy use any method of NFP, so you are talking about targeting a very small demographic. You already have a product that 98% of the women who use birth control don’t mind using. Why would you take the risk in developing a product that will likely fail? There is very little money to invest in making NFP better because there is very little money to be made off of it. Most of the doctors who devote themselves to bettering NFP are not doing do for the money.

Did you read that paragraph I quoted earlier from HV? The Church encourages such things. And if more options were available that women and men believed to be reliable, perhaps more might try NFP. Some non-Catholic women shun the pill and other artificial contraceptives to use NFP because of their health concerns about ABC. There could be a market.

 

[Burt_Macklin]

Did you read that paragraph I quoted earlier from HV? The Church encourages such things. And if more options were available that women and men believed to be reliable, perhaps more might try NFP. Some non-Catholic women shun the pill and other artificial contraceptives to use NFP because of their health concerns about ABC. There could be a market.

I don’t really see any reason to improve NFP as an investment. The 2% that already use NFP will do so no matter how difficult it is. It is all their religion allows. The 98% that use another method will not switch to NFP unless it requires almost zero abstinence. It is an impossibly high standard.

Also, any improvement in an NFP method will be utilized by the competition who didn’t put any investment in R&D. I don’t believe you can patent a naturally occurring biological process.

 

[Ecce_Homo]

Why isn’t there a fool proof NFP?

Because no matter how hard a married couple tries to have children, there isn’t a 100% probability that conception will occur, even when the probability of fertility is high.

No, I’m not being sarcastic. It’s true that most (99.9%) conversations about NFP speak of a desire to avoid or postpone conception, but wouldn’t NFP make a lot of sense as a means to determine the best opportunity for conception rather than the worst?

Unfortunately, in much the same way that many folks view annulments as “Catholic divorce” (which they aren’t), NFP is often looked upon as “Catholic birth control”. It isn’t birth control. (Incidentally birth control is an oxymoron because it involves neither birth nor control, but I digress…)

Marriage is a vocation that has for its first end the procreation and education of children. That vocation is also the married couple’s path to holiness. Married life isn’t easy. It wouldn’t be a path to holiness if it were easy. Having children can be a great sacrifice, but isn’t sacrifice at the heart of the virtue of religion?

I intend this comment as encouragement. In being open to children, a man and his wife give glory to God.

 

[gardenswithkids]

I don’t really see any reason to improve NFP as an investment. The 2% that already use NFP will do so no matter how difficult it is. It is all their religion allows. The 98% that use another method will not switch to NFP unless it requires almost zero abstinence. It is an impossibly high standard.

Also, any improvement in an NFP method will be utilized by the competition who didn’t put any investment in R&D. I don’t believe you can patent a naturally occurring biological process.

If you don’t see it as an investment, then you shouldn’t invest in it.

But… I think you underestimate 98% of the population. If it were easier more would use it. I think the op was talking about a device or test strip or something to help with more accurately identifying a woman’s fertile times. Some couples find that they don’t trust their observations and it can become difficult under various circumstances.

Fertility identification products already sell for $$$ for those trying conceive a child. A large portion of the population now finds they struggle with infertility, so just as NFP can be used to help conceive, so an inexpensive monitor might find a market from persons struggling with infertility. Since so many of the infertility treatments like artificial insemination and IVF also violate Church moral teachings (and the dignity of humans), allowing couples to turn to some simple and reliable device to identify their fertile window could really help them to conceive a child without violating the moral laws.

I didn’t like the term “fool proof” in the thread title, because it implies pregnancy and babies are “mistakes” made by “fools”, but now that I see more of what the op is asking, I very much like the concept of a way to help make NFP more user friendly. User friendly products often find at least a niche market. I realize that the op isn’t Catholic, but if anyone Catholic or not wanted to work on the R&D for such a product, that would be in keeping with Humanae Vitae paragraph 24 where the Church implored scientists for help.

 

[7armyrugrats]

There are at least three monitors that I know on the market already. There is the Lady Comp/Baby Comp, Clear Blue Easy, and OvaCue. The only one I have experience with is the OvaCue, but it works and is easy to use. With the OvaCue, the 5-7 most fertile days are identified. If you are trying to achieve pregnancy, utilize those days. If you are trying to avoid, abstain on those days. It even has a vaginal probe that confirms that ovulation actually occurred and not just a hormonal surge for whatever reason, but I never used that so I don’t know for sure if it is accurate. You can buy just the oral probe or pay extra for the vaginal probe. We didn’t care enough to shell out the extra for the reassurance. I’ve heard good reports about the other two monitors but I never used them personally.

What can not be overlooked is that NFP failures quite often occur because people decide to have sex even though they know they are risking it. Often couples will down play the risk to themselves and then use the, “See, NFP doesn’t work for us,” line after they find out they are pregnant. It is impossible to improve NFP because what is wrong with it is human behavior, not a design flaw.

 

[SusanneT]

There is. It’s called abstinence. When people try to justify the use of ABC, they have all the reasons in the world why NFP won’t work for them but this does not explain why they think they are entitled to sex whenever they want it.

What you are asking is why isn’t there a way to make the world according to our own will and not Gods. Why isn’t there a way to safely and accurately allow me to achieve my own desires. That is not a Christian thought. Christ didn’t say, go and have the sex you want to have. He said give up your life. He said pick up your cross. It’s hard. But that does not mean we are entitled to change the law of creation. Love gives life. That’s it. We can work with the cycles he gave us but any time you have sex, ABC or not, life is a possibility unless you have no ovaries/uterus.

But people want sex without consequences. They want love without responsibility. It’s not possible.

I hope you’re being banned isn’t connected with pointing out this rather obvious but inconvenient fact ?

 

[UnCatholicBride]

Well with my meter idea, that could be patented and sold. And the ABC companies don’t get their customers for life, just about 25 years or so (remember fertility only lasts from puberty to menopause).

Do a search for the OvWatch. I haven’t purchased one (as I don’t have a regular cycle) but I have friends who have them and have successfully used them without CM/CP observation or temping both to avoid and to achieve.

It’s expensive (at $140 for the starter kit) and then an additional $40/month but for those who cannot commit themselves to charting it’s a decent alternative

 

[sailor28]

You make a good point that unplanned pregnancies in the face of mental or physical illness or poverty can cause enormous stress for a marriage. That type of stress that can influence a couple’s ability to care for their children and nuture their marriage. Not to mention their own mental, physical and spiritual health. Then when you have a couple living under extreme circumstances for years and tell them to be celibate it can place burdens on them that are too much to bear. The unitive aspects of sex are very healing and important to married life. Church teaching does place disproportionate amounts of burdens on the poor, and those with severe mentally or physically illnesses.

We now know how widespread the unreliability and usability of NFP is for many couples.
It is my opinion that that church should be more aggressive in researching NFP and working to help couples narrow down the 6 days per month they actually are fertile. There should be an office at the Vatican for this. One that has a woman on staff who understands the ins and outs of NFP and can identify with reasons couples may choose not use NFP. That way the issues at the heart of the matter can be addressed. Because they are not the typical reasons brought up but those who advocate for NFP (ie "People just want the easy way out and have no self control)

The Church should make NFP instruction FREE to anyone who wants it. All the local Catholic hospitals could offer it. This would have been a good counter to the HHS mandate re: free birth control and a productive way to spread what the church teaches. The Church should consider why 90% of its members dissent from the teaching. Is it really because they all don’t want to embrace suffering and sacrifice?

Science has progressed in the last 20 years. You can use a fertility monitor and you can also by LH test strips for very little on ebay. This would technically give you a guaranteed 10 days per month post ovulation. But this would only be if you had regular cycles.

The thing is as time goes on and the 6 days per month are more clearly identified you start to take away the talking points about NFP promoting sacrifice. It is confusing because on one side of the argument they say couples who use NFP have more sex and then on the other side they say couples are sacrificing more. It all depends on who is doing the promoting and which view they take. Science and research are always expanding and their will come a day when detecting fertility is much much easier. Although I am not sure who is doing the research? It seems to me the church should be the leader in this!

 

[gardenswithkids]

…
The Church should make NFP instruction FREE to anyone who wants it. All the local Catholic hospitals could offer it. This would have been a good counter to the HHS mandate re: free birth control and a productive way to spread what the church teaches. The Church should consider why 90% of its members dissent from the teaching. Is it really because they all don’t want to embrace suffering and sacrifice?

Science has progressed in the last 20 years. You can use a fertility monitor and you can also by LH test strips…Science and research are always expanding and their will come a day when detecting fertility is much much easier. Although I am not sure who is doing the research? It seems to me the church should be the leader in this!

I like the idea of the Church offering free NFP classes through Catholic hospitals to counter the HHS mandate. I would like to see the leaders of the Church taking a greater lead on this issue. The Church did ask for help from scientists and doctors in HV, but it would be nice to see a more organized effort to help promote Catholic teachings through Catholic organizations.

 

[a_cermak]

We now know how widespread the unreliability and usability of NFP is for many couples.
It is my opinion that that church should be more aggressive in researching NFP and working to help couples narrow down the 6 days per month they actually are fertile. There should be an office at the Vatican for this. One that has a woman on staff who understands the ins and outs of NFP and can identify with reasons couples may choose not use NFP. That way the issues at the heart of the matter can be addressed. Because they are not the typical reasons brought up but those who advocate for NFP (ie "People just want the easy way out and have no self control)

Absolutely. What is the Pontifical Academy of Sciences for if not at least researching this issue?

The Church should make NFP instruction FREE to anyone who wants it. All the local Catholic hospitals could offer it. This would have been a good counter to the HHS mandate re: free birth control and a productive way to spread what the church teaches. The Church should consider why 90% of its members dissent from the teaching. Is it really because they all don’t want to embrace suffering and sacrifice?

Yes! I see no reason that anyone actually interested in abiding by Church teaching should have to pay for instruction on how to abide by Church teaching. And Catholic Medical Schools should be leading the charge here as well; in both research into better ways to p(name removed by moderator)oint days for all women and in educating people on how to use the new methods.

 

[pensmama87]

Absolutely. What is the Pontifical Academy of Sciences for if not at least researching this issue?

Yes! I see no reason that anyone actually interested in abiding by Church teaching should have to pay for instruction on how to abide by Church teaching. And Catholic Medical Schools should be leading the charge here as well; in both research into better ways to p(name removed by moderator)oint days for all women and in educating people on how to use the new methods.

In my diocese, there is a suggested donation for NFP classes to cover the cost of materials, but it can be waived in the case of financial need.

Two forms of NFP - Creighton and Marquette - are named for the Catholic universities who developed them.

 

[a_cermak]

In my diocese, there is a suggested donation for NFP classes to cover the cost of materials, but it can be waived in the case of financial need.

Two forms of NFP - Creighton and Marquette - are named for the Catholic universities who developed them.

Good to hear about the Universities. May their tribe increase.

Glad to hear they’ll waive the donation, but again, it should be free and promoted to everyone. And taught by someone with a scientific background. My old parish had a couple who taught it and it wasn’t very scientifically presented. Of course, I’m an engineer, so my expectations were probably a little high.

 

[Burt_Macklin]

Good to hear about the Universities. May their tribe increase.

Glad to hear they’ll waive the donation, but again, it should be free and promoted to everyone. And taught by someone with a scientific background. My old parish had a couple who taught it and it wasn’t very scientifically presented. Of course, I’m an engineer, so my expectations were probably a little high.

Free??? You should be ashamed to even use that word. What you’re really saying is that people who donate to church should pick up someone else’s bills. People have enough money to pay their other bills they shouldn’t expect to have their birth control bill taken care of.

 

[a_cermak]

Free??? You should be ashamed to even use that word. What you’re really saying is that people who donate to church should pick up someone else’s bills. People have enough money to pay their other bills they shouldn’t expect to have their birth control bill taken care of.

If the Church expects people to abide by its rules, it is in its interest to make it as easy, painless and yes, inexpensive as possible.

 

[pensmama87]

Good to hear about the Universities. May their tribe increase.

Glad to hear they’ll waive the donation, but again, it should be free and promoted to everyone. And taught by someone with a scientific background. My old parish had a couple who taught it and it wasn’t very scientifically presented. Of course, I’m an engineer, so my expectations were probably a little high.

Well, there are lots of different kinds of NFP. If you want scientific, Creighton FertilityCare is a great model. A lot of people like the Couple to Couple League approach (which sounds like what your parish had) because it’s not heavy on the science side, but focuses on the “you can learn this too” side. In many cases where there isn’t weird stuff going on, that is sufficient. I tend towards the academic way myself, but that can be intimidating to as lot of people.

Our diocesan classes, at least the ones presented in pre-Cana, were Billings and sympto-thermal, taught at the Catholic hospital by medical professionals. NFP describes a group of methods, and the pedagogy varies by method and the group teaching them. Taking Charge of Your Fertility is a great book that can be found in the library. I bought a copy, but I taught myself NFP. For us, that has been sufficient. But it is far from the only option out there.

 

[LongingSoul]

About 30 years ago when my father was the President of our local Knights of the Southern Cross, there was a big issue being looked at by the organisation to do with a litmus paper that had been developed for fertility testing but the patent had been bought by a pharmaceuticals company who had shelved it. Perhaps it is the same technology that is now used to identify ovulation for those having difficulty falling pregnant? I’m not sure.

I was too young to be that interested at the time and now my Dad has dementia and can’t give me any information about it all. I remember it being a big issue at the time though. There is no doubt that the pharmaceuticals industry have the capacity to wield inordinate control over these issues.

 

[UnCatholicBride]

About 30 years ago when my father was the President of our local Knights of the Southern Cross, there was a big issue being looked at by the organisation to do with a litmus paper that had been developed for fertility testing but the patent had been bought by a pharmaceuticals company who had shelved it. Perhaps it is the same technology that is now used to identify ovulation for those having difficulty falling pregnant? I’m not sure.

I was too young to be that interested at the time and now my Dad has dementia and can’t give me any information about it all. I remember it being a big issue at the time though. There is no doubt that the pharmaceuticals industry have the capacity to wield inordinate control over these issues.

Are you talking about LH strips (Ovulation Predictor Kits). They’re an ELISA-based test strip that detects the surge of luteinizing hormone that occurs prior to ovulation. The only downside is that women with polycystic ovary syndrome or other ovarian dysfunction have have false positives on the LH strips, and even women with normal ovarian function can have a surge and then end up not ovulating that moth for one reason or another.

 

[Cojuanco]

I have heard and read about the experiences of people who have had accidental pregnancies with NFP. This can put unneeded stress on a marriage.

Why isn’t there a fool proof form of the method? I’m thinking of something like a blood test they use for diabetes that could just return a yes/no or percentage of risk or something like that that would obviate the need for taking a temp first thing in the morning (hard if you have sleepless nights due to an infant) or for taking cervical mucous signals.

I know the Creighton model uses fertility tests to confirm, but even they aren’t perfect as the sperm can survive long enough to miss the first luten test.

Is anyone working on something like this? The NFP model is highly effective when used as exactly meant, but it’s as used effectiveness is quite a bit lower than say the effective rate of IUDs or implantable or injected hormonal birth control (these methods are highly effective because they do not rely on perfect observance).

I think if something like this were invented that took out the charting and the perfect use requirements (other than abstaining when the meter said no), that NFP usage would skyrocket.

Because there is no such thing as a foolproof method of family planning. I’ve met enough children who were IUD babies, or shot babies, etc.

As for improving the methods, well, scientific progress has brought us thus far; we need to merely let the boffins do their work, no?