Why isn't Uriel an archangel?

[Viola_Incognita]

Why in the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic and not the West? It’s nothing more than a simple matter of non-essential differences between East and West. In a certain limited sense, the East is more comfortable with this sort of thing. Many of the lives of the early saints in the East draw from the books that were excluded from the canon of scripture (as opposed to those that were never considered like the record of certain saints’ lives). I mean here the saints that lived in biblical times because naturally those who lived in the 5th century or so wouldn’t be in the bible no matter what. It’s just a simple matter of different ways of doing things. Neither is more right or more wrong.

Again, Joachim and Anne are a good example of saints mentioned in non-canonical books which the Church (East and West) both accept. Sometimes they (East and West) overlap, sometimes they don’t. There are no “rules” on what parts of the non-biblical books we accept and which parts we don’t (at least no hard and fast rules). The various customs simply developed over time.

Thank you for your excellent reply, FrDavid96.

May Christ’s peace be with you.

 

[Maso]

Several of the extra-canonical sources are distributed on the Vatican Website. And they state that, although not officially a part of the Holy Bible, they do contain some noteworthy info.

Ummm…

Is The ***Book of Enoch ***one of them, and which translation(s)…?

Souldn’t that solve it…?

 

[BluesPicker]

Well, frankly I’ve already written that several times now. The reason is because only those 3 are mentioned in the Scriptures.

Privately, we do. At least some do. That’s what “privately” means after all. Yes, the Church doesn’t officially promote it, but neither does the Church forbid it.

Why in the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic and not the West? It’s nothing more than a simple matter of non-essential differences between East and West. In a certain limited sense, the East is more comfortable with this sort of thing. Many of the lives of the early saints in the East draw from the books that were excluded from the canon of scripture (as opposed to those that were never considered like the record of certain saints’ lives). I mean here the saints that lived in biblical times because naturally those who lived in the 5th century or so wouldn’t be in the bible no matter what. It’s just a simple matter of different ways of doing things. Neither is more right or more wrong.

Again, Joachim and Anne are a good example of saints mentioned in non-canonical books which the Church (East and West) both accept. Sometimes they (East and West) overlap, sometimes they don’t. There are no “rules” on what parts of the non-biblical books we accept and which parts we don’t (at least no hard and fast rules). The various customs simply developed over time.

Fr. David,

      I would not pray to spiritual entities not recognized officially by the Catholic Church privately or otherwise.  I see a big difference between asking intersession of some known saintly person who has pasted   &  asking some unknown spiritual entity to intervene into my life.   St. Paul warns to test every spirit; yet, how many today know how to test a spirit?

      The Immaculate Conception is the Queen of Heaven & of the Holy Angels.  St. Michael is the leader of the Armies of the Holy Angels.   I can see him shouting "Who is like God,  Who is like God, Who is like God"  and the  faithful angels gathering around him and this is there battle cry.  But this is just my imagination.  And,  I know it.

   The reason the Western Rite of the Roman Catholic Church sticks to the archangels from Holy Scripture is because the Bible is the rule and guide to our faith.  We know  little about the realm of  spirit.   A mole can sense the world above him that glows warmly and then is dark, dry and sometimes; yet, the world is far more than what the mole can sense.  Through our senses our knowledge of the spiritual realm is very much like the knowledge the  mole has of our world.

       Holy Scripture, Holy Tradition, and Holy Teachings are our guide to Heaven.  The reason the Church has no official prayers containing invocations to Uriel is because it is dangerous to pray to unknown spiritual entities.   When St. Raphael accompanied Tobias  on his journeys he said he was blood relative.  But angelic spirits have no physical bodies.  So when we read the Bible we must  discern or better yet seek approved commentary within the Church.

      We know that evil spirits can mimic and frequently do mimic just about anything even Christ Himself.  I think the wise thing is to stick to what we know to be true.

BP

 

[Viola_Incognita]

Here is a Catholic site someone else posted elsewhere-

scroll down to see Uriel and prayers to him

catholicfaithwarriors.blogspot.com.au/2012/10/the-seven-archangels.html

I took a look at this blog and the prayers. There are prayers addressed to “Saint Uriel.” That doesn’t seem right to me… then I found this from EWTN:

ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=304207&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=2002&Author=&Keyword=uriel&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=1&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=

“Saint” Uriel

Answer by Matthew Bunson on 09-13-2002:

According to legend, Uriel was one of the seven archangels. Unlike the best known (Gabriel, Michael, and Raphael), however, his existence is not supported in any way by Scripture. He is thus attested to only in apocryphal writings such as the ones you mention in your question. Nevertheless, he was very popular throughout Jewish and Christian history, at least until 745 and a council in Rome that removed several angels from all recognized lists. Despite the official action of the Church, there persisted a fondness for Uriel, and his name appeared as St. Uriel in some areas, although he does not appear on the Calendar. In answer to your question, there is no official Church recognition of Uriel, either as an archangel or as a saint. One suspects that the sale of statues of Uriel is the result of the popularity of angel statues of all description.

As a Roman Catholic, I cannot in good conscience pray to a “Saint Uriel.” The Church has not approved such a saint, and may have actually removed the name. It’s up to the Church to discern who has “Saint” by their name and thus whom we can venerate, whether that be in public or private. There is nothing wrong with being obedient and prudent, and allowing oneself to be guided by the Church in this matter.

May Christ’s peace be with you.

 

[FrDavid96]

People are making way too much of this.

No one is required to ask for the intercession of any particular angel, nor to accept any names for angels not specifically mentioned in Scripture.

HOWEVER I am concerned about the “i know better than someone else” tone that I’m seeing here. The Eastern Churches (both Orthodox and Catholic) do number Uriel as an archangel—whether people realize it or not, the fact is that makes it “official.”

The absence of Urial in the Western calendar does not mean that “there is no such angel.” It just doesn’t work that way. Plenty of human saints appear on one calendar or the other, and that doesn’t mean that there’s anything wrong with any of those names either.

The problem is that people are taking some accurate information “the calendar lists Michael Gabriel and Raphael” and draw a false conclusion that this is an indication that the Church somehow forbids or discourages the name Urial as another archangel. It just doesn’t work that way.

This reminds me of a question I often hear from older relatives and friends:
“Why did the Church un-canonize St Christopher?”

I ask “why do you ask that?”

The response is “his feast day isn’t in the calendar anymore.”

At which point, I need to explain that not-being-in-the-calendar is NOT the same thing as not-a-saint.

If you want to limit your own personal devotions to the archangels to Michael Gabriel and Raphael, that’s all well and good. No problem.

But don’t try to impose this on others by implying that they are doing something wrong by listing Urial as well.

 

[FrDavid96]

Fr. David,

      I would not pray to spiritual entities not recognized officially by the Catholic Church privately or otherwise.  I see a big difference between asking intersession of some known saintly person who has pasted   &  asking some unknown spiritual entity to intervene into my life.   St. Paul warns to test every spirit; yet, how many today know how to test a spirit?

      The Immaculate Conception is the Queen of Heaven & of the Holy Angels.  St. Michael is the leader of the Armies of the Holy Angels.   I can see him shouting "Who is like God,  Who is like God, Who is like God"  and the  faithful angels gathering around him and this is there battle cry.  But this is just my imagination.  And,  I know it.

   The reason the Western Rite of the Roman Catholic Church sticks to the archangels from Holy Scripture is because the Bible is the rule and guide to our faith.  We know  little about the realm of  spirit.   A mole can sense the world above him that glows warmly and then is dark, dry and sometimes; yet, the world is far more than what the mole can sense.  Through our senses our knowledge of the spiritual realm is very much like the knowledge the  mole has of our world.

       Holy Scripture, Holy Tradition, and Holy Teachings are our guide to Heaven.  The reason the Church has no official prayers containing invocations to Uriel is because it is dangerous to pray to unknown spiritual entities.   When St. Raphael accompanied Tobias  on his journeys he said he was blood relative.  But angelic spirits have no physical bodies.  So when we read the Bible we must  discern or better yet seek approved commentary within the Church.

      We know that evil spirits can mimic and frequently do mimic just about anything even Christ Himself.  I think the wise thing is to stick to what we know to be true.

BP

I would caution you not to take your own assumptions and your own criteria and label them as the actions or methods of the Church.

 

[Zekariya]

As a Roman Catholic, I cannot in good conscience pray to a “Saint Uriel.” The Church has not approved such a saint, and may have actually removed the name. It’s up to the Church to discern who has “Saint” by their name and thus whom we can venerate, whether that be in public or private. There is nothing wrong with being obedient and prudent, and allowing oneself to be guided by the Church in this matter.

The Latin Church. Stop using “the Church” when you really mean the Latin Church. The Church includes all of the sui iuris Churches. The Byzantine Catholic Churches officially accept St Uriel as a saint.

 

[BluesPicker]

I took a look at this blog and the prayers. There are prayers addressed to “Saint Uriel.” That doesn’t seem right to me… then I found this from EWTN:

ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=304207&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=2002&Author=&Keyword=uriel&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=1&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=

“Saint” Uriel

Answer by Matthew Bunson on 09-13-2002:

According to legend, Uriel was one of the seven archangels. Unlike the best known (Gabriel, Michael, and Raphael), however, his existence is not supported in any way by Scripture. He is thus attested to only in apocryphal writings such as the ones you mention in your question. Nevertheless, he was very popular throughout Jewish and Christian history, at least until 745 and a council in Rome that removed several angels from all recognized lists. Despite the official action of the Church, there persisted a fondness for Uriel, and his name appeared as St. Uriel in some areas, although he does not appear on the Calendar. In answer to your question, there is no official Church recognition of Uriel, either as an archangel or as a saint. One suspects that the sale of statues of Uriel is the result of the popularity of angel statues of all description.

As a Roman Catholic, I cannot in good conscience pray to a “Saint Uriel.” The Church has not approved such a saint, and may have actually removed the name. It’s up to the Church to discern who has “Saint” by their name and thus whom we can venerate, whether that be in public or private. There is nothing wrong with being obedient and prudent, and allowing oneself to be guided by the Church in this matter.

May Christ’s peace be with you.

Well spoken, and you have provided an outside source that is valid and supports your beliefs.

I believe most Catholics ( I am using the term "Catholic" to refer to the Latin Rite of the Roman Catholic Church which is a reasonable expectation for one to hold in a Latin Rite Spirituality forum).

And I just want to make it abundantly apparant that I am nothing other than a Catholic lay person. This is a discussion forum and I stated my beliefs that as an individual human I have a right to make. I hope no one thinks I am some high cleric masquerading as BluesPicker; although some may fall into that fallacy.

   I recognize the right of other people to hold to othe beliefs and the right of  Old Catholic,  Anglican,  Gnostic Catholic church rites to exist.   I certainly would never go to another church forum and attempt to impose beliefs peculiar to the Latin Church Rite.  

  I  see no compelling reason to pray any different than I do now.  I feel  much the exact same way as Viola and for mostly the same reasons.

BP

 

[FrDavid96]

Well spoken, and you have provided an outside source that is valid and supports your beliefs.

I believe most Catholics ( I am using the term "Catholic" to refer to the Latin Rite of the Roman Catholic Church which is a reasonable expectation for one to hold in a Latin Rite Spirituality forum).

And I just want to make it abundantly apparant that I am nothing other than a Catholic lay person. This is a discussion forum and I stated my beliefs that as an individual human I have a right to make. I hope no one thinks I am some high cleric masquerading as BluesPicker; although some may fall into that fallacy.

   I recognize the right of other people to hold to othe beliefs and the right of  Old Catholic,  Anglican,  Gnostic Catholic church rites to exist.   I certainly would never go to another church forum and attempt to impose beliefs peculiar to the Latin Church Rite.  

  I  see no compelling reason to pray any different than I do now.  I feel  much the exact same way as Viola and for mostly the same reasons.

BP

Yes. What you have expressed is your personal opinion.

However, you don’t have a right to impose that on anyone else. By all means share it.

The Church does number Uriel among the Angels–whether you like that or not it’s a fact, even though the name is more prominent in Eastern than in Western Catholicism.

No one is telling you that you must pray to or otherwise venerate Uriel—surely not, but neither can you impose your personal opinion onto others.

 

[Zekariya]

Well spoken, and you have provided an outside source that is valid and supports your beliefs.

I believe most Catholics ( I am using the term "Catholic" to refer to the Latin Rite of the Roman Catholic Church which is a reasonable expectation for one to hold in a Latin Rite Spirituality forum).

The spirituality form is to discuss spirituality. It is neither Western or Eastern. “The Church” always refers to the whole Catholic Church of which the Latins are “a Church”. The term Catholic actually means “on the whole”. You can’t use “Catholic” to mean “only the Latin Church” if you are abiding by the Catholic Faith’s understanding of the word. The Church Fathers, Ecumenical Councils, etc do not hold to your use of the word “Catholic”.

 

[Viola_Incognita]

The spirituality form is to discuss spirituality. It is neither Western or Eastern. “The Church” always refers to the whole Catholic Church of which the Latins are “a Church”. The term Catholic actually means “on the whole”. You can’t use “Catholic” to mean “only the Latin Church” if you are abiding by the Catholic Faith’s understanding of the word. The Church Fathers, Ecumenical Councils, etc do not hold to your use of the word “Catholic”.

Thank you for this clarification. I will try to be more careful of my terminology in the future. I apologize for any misunderstanding. No insult was intended.

When I think of “Latin Church,” I think of the Church in Latin America. I’ve heard “Latin Rite,” but I thought that only had to do with the Liturgy of the Mass.

I’ve never hear the term “sui iuris Churches,” so I looked it up and found this list:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Major_Sui_Iuris_Catholic_Churches
and this:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particular_Church

The Byzantine alone has 14 different Churches! That’s a lot of Churches. With that many different Church traditions, I can see how there would be misunderstandings on this forum.

We’re all in union with Rome and have different saints??? I wish we were as united on earth as they are in heaven. :bighanky:

Praying for unity Unsubscribing.

May Christ’s peace be with you.

 

[Zekariya]

We’re all in union with Rome and have different saints??? I wish we were as united on earth as they are in heaven. :bighanky:

Each sui iuris Church has its own liturgical calendar. Each chooses which saints to commemorate each day. Historically, Church has its own list of feast days that are tailored to the people of that particular Church. Rome has a lot of Western saints celebrated, Antioch has a lot of Middle Eastern saints celebrated, etc.

Rome celebrates St Alphonsus Liguori’s feast day. The Byzantine Rite does not celebrate St Alphonsus Liguori’s feast day. However, we all agree that St Alphonsus Liguori is a saint.

Rome celebrates three Archangels by name. The Byzantine Rite celebrates seven by name. However, we all agree that all Archangels are saints (we just have different local traditions regarding the names).

 

[BluesPicker]

Yes. What you have expressed is your personal opinion.

However, you don’t have a right to impose that on anyone else. By all means share it.

The Church does number Uriel among the Angels–whether you like that or not it’s a fact, even though the name is more prominent in Eastern than in Western Catholicism.

No one is telling you that you must pray to or otherwise venerate Uriel—surely not, but neither can you impose your personal opinion onto others.

  If  one calls voicing an opinion that doesn't agree yours and piques one an imposition in a Latin Rite  discussion forum  than report me to the moderator.   Uriel doesn't appear in official texts of prayers or official teachings of the Catholic Church for the past 1300 years. 

No one here is imposing on anyone. At any rate, I have not seen anything that would compel me to change my views.  Especially when the argument against them constitute ad hominems & strawmans.

Michelle Arnold says concerning the archangel Uriel::

The four angels mentioned in the canonical books of the Bible are the archangels Michael (“Who is like God?”), Gabriel (“The Strength of God”), Raphael (“The Healer of God”), and Lucifer (aka Satan). Uriel (“The Fire of God”) is mentioned in a couple of apocryphal books of Jewish origin."

In another thread Michelle Arnold says:

  "Non-canonical writings from the early centuries of Christianity are not scriptural, but some of them have been influential in Christian art and piety. For example, it is in the Protoevangelium of James that we find the first written evidence of the belief that Joseph was an old man at the time of his marriage to the Blessed Mother (PJ 9) and it is also from the Protoevangelium that the names of Mary's parents, Joachim and Anne, are derived.

So long as we keep in mind that such books were passed over when the canon of Scripture was being assembled, and thus may contain errors, it is fine to read the non-canonical writings and consider them the beginnings of Christian literature. "

Uriel is not listed as an archangel by the Church. Furthermore St. Paul warns in Colossians 2:

“18 You must not allow anyone to cheat you by insisting on a false humility which addresses its worship to angels. Such a man takes his stand upon false visions; his is the ill-founded confidence that comes of human speculation.”

 As  I have said reflecting both Holy Scripture & sound theology:  Praying to unknown spiritual entities is dangerous.    And if  I have to qualify this as my personal beliefs, I will state that this is my personal belief according to my understanding.  

 Uriel appears in the Angelology most frequently in  New Age Angelology along side of the recognized Archangels Michael, Raphael, & Gabriel.  In this context they reference water, air, earth and fire or some other superstitious scheme of elemental spirits & elements, which  I do not subscribe to either. 

Now anyone  call me anything as long as I am not called late to lunch.  Tactless and pointless accusations which nothing more than are empty ad hominems & strawmans will never stop me from stating my opinions and personal beliefs, premisses, assumptions,  conclusions & accusations of imposition included.

BP

 

[FrDavid96]

… Uriel doesn’t appear in official texts of prayers or official teachings of the Catholic Church for the past 1300 years…

In that, you are absolutely wrong. What you stated there is a falsehood.

The Church does number Uriel among the archangels.

The name is used in the Eastern Catholic Churches.

Since you base your entire post on a falsehood, I’m not bothering with the rest.

I’ll give you a little hint for the future: just because you haven’t read something, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.

 

[jimmy]

In that, you are absolutely wrong. What you stated there is a falsehood.

The Church does number Uriel among the archangels.

The name is used in the Eastern Catholic Churches.

Since you base your entire post on a falsehood, I’m not bothering with the rest.

I’ll give you a little hint for the future: just because you haven’t read something, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.

The liturgy is as official as it gets. If it is commemorated in the liturgy, then it is part of the faith. Uriel is commemorated in the Byzantine liturgy, which makes it official.

 

[BluesPicker]

The argument about Uriel is just as ridiculous as if FrDavid96 would insist that priests don’t have to be celibate. We are supposed to follow the tenets of the Latin rite.

 We are supposed to be obedient.  And no,  I seriously doubt that Uriel's name appears in the Liturgy of St. Basil or the Liturgy of  St. John Chrysostom.    I have a friend who was a Greek Orthodox priest and belonged to the Church of  Antioch, a  Church established before Rome & the first Church established outside of  Jerusalem.   

   I  used to go to two Masses on Sundays.  I found the Divine Liturgy of the Greek Orthodox Church to be profoundly deep and spiritual.  Their liturgy is very old and dates back to the time  not long after the Nicene Council.   

  And  Fr. David is wrong  I have read extensively about Uriel.  What  I don't know and what  Fr. David has not provided is what is the history of  St. Uriel  in the Church.  We have apparitions of  St. Michael  recorded many times in the Latin Rite History. 

   I am baffled by the remarks of  Fr. David.   I have to say he fails to inform us here even  about  St. Uriel's role in Eastern Rite Churches.   

  Plus he refuses to look at dialogues of  Michelle Arnold,  a very good  theologian, to understand our responses to this thread.

 

[Zekariya]

The seven archangels are saints (all holy angels are saints). The West celebrates three by name. The East celebrates seven by name. However, it is agreed that all holy angels are saints whether a Church’s tradition names them or not.

The Byzantine Rite Divine Liturgy is ancient but there have been many, many hymns composed and used that were written later than Ss Basil and John Chrysostom. Here is a Coptic Rite Matins hymn, The Heavenly Orders Doxology (Suriel is the Coptic variant name of Uriel):

Seven archangels, praising as they stand, before the Pantocrator, serving the hidden mystery.

• Michael is the first, Gabriel is the second, Raphael is the third, a symbol of the Trinity.

Suriel, Sedakiel, Sarathiel and Ananiel, the luminous the great and the holy, asking Him for the creation.

• The Cherubim the Seraphim, the Thrones the Dominions and Powers, the four incorporeal creatures, carrying the throne of God.

The twenty-four presbyters, in the Church of the firstborn, praising Him incessantly, proclaiming and saying.

• Holy O God, the sick O Lord heal them, holy O Mighty, those who slept repose them.

Holy O Immortal, bless Your inheritance, and may Your mercy and Your peace, be a fortress unto Your people.

• Holy holy, holy O Lord of hosts, heaven and earth are full of, Your glory and Your honor.

And when they say “Alleluia”, the heavenly follow them saying, “Holy Amen Alleluia, glory be to our God.”

• Intercede on our behalf, O angelic hosts, and all the heavenly multitudes, that He may forgive us our sins.

 

[jimmy]

The argument about Uriel is just as ridiculous as if FrDavid96 would insist that priests don’t have to be celibate. We are supposed to follow the tenets of the Latin rite.

 We are supposed to be obedient.  And no,  I seriously doubt that Uriel's name appears in the Liturgy of St. Basil or the Liturgy of  St. John Chrysostom.    I have a friend who was a Greek Orthodox priest and belonged to the Church of  Antioch, a  Church established before Rome & the first Church established outside of  Jerusalem.   

   I  used to go to two Masses on Sundays.  I found the Divine Liturgy of the Greek Orthodox Church to be profoundly deep and spiritual.  Their liturgy is very old and dates back to the time  not long after the Nicene Council.   

  And  Fr. David is wrong  I have read extensively about Uriel.  What  I don't know and what  Fr. David has not provided is what is the history of  St. Uriel  in the Church.  We have apparitions of  St. Michael  recorded many times in the Latin Rite History. 

   I am baffled by the remarks of  Fr. David.   I have to say he fails to inform us here even  about  St. Uriel's role in Eastern Rite Churches.   

  Plus he refuses to look at dialogues of  Michelle Arnold,  a very good  theologian, to understand our responses to this thread.

You are completely wrong. As Zekaria just showed, Urial is specifically named in the liturgical worship of many eastern churches. Therefore, it is doctrine. The liturgy is more authoritative than anything else (except scripture).

And no, we are not to follow the prescriptions of the Latin rite. Your prejudice against the other rites and churches shows your ignorance. The other rites are just as authoritative as the Latin rite. There is no Latin primacy.

Who cares what michelle Arnold says? No disrespect to her, but she is only a theologian, and all that means is that she has read a lot of books and gotten a degree in theology. The fact is that Uriel is mentioned by name in the eastern liturgical worship. No matter what Michelle Arnold says, Uriel will still be an official part of the worship of the Church.