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CrispSnowflake
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In some Orthodox Churches Uriel is considered an archangel or an angel.
Why don’t Catholics think Uriel is also an archangel?
:angel1:
Why don’t Catholics think Uriel is also an archangel?
:angel1:
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Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
Interesting Question, I thought it was obvious, but just found that the answer is not so clear. I think Uriel is supposed to be one of the seven archangels (others including Michael, Raphael, Gabriel, etc). Honestly I don’t know, but I’m subscribing to this thread and see what others will say.
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FrDavid96
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He is.
The reason why Michael Gabriel and Raphael are the most often mentioned is because they are the only 3 names explicitly mentioned in Scripture.
The other names (like Uriel or alternately Arial etc.) are from extra-canonical sources.
The other 3 (to make 7) are Raguel, Sariel, and Jerahmeel–at least according to the Catholic encyclopedia. Spellings vary of course.
newadvent.org/cathen/12640b.htm
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CrispSnowflake
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Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
More like Don’t Trust the Book of Enoch, but not Everything contained therein.I thought we shouldn’t trust the Book of Enoch?
Thank you for the link, though!
The Book of Enoch I believe contains authentic oral tradition, as we see Saint
Jude seemingly “quoting” from that book, but more likely both are pulling from
that same oral tradition.
Best try not to read and find out what is valid in Enoch, just don’t be so quick
as to denounce the entirety of it, is what I’d say concerning the book.
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Viola_Incognita
Guest
The Holy Spirit guided the Church to NOT include the Book of Enoch in the canon of Scripture. We should trust that the Holy Spirit knew what He was doing when He did this.I thought we shouldn’t trust the Book of Enoch?
Thank you for the link, though!
Stick with the names of the Archangels which our Mother Church has given us. You can’t go wrong that way. St. Michael, St. Gabriel, St Raphael, pray for us!
May Christ’s peace be with you.
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FrDavid96
Guest
What would you say about Saints Joachim and Anne, whose feast day we celebrated just a few days ago?
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FrDavid96
Guest
It’s not part of the canon of Scripture.I thought we shouldn’t trust the Book of Enoch?
Thank you for the link, though!
This topic (here, the subject of this thread) is not a matter of reading Enoch the same way we read Scripture. That just wasn’t the question.
The OP asked why isn’t Urial an archangel? Not the question “should we trust Enoch?”
Remember the topic?
The answer is two-fold.
- We do. Uriel/Ariel is one of the names of the 7 archangels (I happen to prefer the “A” spelling)
- The name itself is not found in Scripture but in an extra-canonical source; therefore the name is not used at certain times, such as the feast day of the archangels on Oct. 2
#2 does address your question though: The Church gives prominence to Sacred Scripture and one way of expressing that is by only naming Michael Gabriel and Raphael in the name of the feast.
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Viola_Incognita
Guest
You sound annoyed. You can’t be annoyed by my saying to trust the Holy Spirit and the Church, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt that it’s about something else. Would you care to explain? Pax.
Perhaps there is a misunderstanding between how one reads Scripture and how one prays? When I think of Uriel not being considered an archangel, I think of it in terms of prayer. This is the Spirituality forum. CrispSnowflake and I are not scholars of Scripture, but you may be one and, therefore, you may think of these things differently.
Regarding this:
It doesn’t matter what I say or what you say, but what the Church says.
We wouldn’t have celebrated the Feast of Saints Joachim and Anne if the Church didn’t approve.How does the Church declare saints? Miracles. Signs from God. Even if Saints Joachim and Anne were not in Scripture, there are other ways for the Church to determine truth in regards to sanctity.
If in the Catholic Church we don’t celebrate or have prayers to an archangel named Uriel/Ariel, after all this time, there must be a good reason.
From New Advent:
“Above” we read the following:
FrDavid96, the question remains, aside from the lack of Scriptural evidence, why isn’t Uriel considered an archangel (to whom we pray) while Joachim and Anne are considered saints?
The Church does not consider that we have the names of 7 archangels. In terms of prayer, we only have 3.
Why are Catholics NOT encouraged to pray to beings or people mentioned in extra-canonical sources or in general to the dead, even if considered Servant of God/Venerable? Why should Catholics wait until the Church declares a person Blessed or a Saint?
And if I have phrased my statements or questions forcefully or incorrectly, please excuse me. I do not intend to offend.
May Christ’s peace be with you.
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callmeChris
Guest
it is said that the the number of the angels is infinite. That’s sure a lot of names
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FrDavid96
Guest
There are many extra-biblical sources of the Christian faith.You sound annoyed. You can’t be annoyed by my saying to trust the Holy Spirit and the Church, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt that it’s about something else. Would you care to explain? Pax.
Perhaps there is a misunderstanding between how one reads Scripture and how one prays? When I think of Uriel not being considered an archangel, I think of it in terms of prayer. This is the Spirituality forum. CrispSnowflake and I are not scholars of Scripture, but you may be one and, therefore, you may think of these things differently.
Regarding this:
It doesn’t matter what I say or what you say, but what the Church says.
How does the Church declare saints? Miracles. Signs from God. Even if Saints Joachim and Anne were not in Scripture, there are other ways for the Church to determine truth in regards to sanctity.
If in the Catholic Church we don’t celebrate or have prayers to an archangel named Uriel/Ariel, after all this time, there must be a good reason.
From New Advent:
“Above” we read the following:
FrDavid96, the question remains, aside from the lack of Scriptural evidence, why isn’t Uriel considered an archangel (to whom we pray) while Joachim and Anne are considered saints?
The Church does not consider that we have the names of 7 archangels. In terms of prayer, we only have 3.
Why are Catholics NOT encouraged to pray to beings or people mentioned in extra-canonical sources or in general to the dead, even if considered Servant of God/Venerable? Why should Catholics wait until the Church declares a person Blessed or a Saint?
And if I have phrased my statements or questions forcefully or incorrectly, please excuse me. I do not intend to offend.
May Christ’s peace be with you.
Celebrating Joachim and Anne is one such example. The names of the Blessed Mother’s parents are not recorded in Scripture, yet we accept those names.
When you wrote this:
You are obviously making the point that you see something wrong with having a name of someone (ie Urial) who is not mentioned in Scripture, but instead in an extra-canonical book.
My response was to point out the fact that those extra-canonical books sometimes contain information that the Church has indeed accepted: Joachim and Anne are the obvious example.
If we follow the logic that you are advancing in your post, we would have to eliminate the names of the parents of the Virgin Mary. We would also have to eliminate other names such as Gaspar Melchior and Balthazar, the 3 Magi.
Do you see now why I object to your post, the one I just quoted???
The same applies to the names of the other Archangels.
As I said from the very beginning, the distinction between the names “Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael” are that those names are in Scripture. That’s the reason why they are treated differently. Those names appear in the calendar of the Church.
You say that “there must be a good reason.” If you will read my earlier posts, I articulated that reason. Perhaps you missed it…
I am troubled by your last paragraph:
We are indeed encouraged by the Church to pray to non-canonized persons.
If you would stop for a minute and consider what you are writing before hitting the “submit” button, you might realize that praying to the non-canonized faithful departed is precisely what the Church asks us to do, in the hope that such prayers will result in a miracle revealing that one to be worthy of being numbered among the saints.
The Church only beatifies people after the living have prayed for their intercession and at least one verifiable miracle results.
If we stop praying to non-canonized saints, we will never have any more canonized ones.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
Several of the extra-canonical sources are distributed on the Vatican Website. And they state that, although not officially a part of the Holy Bible, they do contain some noteworthy info.I thought we shouldn’t trust the Book of Enoch?
Thank you for the link, though!
St Uriel is commemorated by name in the Byzantine Rite. The West has decided to only commemorate the names of those listed in Scripture. The Byzantine Rite Eastern Churches have decided to commemorate all seven by name as listed in Eastern tradition.
Byzantine Catholic Churches name: Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel, Salaphiel, Jegudiel, Barachiel
Byzantine Catholic Churches name: Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel, Salaphiel, Jegudiel, Barachiel
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Viola_Incognita
Guest
Agreed.
Agreed.
When you wrote this:
No, that was not my point.I don’t have a problem with extra-canonical books. But it appears that extra-canonical books are a sore spot for you.
I am very sorry that you are so upset about this.
I can see that you are upset. And that there is a misunderstanding. My logic, as you say, is to accept what the Church has proposed for our belief, however, the Holy Spirit guided to us this information, including accepting what comes from extra-canonical sources. We agree.
No one is attacking Saints Joachim and Anne nor the three Magi. As you point out, that would not be logical.
You seem offended that there could be another reason than the one you proposed. Did you read the quotes I gave from New Advent? What about what St. Paul warned about? Sources of information are not the only criteria. St. Paul and New Advent seemed to indicate another reason. I think that reason had to do with not elevating the angels to such a degree that they eclipse the reverence due to God. Was that what St. Paul may have been talking about?
I am troubled by your last paragraph:
We are instructed to pray FOR the dead, not TO them. And we are not to pray to just anyone.
When we pray for someone to be raised to sainthood, we pray special prayers approved by the Church. Again, this is the spirituality forum. And the OP is under the authority of the Catholic Church and a beginner.
Agreed. But we do not pray to just any dead person, but to specific people who the Church approves.
I pray a prayer for the Beatification of Venerable Solanus Casey. The prayer has an Imprimatur from the Archbishop of Detroit. Perhaps the next time I pray the prayer, I will ask Venerable Solanus to help us understand one another. He knew about not understanding or being understood. He was Irish and had to go to a German seminary and try to learn in German. He knows about not being understood.
May Christ’s peace be with you, FrDavid96.
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FrDavid96
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You are contradicting yourself.Agreed.
Agreed.
No, that was not my point.
I can see that you are upset. And that there is a misunderstanding. My logic, as you say, is to accept what the Church has proposed for our belief, however, the Holy Spirit guided to us this information, including accepting what comes from extra-canonical sources. We agree.
No one is attacking Saints Joachim and Anne nor the three Magi. As you point out, that would not be logical.
You seem offended that there could be another reason than the one you proposed. Did you read the quotes I gave from New Advent? What about what St. Paul warned about? Sources of information are not the only criteria. St. Paul and New Advent seemed to indicate another reason. I think that reason had to do with not elevating the angels to such a degree that they eclipse the reverence due to God. Was that what St. Paul may have been talking about?
We are instructed to pray FOR the dead, not TO them. And we are not to pray to just anyone.
When we pray for someone to be raised to sainthood, we pray special prayers approved by the Church. Again, this is the spirituality forum. And the OP is under the authority of the Catholic Church and a beginner.
Agreed. But we do not pray to just any dead person, but to specific people who the Church approves.
I pray a prayer for the Beatification of Venerable Solanus Casey. The prayer has an Imprimatur from the Archbishop of Detroit. Perhaps the next time I pray the prayer, I will ask Venerable Solanus to help us understand one another. He knew about not understanding or being understood. He was Irish and had to go to a German seminary and try to learn in German. He knows about not being understood.
May Christ’s peace be with you, FrDavid96.
You say one thing in one post with regard to the angels,
then you say just the opposite in the next post with regard to saints.
With regard to the non-canonized, you are trying desperately to defend what you wrote but you’re still contradicting the mind of the Church on this issue.
Before (yes, BEFORE) the “cause” of a possible saint can even be introduced, the local bishop must first be convinced of the intercessory power of the possible-saint. That means that people first pray to the possible-saint.
Art. 4 § 2. The Catholic whose cause of beatification and canonization has been initiated is called Servant of God.
Art. 6 - The reputation of intercessory power is the opinion that has spread among the faithful about the graces and favors received from God through the intercession of the Servant of God
Art. 7 - § 1. Before deciding to initiate the cause, the diocesan or eparchial Bishop must verify if, among a significant portion of the people of God, the Servant of God enjoys an authentic and widespread reputation of holiness or of martyrdom as well as an authentic and widespread reputation of intercessory power
You have it backwards.
FIRST we pray for the intercession of the potential-saint.
THEN the Church approves
Only after there is evidence of the intercessory power of the “candidate” can that one be declared by the local bishop as “Servant of God.”
What I just posted is from the particular law governing canonizations from the Congregation for Saints webpage
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/csaints/documents/rc_con_csaints_doc_20070517_sanctorum-mater_en.html
Now, we must keep in mind that public veneration of a candidate is absolutely prohibited before Beatification. However, the private (ie non-liturgical and not organized) veneration of the candidate is actually required by the Church because this is the only way to determine the intercessory power which the Church investigates.
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Judas_Thaddeus
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HAVE TO BE CAREFUL IN SAYING THAT!
I agree there are certain truths here and there in the extra-canonical
sources, but such are not to be trusted as great sources. Like don’t
say “*this *is true” because “The Book of ya-da-yada” mentions it too.
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Viola_Incognita
Guest
Thank you, FrDavid96!
That is what we needed to know.However, CrispSnowflake’s question remains… other than the names of certain archangels coming from extra-canonical sources, why don’t we publicly, or privately for that matter, venerate them? In the Catholic Church, we don’t even privately seek the intercession of an archangel named Uriel/Ariel, nor does the Catholic Church promote such a devotion. Why is it done in the Orthodox Churches but not in the Latin Rite churches?
Thank you for your consideration of this question.
May Christ’s peace be with you.
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Paul_theApostle
Guest
Here is a Catholic site someone else posted elsewhere-
scroll down to see Uriel and prayers to him
catholicfaithwarriors.blogspot.com.au/2012/10/the-seven-archangels.html
scroll down to see Uriel and prayers to him
catholicfaithwarriors.blogspot.com.au/2012/10/the-seven-archangels.html
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FrDavid96
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Well, frankly I’ve already written that several times now. The reason is because only those 3 are mentioned in the Scriptures.Thank you, FrDavid96!
However, CrispSnowflake’s question remains… other than the names of certain archangels coming from extra-canonical sources, why don’t we publicly, or privately for that matter, venerate them?
Thank you for your consideration of this question.
Privately, we do. At least some do. That’s what “privately” means after all. Yes, the Church doesn’t officially promote it, but neither does the Church forbid it.
Why in the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic and not the West? It’s nothing more than a simple matter of non-essential differences between East and West. In a certain limited sense, the East is more comfortable with this sort of thing. Many of the lives of the early saints in the East draw from the books that were excluded from the canon of scripture (as opposed to those that were never considered like the record of certain saints’ lives). I mean here the saints that lived in biblical times because naturally those who lived in the 5th century or so wouldn’t be in the bible no matter what. It’s just a simple matter of different ways of doing things. Neither is more right or more wrong.
Again, Joachim and Anne are a good example of saints mentioned in non-canonical books which the Church (East and West) both accept. Sometimes they (East and West) overlap, sometimes they don’t. There are no “rules” on what parts of the non-biblical books we accept and which parts we don’t (at least no hard and fast rules). The various customs simply developed over time.
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CrispSnowflake
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Thank you all for your kind replies!
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