Why it doesn't matter what I believe

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It seems some on this thread have a murky definition of the phrase “to embrace Christ.” To embrace Christ is to believe in Him and follow His commands. Like, “Eat my flesh and drink my blood” or “Love your enemies” or “Take up your cross and follow Me.” The Catholic Church has the fullness of this truth. Outside of her there is no salvation. People with invincible ignorance can be saved, but there’s a huge difference from “can be” and “will be.”
 
Thanks, Wannano!

Unfortunately, my threads always tend to get closed or deleted for some reason. 🤷

Maybe someone else could try?
 
Why it doesn’t matter what I believe

Over the several years I’ve been off and on this forum, I’ve had shifting and very different viewpoints with plenty of ping ponging back and forth between Christianity, Buddhism and Judaism. I have always found that this forum has been respectful, well versed in scripture, and articulate. I have also been impressed and grateful for the many people who have showed genuine concern for me as a person and as a seeker, not just a theologian opponent. Thank you very much!
 
“GOD” can be briefly but accurately described as: all good things perfected”
Matt.5:48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” WHICH only humanity has the ability to accomplish with God’s Grace.

In a WORD, your position can be defined as “predestination” based upon one or more of the life-action you have taken. And THAT is the precise-problem with your position.
Much like your opening statement,** GOD & predestination cannot coexis**t. Such is an impossibility for the following reasons:

God not only IS “Perfect”; GOD can be nothing other than PERFECT

Hence God in an absolute sense cannot give [GIFT] humanity all of the necessary GIFTS: Mind, intellect & Freewill that enables man alone to choose salvation, and then not permit man to freely use them for the precise and exact reason they were given in the first place; namely that man [and man alone in all of the universe], could and can choose to in humility know, love, obey, & serve God in this life and thus merit his salvation in the next, the Eternal Life.

So it is it because God cannot take back the gifts he freely granted to that man could choose to merit his salvation

Doing such an act would make God imperfect, and that is impossible, and deprive man of his RIGHT to choose for himself eternal hell or eternal heaven.
God gives me zero authority to judge the beliefs and paths of others. I am supposed to be discerning yes but it’s not my salvation to give, it’s Gods. So let’s say you are saved by God and are His beloved child on whom He shows favor. My disagreeing with you counts for nothing
“Thus saith the Lord of hosts the God of Israel: Go, and say to the men of Juda, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem: Will you not receive instruction, to obey my words, saith the Lord?” Jer.35:13

“That all the children of Israel might see, that it is good to obey the holy God.”
[Eccl. 46:12]

. “But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men.”
[Acts: 5:29]

“And we are witnesses of these things and the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to all that obey him.”[Acts: 5:32]

“Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are whom you obey, whether it be of sin unto death, or of obedience unto justice.”
[Rom. 6:16]

“You did run well, who hath hindered you, that you should not obey the truth?”
[Gal. 5:7]

“And being consummated, he became, to all that obey him, the cause of eternal salvation.” [Heb. 5:9]

“Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him:” [Eccl. 15:18]
Finnaly, God leads me thru prayer. He calls me first to Him and then to follow His commandments. He doesn’t give me a theology syllable
Actually dear friend God DOES
Please look up the following [here’s a user friendly site to make it easy]
. quod.lib.umich.edu/r/rsv/
I indulge myself too much in theological speculation. All I should do is work a tentative rough framework that makes sense of what I encounter in prayer. So far, I’m continuing to fall flat in that regard, but I do feel I’m getting closer with each attempt.
Good & VERY GOOD.

I’ll end where I begin. Fred. Seek God’s Truth which can ONLY BE, singular per defined issue; everything else will result in failure. And you’ll know when you have cooperated sufficiently with GODS Grace when you are able to conclude what GOD would have YOU conclude; that HIS One True Church and the ONLY True Faith rest as God intends within the RCC Magisterium.

Fred, ask yourself: WHY do YOU suppose the bible [WHICH BTW IS A CATHOLIC BOOK] exist?

This IS historically, biblically, logically provable.👍

You’re in my prayers,

Patrick [PJM]
 
The Church is the channel by which God manifests His Grace. To reject the Church is to reject Christ.
Well this is a concern. Do you at least see these Christ-Rejecting individuals as Christians? Does the Catachism see it this way? Honestly it sounds more like a Vortex topic.

Regards
 
Me neither. That’s why I sought out the authoritative Church established by Christ that not even the gates of hell could overcome.
Yea that is a preferred Catholic stance.

It’s hard to imagine Pope Francis with a few Protestants saying " it will be very hard for you guys to get to heaven compared to us Catholics ".

Rather try to be like the Pope. 🙂

Regards
 
Well this is a concern. Do you at least see these Christ-Rejecting individuals as Christians? Does the Catachism see it this way? Honestly it sounds more like a Vortex topic.

Regards
There is no salvation outside the Church. There is the POSSIBLE salvation of those who genuinely don’t know of Christ’s Church, but that number is very few in my opinion.
 
There is no salvation outside the Church. There is the POSSIBLE salvation of those who genuinely don’t know of Christ’s Church, but that number is very few in my opinion.
So we are Christian or not in your opinion for " rejecting Christ"?
 
So we are Christian or not in your opinion for “rejecting Christ”?
Is that what I said? But don’t take my word. Take the CCC’s.

OUTSIDE THE CHURCH THERE IS NO SALVATION" [from the Catechism of the Catholic Church]
  1. How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? [cf. St. Cyprian, Ep 73:21; PL 3:1169; De Unit PL 4:509-536] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.” [Vatican II LG 14]
  1. This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.” [Vatican II LG 16]

So it’s clear from the CCC that those who reject the Church can’t be saved.
 
Ok, but notice how we’re starting to add some definitions here. It’s no longer enough simply to “embrace Christ”. We have to have certain beliefs.

Here you’re saying belief that Jesus is the Son of God is not optional.

Why is belief in the Real Presence optional in order to be called a Christian?
How about belief in the efficacy of Baptism? A lot of people “embrace Christ” who do not believe that baptism is necessary - that it’s just a symbol. Why can a person deny that and still be considered a Christian? Are they really embracing Christ? Or are they like Muslims who embrace Christ as a Prophet?
It seems clear that if someone is a Christian, they embrace Christ as divine. I am not incidentally saying that anyone who does not believe this is damned, merely that they are not a Christian. Arguably, someone who does not believe in the real presence is not a faithful Catholic, but could nonetheless be a Christian, they just have a different focus to their faith, probably more based on teaching the word than on sacraments. The doctrine of Baptism by Desire clearly shows that a literal baptism with water is not necessary for salvation as does the doctrine of Invincible Ignorance.

Whether or not it is harder for a Christian who is not part of the RC to get into Heaven is something we can not know, but it seems unlikely, again see Invincible Ignorance. It also seems incredibly unlikely that anyone of any denominations could ever possess the fullness of the truth. Almost by definition, that is something only God possesses.
 
It seems clear that if someone is a Christian, they embrace Christ as divine. I am not incidentally saying that anyone who does not believe this is damned, merely that they are not a Christian. Arguably, someone who does not believe in the real presence is not a faithful Catholic, but could nonetheless be a Christian, they just have a different focus to their faith, probably more based on teaching the word than on sacraments. The doctrine of Baptism by Desire clearly shows that a literal baptism with water is not necessary for salvation as does the doctrine of Invincible Ignorance.

Whether or not it is harder for a Christian who is not part of the RC to get into Heaven is something we can not know, but it seems unlikely, again see Invincible Ignorance. It also seems incredibly unlikely that anyone of any denominations could ever possess the fullness of the truth. Almost by definition, that is something only God possesses.
Read the CCC quote I provided.
 
Read the CCC quote I provided.
You quoted Lumen Gentium was it saying “Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”

Let’s face it, if someone believes membership of the RC is necessary for salvation, that is where they will be. If someone decides not to join/to leave the RC, clearly they do not believe membership is necessary for salvation, and (even assuming “no salvation outside of the church” has any truth to it) would be covered by invincible ignorance.
 
Is that what I said? But don’t take my word. Take the CCC’s.

OUTSIDE THE CHURCH THERE IS NO SALVATION" [from the Catechism of the Catholic Church]
  1. How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? [cf. St. Cyprian, Ep 73:21; PL 3:1169; De Unit PL 4:509-536] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.” [Vatican II LG 14]
  1. This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.” [Vatican II LG 16]

So it’s clear from the CCC that those who reject the Church can’t be saved.
You seem like you will really like the Catachism from Trent and 2 other ones I studied but can not remember now. Will check when I can and refer you. There the wording is a lot harsher 😊

Although I still missed the part about rejecting Christ. Look I am a fan of the CCC on some parts but I would agree this is trying to make it sound more “accepting” than before.

However I still cannot seem to see where the rejecting Christ part comes in unless you infer it. And that is somewhat ambigious saying one rejects Christ but still call him a Christian 🤷. Which I agree may be the case. Makes you wonder why it changed then from previous Catechisms hey?

Side note : It was actually pretty clear here they “MAY” be saved 🙂
 
You quoted Lumen Gentium was it saying “Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”

Let’s face it, if someone believes membership of the RC is necessary for salvation, that is where they will be. If someone decides not to join/to leave the RC, clearly they do not believe membership is necessary for salvation, and (even assuming “no salvation outside of the church” has any truth to it) would be covered by invincible ignorance.
So in your opinion, apostasy from Christ’s Church is not a sin?
 
Is that what I said? But don’t take my word. Take the CCC’s.

OUTSIDE THE CHURCH THERE IS NO SALVATION" [from the Catechism of the Catholic Church]
  1. How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? [cf. St. Cyprian, Ep 73:21; PL 3:1169; De Unit PL 4:509-536] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
    **
    "Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation
    : the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it." [Vatican II LG 14]
  2. This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.” [Vatican II LG 16]

So it’s clear from the CCC that those who reject the Church can’t be saved.
You seem like you will really like the Catachism from Trent and 2 other ones I studied but can not remember now. Will check when I can and refer you. There the wording is a lot harsher 😊

Although I still missed the part about rejecting Christ. Look I am a fan of the CCC on some parts but I would agree this is trying to make it sound more “accepting” than before.

However I still cannot seem to see where the rejecting Christ part comes in unless you infer it. And that is somewhat ambigious saying one rejects Christ but still call him a Christian 🤷. Which I agree may be the case. Makes you wonder why it changed then from previous Catechisms hey?

Side note : It was actually pretty clear here they “MAY” be saved 🙂
Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”

So the CCC is pretty clear: the Church is the Body of Christ, and if you reject the Church you reject the Founder.

And “may” doesn’t equal “will.”
 
Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”

So the CCC is pretty clear: the Church is the Body of Christ, and if you reject the Church you reject the Founder.

And “may” doesn’t equal “will.”
I suggest you read all the points you posted and maybe think what I said. You seem to focus on only the saucy part. I suggest the Catachism of Trent 🙂 it has a lot more and also “authoritative”.

Interesting you pointed out your last point… does the CCC state Catholics “will” be saved?

And also. I am still hung up about rejecting Christ and also being called a Christian? Please explain this:blush:
 
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