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inJESUS
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Thank you Valke for all your answers 
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inJESUS
Guest
Another Messianic-Jew site say that the Otot HaMashiach and Zohar are pre-Christian not post Christian 
Again, for the sake of a teaching emphasis, Kayafa (Caiaphas) speaking as a prophet proclaims that Yeshua must be executed, NOT as a punishment for claiming to be the Messiah but, on the contrary, in order to fulfill his own peculiar Messianic kismet: “Yeshua,” he says, “must die for the nation [of Israel]…and not for the nation only, but to gather together in unity [all] the scattered children of God” (the Jews of the Diaspora who had to be regathered to Eretz Yisrael at the EndTime).
Kayafa is calling on the authority of Jewish Oral Scripture. The first part of his prophecy that “Yeshua [must] die for the nation” is paralleled in the Jewish, Pre-Christian Oral Scripture: “When God desires to give healing to the world He smites one righteous man among them…and through him gives healing to all…A righteous man is never afflicted save to bring healing to his generation and to make atonement for it” (Zohar 5.218a).
This Atoning Messiah of Judaism not only “dies for the people,” but also rises from the dead after three days – as shown in another Jewish Oral Scripture that states: “[The] Messiah [ben Joseph] will…be slain and lay in the streets for three days. Then…the prophet Elijah will go and revive [him] … And in the hour when the Tribes of Israel will come forth, Clouds of Glory will go before them. And the Holy One, blessed be He, will open for them the sources of the Tree of Life, and will give them to drink on that day” (Otot HaMashiach).
Clearly, this pre-Christian, Judaic doctrine anticipates Messiah’s prediction throughout the Gospels that on the “third day” He would “rise again.” This prediction is based entirely on Jewish Oral Scripture – it is not to be found anywhere in the Jewish Bible (Tanack). Later, Rav Shaul (Paul) refers to the importance of the “three days” and states categorically that the prediction was taught in the Scripture (1 Corinthians 15:4). It is not located anywhere in the Tanack, but it is found in the Oral Scripture of the time.
The second part of Kayafa’s prophecy – “and not for the nation only, but to gather together in unity the scattered children of God” out of the Diaspora – refers to another Jewish Oral Scripture:
“And then the Community of Israel communes with the Holy One, blessed be He, and that hour is a time of Grace for all, and the King [Messiah] holds out to [Israel], and all who are with her, his scepter of the thread of Grace so that they all may be wholly united to the Holy King” (Zohar 5.45a). Furthermore, a Mishnah by Maimonides states, “If a king will arise from the House of David [who] …gathers the dispersed of Israel [as Kayafa believes Yeshua could do], he is definitely the Messiah” (Mishnah Torah: Hilchot Melachim U’Milchamoteihem 4.11).
Thus, by alluding to these two commonly held doctrines, Kayafa prevails, and the assembled Jewish leaders finally “grasp the situation:” Yeshua has fulfilled the “signs of the Messiah” and, therefore, according to Jewish Oral Scripture, he must enter the next stage of the scenario, which is to “die for the people” in order to “make atonement for His generation” and “unite the scattered children of God.” Consequently, they determine to “kill” him, not as a punishment for His claims, but to catalyze His Messianic vocation
New light is now thrown on why the Jewish “mob” demanded Mashiach’s crucifixion (Matthew 27:11, Mark 15:1, Luke 23:13, John 19:1). Viewed from the perspective of Kayafa’s prophecy, and the Jewish Oral Scriptures that prompted it, their assertion “his blood be on us and our children” (Matthew 27:25) can now be taken to mean, as Rav Shaul later wrote, “Through his blood, we gain our freedom, the forgiveness of our sins” (Ephesians 1:1-7).
biblicalresearchinstitute.com/jewish_thoughtform_1.html
those people are Jews…why would they believe in what they believe in if it’s totally strange from them?
Again, for the sake of a teaching emphasis, Kayafa (Caiaphas) speaking as a prophet proclaims that Yeshua must be executed, NOT as a punishment for claiming to be the Messiah but, on the contrary, in order to fulfill his own peculiar Messianic kismet: “Yeshua,” he says, “must die for the nation [of Israel]…and not for the nation only, but to gather together in unity [all] the scattered children of God” (the Jews of the Diaspora who had to be regathered to Eretz Yisrael at the EndTime).
Kayafa is calling on the authority of Jewish Oral Scripture. The first part of his prophecy that “Yeshua [must] die for the nation” is paralleled in the Jewish, Pre-Christian Oral Scripture: “When God desires to give healing to the world He smites one righteous man among them…and through him gives healing to all…A righteous man is never afflicted save to bring healing to his generation and to make atonement for it” (Zohar 5.218a).
This Atoning Messiah of Judaism not only “dies for the people,” but also rises from the dead after three days – as shown in another Jewish Oral Scripture that states: “[The] Messiah [ben Joseph] will…be slain and lay in the streets for three days. Then…the prophet Elijah will go and revive [him] … And in the hour when the Tribes of Israel will come forth, Clouds of Glory will go before them. And the Holy One, blessed be He, will open for them the sources of the Tree of Life, and will give them to drink on that day” (Otot HaMashiach).
Clearly, this pre-Christian, Judaic doctrine anticipates Messiah’s prediction throughout the Gospels that on the “third day” He would “rise again.” This prediction is based entirely on Jewish Oral Scripture – it is not to be found anywhere in the Jewish Bible (Tanack). Later, Rav Shaul (Paul) refers to the importance of the “three days” and states categorically that the prediction was taught in the Scripture (1 Corinthians 15:4). It is not located anywhere in the Tanack, but it is found in the Oral Scripture of the time.
The second part of Kayafa’s prophecy – “and not for the nation only, but to gather together in unity the scattered children of God” out of the Diaspora – refers to another Jewish Oral Scripture:
“And then the Community of Israel communes with the Holy One, blessed be He, and that hour is a time of Grace for all, and the King [Messiah] holds out to [Israel], and all who are with her, his scepter of the thread of Grace so that they all may be wholly united to the Holy King” (Zohar 5.45a). Furthermore, a Mishnah by Maimonides states, “If a king will arise from the House of David [who] …gathers the dispersed of Israel [as Kayafa believes Yeshua could do], he is definitely the Messiah” (Mishnah Torah: Hilchot Melachim U’Milchamoteihem 4.11).
Thus, by alluding to these two commonly held doctrines, Kayafa prevails, and the assembled Jewish leaders finally “grasp the situation:” Yeshua has fulfilled the “signs of the Messiah” and, therefore, according to Jewish Oral Scripture, he must enter the next stage of the scenario, which is to “die for the people” in order to “make atonement for His generation” and “unite the scattered children of God.” Consequently, they determine to “kill” him, not as a punishment for His claims, but to catalyze His Messianic vocation
New light is now thrown on why the Jewish “mob” demanded Mashiach’s crucifixion (Matthew 27:11, Mark 15:1, Luke 23:13, John 19:1). Viewed from the perspective of Kayafa’s prophecy, and the Jewish Oral Scriptures that prompted it, their assertion “his blood be on us and our children” (Matthew 27:25) can now be taken to mean, as Rav Shaul later wrote, “Through his blood, we gain our freedom, the forgiveness of our sins” (Ephesians 1:1-7).
biblicalresearchinstitute.com/jewish_thoughtform_1.html
those people are Jews…why would they believe in what they believe in if it’s totally strange from them?
V
Valke2
Guest
The Otot was definately 12th century. The Zohar, though is a little fuzzy. Most scholars agree it was written in the medeval era. But the person who “discovered” the book, claimed it was written much earler. However, it is generally accepted that this was done to add legitimacy to the writing and that the person who discovered the Zohar is actually the person who wrote it. Some religious jews will disagree.Another Messianic-Jew site say that the Otot HaMashiach and Zohar are pre-Christian not post Christian
Again, for the sake of a teaching emphasis, Kayafa (Caiaphas) speaking as a prophet proclaims that Yeshua must be executed, NOT as a punishment for claiming to be the Messiah but, on the contrary, in order to fulfill his own peculiar Messianic kismet: “Yeshua,” he says, “must die for the nation [of Israel]…and not for the nation only, but to gather together in unity [all] the scattered children of God” (the Jews of the Diaspora who had to be regathered to Eretz Yisrael at the EndTime).
Kayafa is calling on the authority of Jewish Oral Scripture. The first part of his prophecy that “Yeshua [must] die for the nation” is paralleled in the Jewish, Pre-Christian Oral Scripture: “When God desires to give healing to the world He smites one righteous man among them…and through him gives healing to all…A righteous man is never afflicted save to bring healing to his generation and to make atonement for it” (Zohar 5.218a).
This Atoning Messiah of Judaism not only “dies for the people,” but also rises from the dead after three days – as shown in another Jewish Oral Scripture that states: “[The] Messiah [ben Joseph] will…be slain and lay in the streets for three days. Then…the prophet Elijah will go and revive [him] … And in the hour when the Tribes of Israel will come forth, Clouds of Glory will go before them. And the Holy One, blessed be He, will open for them the sources of the Tree of Life, and will give them to drink on that day” (Otot HaMashiach).
Clearly, this pre-Christian, Judaic doctrine anticipates Messiah’s prediction throughout the Gospels that on the “third day” He would “rise again.” This prediction is based entirely on Jewish Oral Scripture – it is not to be found anywhere in the Jewish Bible (Tanack). Later, Rav Shaul (Paul) refers to the importance of the “three days” and states categorically that the prediction was taught in the Scripture (1 Corinthians 15:4). It is not located anywhere in the Tanack, but it is found in the Oral Scripture of the time.
The second part of Kayafa’s prophecy – “and not for the nation only, but to gather together in unity the scattered children of God” out of the Diaspora – refers to another Jewish Oral Scripture:
“And then the Community of Israel communes with the Holy One, blessed be He, and that hour is a time of Grace for all, and the King [Messiah] holds out to [Israel], and all who are with her, his scepter of the thread of Grace so that they all may be wholly united to the Holy King” (Zohar 5.45a). Furthermore, a Mishnah by Maimonides states, “If a king will arise from the House of David [who] …gathers the dispersed of Israel [as Kayafa believes Yeshua could do], he is definitely the Messiah” (Mishnah Torah: Hilchot Melachim U’Milchamoteihem 4.11).
Thus, by alluding to these two commonly held doctrines, Kayafa prevails, and the assembled Jewish leaders finally “grasp the situation:” Yeshua has fulfilled the “signs of the Messiah” and, therefore, according to Jewish Oral Scripture, he must enter the next stage of the scenario, which is to “die for the people” in order to “make atonement for His generation” and “unite the scattered children of God.” Consequently, they determine to “kill” him, not as a punishment for His claims, but to catalyze His Messianic vocation
New light is now thrown on why the Jewish “mob” demanded Mashiach’s crucifixion (Matthew 27:11, Mark 15:1, Luke 23:13, John 19:1). Viewed from the perspective of Kayafa’s prophecy, and the Jewish Oral Scriptures that prompted it, their assertion “his blood be on us and our children” (Matthew 27:25) can now be taken to mean, as Rav Shaul later wrote, “Through his blood, we gain our freedom, the forgiveness of our sins” (Ephesians 1:1-7).
biblicalresearchinstitute.com/jewish_thoughtform_1.html
those people are Jews…why would they believe in what they believe in if it’s totally strange from them?
V
Valke2
Guest
[URL said:
those people are Jews…why would they believe in what they believe in if it’s totally strange from them?
That link is to a 7th Day Adventist website, not a jewish website. It should tell you something that there don’t seem to be many, if any, jewish websites that support this belief.
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tequilamac
Guest
InJesus, you are not making any sense. the link you provided is not a link to anything particularly Jewish. It is however a radical “christian” group with much compatibility with the JW Russelites in their theology. They are a mix of Judaic teachings, SDA and JW. Very confused people. Why are you claiming them as a Jewish source?Another Messianic-Jew site say that the Otot HaMashiach and Zohar are pre-Christian not post Christian
Again, for the sake of a teaching emphasis, Kayafa (Caiaphas) speaking as a prophet proclaims that Yeshua must be executed, NOT as a punishment for claiming to be the Messiah but, on the contrary, in order to fulfill his own peculiar Messianic kismet: “Yeshua,” he says, “must die for the nation [of Israel]…and not for the nation only, but to gather together in unity [all] the scattered children of God” (the Jews of the Diaspora who had to be regathered to Eretz Yisrael at the EndTime).
Kayafa is calling on the authority of Jewish Oral Scripture. The first part of his prophecy that “Yeshua [must] die for the nation” is paralleled in the Jewish, Pre-Christian Oral Scripture: “When God desires to give healing to the world He smites one righteous man among them…and through him gives healing to all…A righteous man is never afflicted save to bring healing to his generation and to make atonement for it” (Zohar 5.218a).
This Atoning Messiah of Judaism not only “dies for the people,” but also rises from the dead after three days – as shown in another Jewish Oral Scripture that states: “[The] Messiah [ben Joseph] will…be slain and lay in the streets for three days. Then…the prophet Elijah will go and revive [him] … And in the hour when the Tribes of Israel will come forth, Clouds of Glory will go before them. And the Holy One, blessed be He, will open for them the sources of the Tree of Life, and will give them to drink on that day” (Otot HaMashiach).
Clearly, this pre-Christian, Judaic doctrine anticipates Messiah’s prediction throughout the Gospels that on the “third day” He would “rise again.” This prediction is based entirely on Jewish Oral Scripture – it is not to be found anywhere in the Jewish Bible (Tanack). Later, Rav Shaul (Paul) refers to the importance of the “three days” and states categorically that the prediction was taught in the Scripture (1 Corinthians 15:4). It is not located anywhere in the Tanack, but it is found in the Oral Scripture of the time.
The second part of Kayafa’s prophecy – “and not for the nation only, but to gather together in unity the scattered children of God” out of the Diaspora – refers to another Jewish Oral Scripture:
“And then the Community of Israel communes with the Holy One, blessed be He, and that hour is a time of Grace for all, and the King [Messiah] holds out to [Israel], and all who are with her, his scepter of the thread of Grace so that they all may be wholly united to the Holy King” (Zohar 5.45a). Furthermore, a Mishnah by Maimonides states, “If a king will arise from the House of David [who] …gathers the dispersed of Israel [as Kayafa believes Yeshua could do], he is definitely the Messiah” (Mishnah Torah: Hilchot Melachim U’Milchamoteihem 4.11).
Thus, by alluding to these two commonly held doctrines, Kayafa prevails, and the assembled Jewish leaders finally “grasp the situation:” Yeshua has fulfilled the “signs of the Messiah” and, therefore, according to Jewish Oral Scripture, he must enter the next stage of the scenario, which is to “die for the people” in order to “make atonement for His generation” and “unite the scattered children of God.” Consequently, they determine to “kill” him, not as a punishment for His claims, but to catalyze His Messianic vocation
New light is now thrown on why the Jewish “mob” demanded Mashiach’s crucifixion (Matthew 27:11, Mark 15:1, Luke 23:13, John 19:1). Viewed from the perspective of Kayafa’s prophecy, and the Jewish Oral Scriptures that prompted it, their assertion “his blood be on us and our children” (Matthew 27:25) can now be taken to mean, as Rav Shaul later wrote, “Through his blood, we gain our freedom, the forgiveness of our sins” (Ephesians 1:1-7).
biblicalresearchinstitute.com/jewish_thoughtform_1.html
those people are Jews…why would they believe in what they believe in if it’s totally strange from them?
A more interesting source of info on Jews comes from the Orthodox Jews who resist Zionism. Very interesting. Google for them. I can’t remember their name. A rather small group, but definately truly Jewish.
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inJESUS
Guest
i thought they were Jews, my mistake.
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IHS
Guest
The Temple has been rebuilt. We are that Temple. God lived and dwells in every believer.We have been restored by the Blood of the Paschal Lamb,the Lord Jesus Christ. You mentioned that christians dont obey the 10 commandments. The law is our schoolmaster. The law cannot save anyone because no one can keep it. The law only points out our sins and why we need a savior. St. Paul said I would not have known sin if it were not for the law. Our sins can only be washed away by no one other than the Lord Jesus Christ. It very simple. There is no other way to the Father.
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Valke2
Guest
Those explanations don’t cut it in Judaism. And I neve said the law can save anyone. It can, however, help one to live a righteous life. And it is a covenantal obligation of my people. It is not a question of being “saved”. Jews have their own opinons of St. Paul and what he said and did. IMO, many gates, one destination. It is a central belief of Judaism that one need not be a Jew to have a share in the world to come, which is why we don’t spend a lot of time trying to tell people that their religion is wrong.
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tequilamac
Guest
so if it’s all okay, then, valke, what is the point or advantge to being a Jew? Which is actually avery good question. Perhaps instead of explaining what is wrong with religions, perhaps people should come to CAF and tell us what advantage Islam and Jews have over Catholics? What do you have to offer that we do not already have? Why would a person for instance want to give up Catholicism and become a Jew or a Muslim? What is the point?
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Valke2
Guest
I don’t know why anyone would abandon their faith to take up another one. I’m sure the reasons are varied. I can give reasons why Judaism is for me. I don’t think of it as an “advantage over other religions.” IN general, being a jew is harder. It is a demanding religion, requiring a fair amount of study and many restrictions on how to live in this world. The advantage is that it requires a lot of study and we get to implement our belief in GOd in all our actions througout the day.
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tequilamac
Guest
Why is being a Jew harder? Harder than what?
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Valke2
Guest
Harder, in the sense that there are more commandments that must be incorporated in the day to day acts of a jew. It is a religion that requires one to study in order to understand. I’m not saying that all jews do this, but that they are supposed to. It explains, in my opinion, why judaism has never been a mass religion. It just isn’t set up that way.
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IHS
Guest
The Law reveals the character of God. It points out our sins and why we need a Savior.There isn,t a single good thing you can do to get into heaven. Jesus did it ALL. Your salvation comes only from His mercy and grace. That is why God sent His only Son the Lord Jesus Christ to die for you so that your sins can be forgiven. There is no other gate,the only gate is through Jesus Christ. No one can go to the Father but through the Son. Do not be decieved. Jesus is the Way , The Truth,and the Life.
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Valke2
Guest
Well, as Isaiah says, His glory fills the entire world. WIth the Temple there was the apparent paradox of Hashem’s presence being in the holy of holies and at the same time being everywhere. But you can’t have great religion without a little paradox!That answers the question very nicely
Just one thing - “where” is the Glory considered to be, given the lack of the Temple ?TY.
You can pm me if you think that is preferable #
THere’s a teaching that says when the Jews wandered in the desert for 40 years, they would follow the pillar of smoke, and when the pillar stopped moving, the people of Israel would make camp and worship God, for that is where His presenced dwelled. ANd when it moved again, they would follow. This went on for 40 years. Why? TO teach us that all places are holy. That God can be anywhere.
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IHS
Guest
You have heard the Truth and the TRUTH will set you free. You will be without excuse on judgement day. Your mouth will be stopped.
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tequilamac
Guest
God can be anywhere you say. Well…
Does that include the indwelling of God the Holy Spirit in the temple of the human being, Valke? Or is it just wisps of smoke in the desert?
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