Why it's called the Mass, (aka Its not from Ite misa est)

[Abba]

It seems as though Saint Justin Martyr wrote in Greek: logos.com/product/9435/the-major-works-of-justin-martyr-in-greek I guess the Roman leaders had command of the Greek language.

It’s in his first apology that he uses the word assembly to refer to the Mass. I wonder if he wrote that in Greek or Latin and what word he used for ‘assembly.’

“But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.”

Then:

We hold our common assembly on Sunday because it is the first day of the week, the day on which God put darkness and chaos to flight and created the world, and because on that same day our savior Jesus Christ rose from the dead. For he was crucified on Friday and on Sunday he appeared to his apostles and disciples and taught them the things that we have passed on for your consideration.

 

[Abba]

The Jews called their “Mass” (bear with me please) - ASSEMBLY just like Saint Justin Martyr is calling it. Also, Justin and the French lady are saying that it is ‘celebrated’ and this is connected with festive (just like in the OT) which is a celebration that has a feast - Eucharist.

Exodus 12:16 On the first day you shall have a holy assembly, and another holy assembly on the seventh day; no work at all shall be done on them, except what must be eaten by every person, that alone may be prepared by you.

Exodus 12:16Biblia Sacra Vulgata (VULGATE)

16 dies prima erit sancta atque sollemnis et dies septima eadem festivitate venerabilis nihil operis facietis in eis exceptis his quae ad vescendum pertinent

Now to solve the puzzle we must connect ‘assembly’ to ‘Missa’ and according to Google (of course it needs to be researched etc…) ‘mass’ for a group of people, the masses etc… comes from the Latin ‘missa’.

Numbers 10:7 When convening the assembly, however, you shall blow without sounding an alarm.

etc…biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=assembly&qs_version=NASB

 

[Abba]

P.s. I found it because I searched ‘assembly’ in the Bible, but, it only comes up in the OT.
biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=assembly&qs_version=NASB Ummm, I wonder if it was used in the NT but the Greek word is different…

Correction: It is in the NT…
New Testament (8)
Acts (6)
Hebrews (1)
James (1)

For indeed we are in danger of being accused of a riot in connection with today’s events, since there is no real cause for it, and in this connection we will be unable to account for this disorderly gathering.” 41 After saying this he dismissed the [ag]assembly.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?
qs_version=NASB&quicksearch=assembly&begin=66&end=66

 

[BartholomewB]

It seems as though Saint Justin Martyr wrote in Greek: logos.com/product/9435/the-major-works-of-justin-martyr-in-greek I guess the Roman leaders had command of the Greek language.

It’s in his first apology that he uses the word assembly to refer to the Mass. I wonder if he wrote that in Greek or Latin and what word he used for ‘assembly.’

“But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.”

Then:

We hold our common assembly on Sunday because it is the first day of the week, the day on which God put darkness and chaos to flight and created the world, and because on that same day our savior Jesus Christ rose from the dead. For he was crucified on Friday and on Sunday he appeared to his apostles and disciples and taught them the things that we have passed on for your consideration.

Abba, I’m going off on a tangent here, but I find it curious that Justin Martyr uses Saturn and Sun, the names of the pagan gods and/or planets, for the days of the week. In Church Latin they took over the Hebrew system of numbering the days, except for Shabbat (Sabbath, Saturday), altering only the name of the “first day” to “the Lord’s Day,” *dies dominica. *

In connection with De Maria’s proposed etymology of “missa” from “matzah,” something else that occurs to me now is that there are very few Hebrew words that were taken over untranslated into the terminology of the early Latin-speaking Church. These are the only ones that I can think of on the spur of the moment:

Halleluiah
Hosanna
Amen
Messiah
Sabbath
Satan
Pascha (from Pesach, Passover) as the Latin name for Easter, surviving in Italian Pasqua, Spanish *Pascua, *and several other languages, though in English only as the adjective “paschal,” I think.

That seems to be about the lot. Are there any others that I’ve forgotten? I’m not including personal names or place names, of course.

 

[BartholomewB]

The Jews called their “Mass” (bear with me please) - ASSEMBLY just like Saint Justin Martyr is calling it. Also, Justin and the French lady are saying that it is ‘celebrated’ and this is connected with festive (just like in the OT) which is a celebration that has a feast - Eucharist.

Exodus 12:16 On the first day you shall have a holy assembly, and another holy assembly on the seventh day; no work at all shall be done on them, except what must be eaten by every person, that alone may be prepared by you.

Exodus 12:16Biblia Sacra Vulgata (VULGATE)

16 dies prima erit sancta atque sollemnis et dies septima eadem festivitate venerabilis nihil operis facietis in eis exceptis his quae ad vescendum pertinent

Now to solve the puzzle we must connect ‘assembly’ to ‘Missa’ and according to Google (of course it needs to be researched etc…) ‘mass’ for a group of people, the masses etc… comes from the Latin ‘missa’.

Numbers 10:7 When convening the assembly, however, you shall blow without sounding an alarm.

etc…biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=assembly&qs_version=NASB

There are two other Greek words that both mean, basically, just “assembly,” I think, that turn up frequently in the NT, though each one in its specialized sense: synagogue and synedrion, taken over into Aramaic or Hebrew in the form Sanhedrin.

 

[Abba]

There are two other Greek words that both mean, basically, just “assembly,” I think, that turn up frequently in the NT, though each one in its specialized sense: synagogue and synedrion, taken over into Aramaic or Hebrew in the form Sanhedrin.

Interesting.

+++

I think James, if at all, may be the only one in the NT using ‘assembly’ as ‘Mass.’ All the other uses in the NT are just for a ‘gathering’ at the civil courts.

BartholonewB, what do you think? Do you think Saint Justin Martyr may provide the key to solving this mystery? I think it stands to reason that the early Church would call Mass, Holy Assembly as in the OT because after all, Christianity was thought to be a Jewish Sect and as a Jewish faith they would have kept the name. Justin certainly did. I just got lucky, I started reading the ancients on the Eucharist and voila - assembly, then in the OT - Holy Assembly!

Assembly somehow became Missam in the Latin. Do you know what effect the ‘m’ adds to a Latin word? I think ‘missam’ still meant ‘assembly’.

It’s interesting, I was taking a look at ‘multitudo’ and what comes up is Jesus breaking bread with His followers. It’s like Jesus celebrated Mass with His followers because He had an Assembly, the Assembly was Celebrated/Festive (food was served) and it was Holy because He was present. Notice how Jesus (the High Priest) Himself blessed and broke the bread - announcing our Mass to come. Jesus could just as well from a distance converted or multiplied the loaves - but in no occasion did He do so, as the priest that He is - He did it Himself. Interesting…

Mark 6:41 Tak****ing the five loaves and the two fish, he looked up to heaven, and blessed and broke the loaves, and gave them to his disciples to set before the people; and he divided the two fish among them all. [NRSV]

Mark 8:6-7 Then he ordered the crowd to sit down on the ground; and he took the seven loaves, and after giving thanks he broke them and gave them to his disciples to distribute; and they distributed them to the crowd. [7] They had also a few small fish; and after blessing them, he ordered that these too should be distributed. [NRSV]

Matthew 14:17-21 They replied, “We have nothing here but five loaves and two fish.” [18] And he said, “Bring them here to me.” [19] Then he ordered the crowds to sit down on the grass.** Taking** the five loaves and the two fish, he looked up to heaven, and blessed and broke the loaves, and gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the crowds. [20] And all ate and were filled; and they took up what was left over of the broken pieces, twelve baskets full. [21] And those who ate were about five thousand men, besides women and children. [NRSV]

Matthew 15:35-38 Then ordering the crowd to sit down on the ground, [36] he took the seven loaves and the fish; and after giving thanks he broke them and gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the crowds. [37] And all of them ate and were filled; and they took up the broken pieces left over, seven baskets full. [38] Those who had eaten were four thousand men, besides women and children. [NRSV]

Luke 9:16 And taking the five loaves and the two fish, he looked up to heaven, and blessed and broke them, and gave them to the disciples to set before the crowd. [NRSV]

John 6:11 Then Jesus took the loaves, and when he had given thanks, he distributed them to those who were seated; so also the fish, as much as they wanted… [NRSV]

did this
do this
festive
festival
feast
convocation
assembly
mass
masses
gathering
congregation
multitude

Latin in the same order:

fecit hoc
hoc facturus esset
festive
festum
convivium
eadem festivitate venerabilis
multitudo
mass
missas
congregatio
multitudo
multitudo

Multitude in the Bible:
biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=NASB&quicksearch=multitude&begin=73&end=73

 

[Abba]

The Eucharist of Paul 1 Cor 10:14-22; 11:17-34

1 Corinthians 11:23-26 [23] For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took a loaf of bread, [24] and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” [25] In the same way he took the cup also, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” [26] For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. [NRSV]

The Eucharist of Mark 14:22-25

Mark 14:22-25 [22] While they were eating, he took a loaf of bread, and after blessing it he broke it, gave it to them, and said, “Take; this is my body.” [23] Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he gave it to them, and all of them drank from it. [24] He said to them, “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many. [25] Truly I tell you, I will never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.” [NRSV]

The Eucharist of Matthew 26:17-29

Matthew 26:26-29 [26] While they were eating, Jesus took a loaf of bread, and after blessing it he broke it, gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” [27] Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you; [28] for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. [29] I tell you, I will never again drink of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.” [NRSV]

The Eucharist of Luke 22:14-38

Luke 22:14-20 [14] When the hour came, he took his place at the table, and the apostles with him. [15] He said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; [16] for I tell you, I will not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” [17] Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he said, “Take this and divide it among yourselves; [18] for I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” [19] Then he took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” [20] And he did the same with the cup after supper, saying, "This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. [NRSV]

 

[Abba]

Abba, I’m going off on a tangent here, but I find it curious that Justin Martyr uses Saturn and Sun, the names of the pagan gods and/or planets, for the days of the week. In Church Latin they took over the Hebrew system of numbering the days, except for Shabbat (Sabbath, Saturday), altering only the name of the “first day” to “the Lord’s Day,” *dies dominica. *

But, I thought it was one of the Roman Emperors, Augustin or Julius or an uncle of one of them that adopted the calendar and that is what we have except for some astronomical adjustments of some sort and I think the Church ended adding a day because of some error. Just joining you in your tangent. Justin’s use of Saturn and Sun caught my attention as well.

January
February
March - Mars
April
May
June -
July - Julius
August - Augustin
September - 7
October - 8
November -9
December - 10 (?)

Lunes - moon
Martes - mars
Miercoles - Mercury
Jueves (?)
Viernes (?)
Sabado - Seventh/Sabbath
Domingo - dies dominica What does dominica mean?

 

[ProVobis]

Assembly somehow became Missam in the Latin. Do you know what effect the ‘m’ adds to a Latin word? I think ‘missam’ still meant ‘assembly’.

That would be the accusative case form of the nominative missa, no?

Nom: Missa
Gen: Missae (as in Novus Ordo Missae)
Dat: Missae
Acc: Missam
Abl. Missa

 

[BartholomewB]

But, I thought it was one of the Roman Emperors, Augustin or Julius or an uncle of one of them that adopted the calendar and that is what we have except for some astronomical adjustments of some sort and I think the Church ended adding a day because of some error. Just joining you in your tangent. Justin’s use of Saturn and Sun caught my attention as well.

January
February
March - Mars
April
May
June -
July - Julius
August - Augustin
September - 7
October - 8
November -9
December - 10 (?)

Lunes - moon
Martes - mars
Miercoles - Mercury
Jueves (?)
Viernes (?)
Sabado - Seventh/Sabbath
Domingo - dies dominica What does dominica mean?

These are the names used in Church Latin, when it was decided that it was wrong for Christians to go on using the names of the pagan gods. The new names are first found in written form at around the same time as “missa,” possibly a little earlier.

Sunday, dies dominica
Monday, feria secunda
Tuesday, feria tertia
Wednesday, feria quarta
Thursday, feria quinta
Friday, feria sexta
Saturday, sabbatum.

Dominica is the adjective from Dominus, Lord: *dies dominica *is the Lord’s Day.
*Feria *apparently meant, at the time, a working day or weekday.
Sabbatum is the Hebrew word Shabbat, Sabbath.

Here in Brazil they are recognizably the same names we use in everyday Portuguese, which long ago dropped the pagan names that still survive in Spanish.

Domingo
Segunda-feira
Terça-feira
Quarta-feira
Quinta-feira
Sexta-feira
Sábado.

 

[Abba]

These are the names used in Church Latin, when it was decided that it was wrong for Christians to go on using the names of the pagan gods. The new names are first found in written form at around the same time as “missa,” possibly a little earlier.

Sunday, dies dominica
Monday, feria secunda
Tuesday, feria tertia
Wednesday, feria quarta
Thursday, feria quinta
Friday, feria sexta
Saturday, sabbatum.

Dominica is the adjective from Dominus, Lord: *dies dominica *is the Lord’s Day.
*Feria *apparently meant, at the time, a working day or weekday.
Sabbatum is the Hebrew word Shabbat, Sabbath.

Here in Brazil they are recognizably the same names we use in everyday Portuguese, which long ago dropped the pagan names that still survive in Spanish.

Domingo
Segunda-feira
Terça-feira
Quarta-feira
Quinta-feira
Sexta-feira
Sábado.

They have survived in the English and French language as well as the Spanish. I wonder why the Church did not change it for all the languages.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c5/Italian_-Bracelet-Walters_41269.jpg/600px-Italian-Bracelet-_Walters_41269.jpg

Italian cameo bracelet representing the days of the week, corresponding to the planets as Roman gods: Diana as the Moon for Monday, Mars for Tuesday, Mercury for Wednesday, Jupiter for Thursday, Venus for Friday, Saturn for Saturday, and Apollo as the Sun for Sunday. Middle 19th century, Walters Art Museum
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_days_of_the_week

Well, they are the names of planets.

Except for modern portuguese, the Romance languages preserved the Latin names, except for the names of Sunday, which was replaced by [dies] dominicus, i.e. “Day of the Lord” and of Saturday, which was named for the Sabbath.

“Old Irish adopted the names from Latin, but introduced separate terms of uncertain origin for Wednesday, Thursday and Friday.”

 

[Abba]

Wednesday - Wodan- Germanic God
Friday - Frige-Norse name for the planet venus.
Thursday - thunder- Thor- Norse God.

 

[ProVobis]

They have survived in the English and French language as well as the Spanish. I wonder why the Church did not change it for all the languages.

Among the 7,000 or so languages around the world and all the extinct ones, that would be a lot of work. The Church AFAIK adds only to the Latin.

 

[Abba]

That would be the accusative case form of the nominative missa, no?

Nom: Missa
Gen: Missae (as in Novus Ordo Missae)
Dat: Missae
Acc: Missam
Abl. Missa

Well then, that does not help.

Accusative? Used how? Do you know?

I think it meant, as you know, ‘mass’ as in the masses, gathering, assembly etc… but, we are missing data.

It’s funny in one of my first posts I got snotty and wrote: why not use incense, the gathering, etc… because I thought it should point to the Eucharist. And it looks like they did exactly that - gathering/assembly. But, then, of course, this dates back to the OT and Jewish tradition so it stands to reason.

 

[De_Maria]

The Jews called their “Mass” (bear with me please) - ASSEMBLY just like Saint Justin Martyr is calling it. Also, Justin and the French lady are saying that it is ‘celebrated’ and this is connected with festive (just like in the OT) which is a celebration that has a feast - Eucharist.

Yes, but they celebrated their “mass” (i.e. the Passover) with unleavened bread:
Exo 12:8
‘They shall eat the flesh that same night, roasted with fire, and they shall eat it with *unleavened bread * and bitter herbs

it with unleavened h4682 מַצָּה matstsah

bread h4682 מַצָּה matstsah

The Mass is the Christian Passover:

1 Corinthians 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Exodus 12:16 On the first day you shall have a holy assembly, and another holy assembly on the seventh day; no work at all shall be done on them, except what must be eaten by every person, that alone may be prepared by you.

Exodus 12:16Biblia Sacra Vulgata (VULGATE)

16 dies prima erit sancta atque sollemnis et dies septima eadem festivitate venerabilis nihil operis facietis in eis exceptis his quae ad vescendum pertinent

Now to solve the puzzle we must connect ‘assembly’ to ‘Missa’

Missa becomes assembly, in the course of time, as the Missa is associated with the Catholic assembly.

Missa also becomes associated with dismissal, in the course of time, as the Missa becomes associated with the time for the catechumens to leave.

But Missa is the source for both.

and according to Google (of course it needs to be researched etc…) ‘mass’ for a group of people, the masses etc… comes from the Latin ‘missa’.

Yep.

Numbers 10:7 When convening the assembly, however, you shall blow without sounding an alarm.

etc…biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=assembly&qs_version=NASB

The Hebrew assembly is neither the Passover nor the Mass, since there was no meal celebrated.

 

[ProVobis]

Accusative? Used how? Do you know?

I think it meant, as you know, ‘mass’ as in the masses, gathering, assembly etc… but, we are missing data.

For what it’s worth, I found Newton’s use of mass (of a body) in the physics sense. It also shows how the accusative is used.

*Ergo absoluta vis attractiva corporis A est ad absolutam vim attractivam corporis B, ut massa corporis A ad massam corporis B. *

gutenberg.org/files/28233/28233-h/28233-h.htm

This, however, does not explain how Mass (in the liturgical sense) came out of Missa. The English could have just as easily have kept it as Missa or even Miss.

 

[Abba]

ProVobis, http://www.catholicforum.com/forums/images/smilies/geek.gif
Oh my goodness.

Let me indulge.

For what it’s worth, I found Newton’s use of mass (of a body) in the physics sense. It also shows how the accusative is used.

Ergo absoluta vis attractiva corporis A est ad absolutam vim attractivam corporis B, ut massa corporis A ad massam corporis B.

gutenberg.org/files/28233/28233-h/28233-h.htm

I now wonder if the Latin expert I have been requesting has been here all along?

This, however, does not explain how Mass (in the liturgical sense) came out of Missa. The English could have just as easily have kept it as Missa or even Miss.

True.

Origin
Late Middle English: from Old French masse, from Latin massa, from Greek maza ‘barley cake’; perhaps related to massein ‘knead’. oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/mass

In Spanish the word ‘masa’ means dough.

 

[Abba]

This, however, does not explain how Mass (in the liturgical sense) came out of Missa. The English could have just as easily have kept it as Missa or even Miss.

Yeah, or how ‘assembly’ became 'missam.'It looks like one of those deals we will have to keep with us for possibly years or decades and be on the lookout for a possible answer.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

I must say that this is a breathtaking display of dilettantism as folks attempt to resolve an *etymological *dispute without anyone actually having a command of the relevant languages. Some things are indeed lost in time, so the fact that the consensus of people who **DO **know the languages and ancient sources well supports the Catechism’s link of missa and dismissal need not end the debate definitively. But the OP can hardly mount a challenge to that scholarly consensus without even being able to translate the Latin “fit” (third person singular of fio, fieri - to become/be made, to happen/take place).

BTW, Justin Martyr wrote in Greek.

 

[Elizium23]

So a Higgs boson walks into a Catholic church…