why Jews don't believe in Jesus

[spauline]

Out of all endless possiblities of a human history, God would necessarily have to first bring a Prefiguring Covenant before the Ultimate One. This is necessary if the greatest possible spiritual good would be attained. For, behold, God cannot give Catholicism in the beginning. Humanity’s fall drags them into polytheism. Given this early great force of Original Sin that leaves them painfully attached to the Creation, and both scientifically and religiously immature, humanity could not “HAAANDLE” the truth (i hear Jack Nicholson! ). For with such polytheistic tendencies, humanity would be nothing in the end but Mormons. Hence, God must first give a Prefiguring Covenant that emphasizes His Unicity. Only in the New can the Trinity be unveiled.

But herein is also the additional problem. Human beings take things literally and for granted (“I hear ‘comb the desert’ syndrome!” and that guy is Jewish! ) . Hence, the prefiguring people must necessarily take the beginning cov as an end in and of itself, instead of as merely POINTING to the final end.

But let me share a thesis. The way of the individual Catholic Saint is the way of the Jews, which is the way of the Church. In effect, the three great ages of OT Jewish History that Augustine bears witness to are in fact, as he suggests, a prophecy of the Gospel, that is, the Church, in that the New People shall walk in the path of Her elder Sister, and only when the walk is complete shall the People of Old come to see the light.

Hence, only in third time Jesus speaks, does St. Mary Magdalene recognize Jesus. Similarly, only after three days do Mary and Joseph find Jesus, that is, only after the same three ages of Gentile history that fulfills the precise same three ages of Jewish history will the Jews find Jesus, and Jesus will say, “Well, duh? what did you think? Did you not know I must be about my Father’s business? [that is, for the three ‘days’ that you looked for Me, I was busy redeeming the Gentiles.]”

 

[Valke2]

And I understand what you say here to, just to be clear. But something I found interesting in it

The* purpose of the Temple ***was to have a holy place within which to sanctify the people. ** Jesus saying he would be the new Temple **

This actually makes sense, Jesus said to go through Him to get to God, one is santified in Him the Temple. He did say He didnt come to take away anything, but to fullfill it.

But Jesus never says he will be the new Temple for which the entire people of Israel will be sanctified – only those who give up everything and follow him. Follow his torah. Not the “Torah”. His message is to the individual, not the community. In fact, his message often seems directed at destroying community/social fabric, i.e. setting mother against daughter… So while his message of salvation is one that gentiles could embrace, it seems to presuppose that the Kingdom of Heaven was imminent ("there are those here who will not taste death… [quoting from memory]), it is a message that would not resonate with Jews, who believe we have must live a certian way in this world and that such a way is contrary to what Jesus teaches.

 

[zerinus]

I can’t blame Jews for not accepting Jesus, it does seem to contradict everything Jews were taught from thier religion their entire life.

It’s akin to a Catholic not accepting mormonism. Mormonism contradicts everything Catholics believe so why would a Catholic accept Joseph Smith and his golden angel? As Catholics we can dismiss it out of hand because it contradicts everything we “know” about God. It contradicts the Trinity, God’s omniscience, omnipotence, and and omnipresence. Mormonism contradicts God as spirit, it teaches multiple God’s, and humans becoming God’s. So without even hearing about it we can dismiss it as nonsense. I would think the same applies to a Jew and his view of Christianity. To them God is one, not three in one, but one and only one. So they can dismiss Christianity without even listening to its message. I can’t blame them, I’m a Catholic because I was born Catholic, if I were born Jew I’m sure I would be a Jew, or born Muslim… Well you get it.

The implication of that is that just as the Jews were wrong to reject Jesus and His divine message, the Catholics are equally wrong to reject Mormonism. I couldn’t agree more!

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

Jesus came with a message of salvation to individuals who followed him. But Jews did not hear a message for the eternal Israel. We, as instructed in the Torah, are supposed to sanctify ourselves as a community through following the mitzvot/commandments in the Torah. Jesus had no message for his people as a people. Only as individuals. And that message was to follow him. He emphasized salvation for the Kingdom of Heaven – for the future, to a people who were commanded by God to sanctify themsleves in the here and now. That is one of the main reasons why his message was not and is not followed by the majority of Jews. (IMO)

But that is not the reason that the Jews themselves gave for rejecting Him though. The reason they gave was that He was an impostor, a false prophet, a blasphemer, and so forth. The reasons why they believed that was not for any of the things you have enumerated. The message He gave was for all Israel—provided that they believed in Him of course. If they didn’t believe in Him, then He couldn’t have a message for any them at all. The message was directed at Israel as a whole—provided that they believed in Him. If they didn’t, then His message became applicable to the few that did. He was in the same situation that Moses had been. If the Israelites had not believed that Moses had been sent from God, he couldn’t have had a message for them at all, could he? The same was true of Jesus.

zerinus

 

[Valke2]

There is a difference that your post does not address. That is that a primary message of Torah is that Israel is to be a holy people. A holy community/nation. It then tells us how to do this. How to live in this world as a holy people.

Jesus’ teachings are not directed at Israel as people, but rather to anyone who would follow him. Much of his message is directed specifically at his disciples.

 

[lukewarm]

The implication of **that is that just as the Jews were wrong **to reject Jesus and His divine message, the Catholics are equally wrong to reject Mormonism. I couldn’t agree more!

zerinus

???

Seriously, I have no idea what this means…

 

[Kaninchen]

But that is not the reason that the Jews themselves gave for rejecting Him though. The reason they gave was that He was an impostor, a false prophet, a blasphemer, and so forth.

Could you indicate a Jewish or any non-Christian source for that statement?

Otherwise one is led to assume that you’re getting that from somewhere like the “New Testament” which we don’t accept as any kind of valid source for anything whatsoever.

(though I do admit that I’ve always liked the ‘through a glass, darkly’ bit though, quite a nice useful phrase that)

 

[AgnosTheist]

The Catholic idea of Trinity breaks God into three separate beings: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).

nah, its more like ONE being who has a split personality. With his superpowers (like super speed or omnipresence) it would appear that there are 3 separate beings, when its really one single being manifesting his different split personalities at virtually the same instant.

 

[lukewarm]

nah, its more like ONE being who has a split personality.

No that would be modalism a heresy, no can explain the Trinity, it’s impossible to make sense of, there exists no good analogy for it.

 

[tomarin]

Jesus’ teachings are not directed at Israel as people, but rather to anyone who would follow him. Much of his message is directed specifically at his disciples.

i’m not sure this is as clear-cut as you believe. if you read the gospel according to matthew, the most “jewish” of the gospels, you may find that his message is directed to israel as a people.

as christians we believe that jesus as god did what he did for all of humanity, not just the jews. but throughout the history of christianity christians have had different views about this, and early christians who followed jewish customs and thought of themselves as jews, might have disagreed with your statement.

 

[dessert]

I also e-mailed a rabbbi through
www.about.com:judaism.com
go to ask a rabbi or
www.CHABAD.ORG>>askthe rabbi
not sure if this is the correct e-mail

I was referred to a rabbi’s wife, they all have to be married, they are like teachers like our deacons, the jewish priests offer the sacrifice like our priests, who can’t marry, offer the mass.

She referred me to many statements, take my pick of written out verses, but guessed this was the one.

My parraphrase; If Jesus was a supernatural being with supernatural power then he had to have been (name removed by moderator)regnated to mary by a demigod in other words pagan god.

If Mary were pregnant by a man than she was in adultery, Jesus was just a man. In other words they think Jesus was an illegitemet child.

They don’t seem to consider Mary’s lineage through the Jewish ancestors as i dont think they think much of women anyways or for that matter of Joseph.
D.

 

[Kaninchen]

I was referred to a rabbi’s wife, they all have to be married, they are like teachers like our deacons, the jewish priests offer the sacrifice like our priests, who can’t marry, offer the mass.

I reckon you’ve got a lot more emailing to do!

 

[spauline]

No that would be modalism a heresy, no can explain the Trinity, it’s impossible to make sense of, there exists no good analogy for it.

except the analogy of LOVE! Love is the key to understanding the appropriateness of the Trinity. From man came woman, woman and man join in ultimate love, and the fruit of their love becomes another person just as priceless as them. So then from the Father proceeds the Son, and the infinite love between them “becomes” the Holy Spirit.

 

[dessert]

I reckon you’ve got a lot more emailing to do!

I’m trying to get the right e-mail to work but having no luck but you can sign up for about.com for free… just go to Jusaism everything you want to know section.

It is not a forum or debated site, just info.
D.

 

[Kaninchen]

I’m trying to get the right e-mail to work but having no luck but you can sign up for about.com for free… just go to Jusaism everything you want to know section.

It is not a forum or debated site, just info.
D.

Erm, I’m Jewish, I was suggesting that you need to read a little more before you start posting your conclusions.

 

[mschrank]

Jews don’t believe in Jesus because Judiasm is a “here and now” religion- that’s the reason why they wanted Barabbas instead of Jesus- “Bar Abbas” simply means “Son of the Father”. He was a revolutionary- exactly the kind of messiah the Jews wanted. In some manuscripts he is called “Jesus Barabbas” to drive the point home further.

It’s not about the trinity or anything else. It’s about the emphasis. There was always a tension in Judaism between the “here and now” aspect and the “future rewards” aspect- it’s such a big tension that even in the gospel we can see references to the two major groups, sadducees and pharisees- the ‘here and nows’ vs. the future rewards lot.

Many of the future rewards lot (probably… conjecture) left and formed the basis of the Christian Church, the Sadducees were ascendent after the destruction of the temple (that is actually a fact) and the protestant canon comes from them (Jaamean canon which post dates 70 AD) because the Alexandrian canon contains much of the wisdom literature that puts forth belief in the afterlife.

 

[Kaninchen]

Jews don’t believe in Jesus because Judiasm is a “here and now” religion- that’s the reason why they wanted Barabbas instead of Jesus- “Bar Abbas” simply means “Son of the Father”.

I’m sure there was some other guy around at the time . . .

 

[Joel_Tunnah]

Jesus came with a message of salvation to individuals who followed him. But Jews did not hear a message for the eternal Israel. We, as instructed in the Torah, are supposed to sanctify ourselves as a community through following the mitzvot/commandments in the Torah. Jesus had no message for his people as a people. Only as individuals. And that message was to follow him. He emphasized salvation for the Kingdom of Heaven – for the future, to a people who were commanded by God to sanctify themsleves in the here and now. That is one of the main reasons why his message was not and is not followed by the majority of Jews. (IMO)

This is almost word-for-word from Jacob Neusner’s book, A Rabbi Speaks with Jesus. I got to the end of it, and I was thinking that this was one of those “stiffnecked people” God mentioned.

The claim that the Torah is solely a document aimed at a “community”, and has nothing to say on an individual’s behavior and relationship with God, is absurd on its face.
Equally absurd is the idea that Jesus didn’t address, or promote community. The Kingdom of God is a community. “Israel” to a Chrisitian is the community of those saved by their faith in Christ, and life lived righteously.
Finally, it is also incorrect that his message of the Kingdom of God was about “the future”, and had nothing to do with the here and now. Jesus said, “Behold, the Kingdom of Heaven is upon you.”

It seems obvious to me that many Jews rejected Jesus because he preached to the “unrighteous”. This was unexpected, and unwelcome. You can see it as contradictory to the perceived tribalism of the Torah, or you can ask yourself what kind of messiah would he be if he only spoke to “Israel” in the literal sense?

 

[dessert]

Erm, I’m Jewish, I was suggesting that you need to read a little more before you start posting your conclusions.

OK that is why I did e-mail to try to come to the correct conclusion, but I have another source but have to go out of town for a few hours will try to get back later. thanks D.

 

[zerinus]

There is a difference that your post does not address. That is that a primary message of Torah is that Israel is to be a holy people. A holy community/nation. It then tells us how to do this. How to live in this world as a holy people.

Jesus’ teachings are not directed at Israel as people, but rather to anyone who would follow him. Much of his message is directed specifically at his disciples.

I don’t see where you are getting this from. Jesus’ message was to all Israel. When He began His ministry, He would go to the synagogues of the Jews and teach them—teach all the Jews. Here are some references:

Matthew 12:

9 And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue

Matthew 13:

54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works

Mark 1:

21 And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught.

Mark 1:

29 And forthwith, when they were come out of the synagogue, they entered into the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John.

Mark 3:

1 And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand.

Luke 4:

16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Luke 4:

20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

Luke 4:

38 And he arose out of the synagogue, and entered into Simon’s house. And Simon’s wife’s mother was taken with a great fever; and they besought him for her.

Luke 6:

6 And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered.

John 6:

59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

John 18:

20 Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

So how else was He supposed to deliver His message to all Israel?

In the final days of His ministry, as he entered Jerusalem, He wept over it, saying: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not (Matthew 23:37). So how else was He supposed to address His message to all Israel? He even told His disciples, when He sent them to preach His gospel, that they should not preach to the Gentiles or the Samaritans, but only to the house of Israel:

Matthew 10:

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

So what else was He supposed to do to address His message to all Israel?

zerinus