Why Jews don't need to be saved

[Valke2]

There is a misconception among many people that Judaism teaches that we are redeemed by obeying the commandments – through our deeds and acts. But this is not the case.

We were redeemed at Mt. Sinai when God gave us the Torah. Our obeying the mitzvot/commandments through accepting Torah is our RESPONSE to the redemption. It is how we express our relationship with God.

When a missionary attempts to convince a Jew that he or she needs to accept Jesus in order to be saved, they are essentially offering us a gift we have already received. And they are asking us to give up our relationship with God, which we express through the obeying of His Commandments. Not a good deal for us.

 

[Atreyu]

So what happens if you break one of those Commandments, like if you murder someone for example? Are you then stuffed?

By the way, do you believe in the afterlife?

 

[TimOliv]

There is a misconception among many people that Judaism teaches that we are redeemed by obeying the commandments – through our deeds and acts. But this is not the case.

We were redeemed at Mt. Sinai when God gave us the Torah. Our obeying the mitzvot/commandments through accepting Torah is our RESPONSE to the redemption. It is how we express our relationship with God.

When a missionary attempts to convince a Jew that he or she needs to accept Jesus in order to be saved, they are essentially offering us a gift we have already received. And they are asking us to give up our relationship with God, which we express through the obeying of His Commandments. Not a good deal for us.

But from a Christian point of view, baptism is necessary for salvation. All Christian denominations can pretty much agree that you need Jesus to be saved, however, churches like the Catholic Church are willing to concede that failure for the Jewish people to accept Jesus may not necessarily exclude them from the Kingdom.

 

[Fidelis]

There is a misconception among many people that Judaism teaches that we are redeemed by obeying the commandments – through our deeds and acts. But this is not the case.

We were redeemed at Mt. Sinai when God gave us the Torah. Our obeying the mitzvot/commandments through accepting Torah is our RESPONSE to the redemption. It is how we express our relationship with God.

When a missionary attempts to convince a Jew that he or she needs to accept Jesus in order to be saved, they are essentially offering us a gift we have already received. And they are asking us to give up our relationship with God, which we express through the obeying of His Commandments. Not a good deal for us.

Welcome to the CA Forums, Valke2 - Peace be with you:

The first thing to do is to make sure we are meaning the same thing when we speak of being “saved.”

**What does it mean to a Jew to be saved?

What do Jews believe they are being saved from and for?

What is the Jewish concept of the afterlife?

Where do these beliefs come from – the Tanakh or later authoritative writings? Can you cite some of these?

Are these beliefs universally held, or is there a consensus among different branchs of Judaism?**

It does no good to discuss these things unless we are speaking the same language from the start, and we are discussing “official” or at least substantially consensus views of the religion in question, not just an individual’s opinion, or the views of a minority sect. That is why Catholicism is easy to defend, by the way – we have One Church with the Catechism and the Scriptures. Conversely, that is why Protestantism is so frustrating to pin down – you have the Scriptures, but with (at least) 33,824 interpretations.

 

[Valke2]

So what happens if you break one of those Commandments, like if you murder someone for example? Are you then stuffed?

By the way, do you believe in the afterlife?

Well, first, you are still subject to the justice of the Court’s obviously. The Jewish perspective on the afterlife varies greatly and, on the whole, we are more concerned and place more emphasis on our actions in the hear and now. Generally, we believe we will be judged on our acts in the hereafter and treated accordingly. But we don’t really believe in an either/or solution, as in you either are good enough for heaven or you are bad enough for hell.

 

[Valke2]

Welcome to the CA Forums, Valke2 - Peace be with you:

The first thing to do is to make sure we are meaning the same thing when we speak of being “saved.”

**What does it mean to a Jew to be saved?

What do Jews believe they are being saved from** and for?

What is the Jewish concept of the afterlife?

Where do these beliefs come from – the Tanakh or later authoritative writings? Can you cite some of these?

Are these beliefs universally held, or is there a consensus among different branchs of Judaism?

It does no good to discuss these things unless we are speaking the same language from the start, and we are discussing “official” or at least substantially consensus views of the religion in question, not just an individual’s opinion, or the views of a minority sect. That is why Catholicism is easy to defend, by the way – we have One Church with the Catechism and the Scriptures. Conversely, that is why Protestantism is so frustrating to pin down – you have the Scriptures, but with (at least) 33,824 interpretations.

Addressing the last part of your post first, you are absolutely correct in pointing out it is a mistake to think that most positions are those embraced by the entire jewish community. We have different beliefs and even within the same “movement,” opinions on many things can differ from rabbi to rabbi. A lot is based on community standards. I am a Conservative Jew and I try to point out when something I post does is not necessarily followed by Orthodox Jews. One of the things I appreciate about Judaism is the pluralistic approach that we have traditionally taken toward our religion. Many non jews and jews alike would be surprised to learn that our greatest sages often disagreed with each other over major doctrinal issues as well as specific areas of Jewish Law.

Ok. Regarding “being saved.”: The closest thing I can think of is to equate being saved with being redeemed. Jews are not concerned with “being saved” because we believe we have already “been redeemed.”

 

[Valke2]

But from a Christian point of view, baptism is necessary for salvation. All Christian denominations can pretty much agree that you need Jesus to be saved, however, churches like the Catholic Church are willing to concede that failure for the Jewish people to accept Jesus may not necessarily exclude them from the Kingdom.

But what I don’t understand is that, if the Church recognizes that our covenant with God is ongoing and valid, then why should it concern itself with trying to have us accept Jesus?

 

[jAlex]

But we don’t really believe in an either/or solution, as in you either are good enough for heaven or you are bad enough for hell.

We do not believe in such a thing either. From Christianity’s perspective nobody is good enough for Heaven.
It’s trough God’s mercy and trough repentance that one migth be saved.

Alex.

 

[jAlex]

But what I don’t understand is that, if the Church recognizes that our covenant with God is ongoing and valid, then why should it concern itself with trying to have us accept Jesus?

I believe the reason it’s pretty simple : we believe that Jesus is the Messiah and - if you put yourself in our place for a minute - if you know who Messiah is, and then look at a somebody who is still looking/did not recognize Him, what would you do? I doubt you will be silent…

Alex.

 

[Damascus]

There is a misconception among many people that Judaism teaches that we are redeemed by obeying the commandments – through our deeds and acts. But this is not the case.

We were redeemed at Mt. Sinai when God gave us the Torah. Our obeying the mitzvot/commandments through accepting Torah is our RESPONSE to the redemption. It is how we express our relationship with God.

When a missionary attempts to convince a Jew that he or she needs to accept Jesus in order to be saved, they are essentially offering us a gift we have already received. And they are asking us to give up our relationship with God, which we express through the obeying of His Commandments. Not a good deal for us.

Hello Valke!

As a Catholic I must say I did not know that Catholics were currently making any type of missionary attempts to convert the Jewish people.
Is this the case? It seems contrary to the Papal Documents to do so, since we hold that the promise God made to the Jewish people stands.
As a side note, and off-topic (forgive me) I am reading a very interesting book that I highly reccomend to all Catholics and any others interested in the topic-

The Jewish Roots of Christian Liturgy
Edited by Eugene J. Fisher
by Sophia Cavaletti
ISBN 0-8091-3132-3

This is a very informative book and I am half way through it.

If I may Quote from it on page one-

John Paul II, in an address to representatives of Catholic Bishops’ Confrences gathered from around the world in March of 1982 to assess the progress made in Christian-Jewish dialogue, stated:

Our common spiritual heritage (with Jews) is considerable. Help in better understanding certain aspects of the church’s life can be gained by taking an inventory of that heritage, and also by taking into account the faith and the life of the Jewish people as professed and lived now as well. This is the case with the liturgy. Its roots have still to be more deeply traced and above all need to be better known and appreciated by the faithful.

The Holy Father, of happy memory is my guide here. I have a strong desire to understand and know better the Jewish faith, its rituals and customs. I deeply respect and admire the Jewish people and am learning more each day (time permitting) about the rich faith of the Jewish people.

Sorry for the long post. Sorry it is a bit off-topic. But, I really think all faith traditions should investigate the faith of the Jewish people.

 

[Valke2]

I believe the reason it’s pretty simple : we believe that Jesus is the Messiah and - if you put yourself in our place for a minute - if you know who Messiah is, and then look at a somebody who is still looking/did not recognize Him, what would you do? I doubt you will be silent…

Alex.

But that assumes that only by accepting Jesus as Messiah can a jew be saved. I thought that the Church recognizes that we can are redeemed through our existing covenant with God. In Judaism, we recognize that Gentiles can have a share in the world to come, which is why we are not big on missionizing/converting. So I would think if Christians believe that Jews can have a share in heaven through their existing covenent, they would also not put a lot of energy into missionizing jews.

 

[Damascus]

So what happens if you break one of those Commandments, like if you murder someone for example? Are you then stuffed?

By the way, do you believe in the afterlife?

I have heard of stuffed peppers, stuffed animals and the like, but am I remiss in not having heard this terminology in regard to faith issues?

 

[Valke2]

Hello Valke!

As a Catholic I must say I did not know that Catholics were currently making any type of missionary attempts to convert the Jewish people.
Is this the case? It seems contrary to the Papal Documents to do so, since we hold that the promise God made to the Jewish people stands.
As a side note, and off-topic (forgive me) I am reading a very interesting book that I highly reccomend to all Catholics and any others interested in the topic-

The Jewish Roots of Christian Liturgy
Edited by Eugene J. Fisher
by Sophia Cavaletti
ISBN 0-8091-3132-3

This is a very informative book and I am half way through it.

If I may Quote from it on page one-

John Paul II, in an address to representatives of Catholic Bishops’ Confrences gathered from around the world in March of 1982 to assess the progress made in Christian-Jewish dialogue, stated:

Our common spiritual heritage (with Jews) is considerable. Help in better understanding certain aspects of the church’s life can be gained by taking an inventory of that heritage, and also by taking into account the faith and the life of the Jewish people as professed and lived now as well. This is the case with the liturgy. Its roots have still to be more deeply traced and above all need to be better known and appreciated by the faithful.

The Holy Father, of happy memory is my guide here. I have a strong desire to understand and know better the Jewish faith, its rituals and customs. I deeply respect and admire the Jewish people and am learning more each day (time permitting) about the rich faith of the Jewish people.

Sorry for the long post. Sorry it is a bit off-topic. But, I really think all faith traditions should investigate the faith of the Jewish people.

Actually, you make an excellent point. I really have no idea if the Church engages in such missionizing and you your answers supports what I would think the Church’s position would be.

 

[Evan]

The church does not target Jews in it’s missionary efforts, it targets all non-Catholics. Jews are among that number, but are not specifically targeted. We do pray for the conversion of the Jews in the Divine Office.

The reason for proposing that Jews and anyone else come home to the Catholic Church is that it holds all truth. The Jewish covenant is not as perfect as the covenant offered by the Messiah so, although the Mosaic covenant is still intact, a more perfect convenant is available.

 

[Valke2]

The church does not target Jews in it’s missionary efforts, it targets all non-Catholics. Jews are among that number, but are not specifically targeted. We do pray for the conversion of the Jews in the Divine Office.

The reason for proposing that Jews and anyone else come home to the Catholic Church is that it holds all truth. The Jewish covenant is not as perfect as the covenant offered by the Messiah so, although the Mosaic covenant is still intact, a more perfect convenant is available.

How can the Mosaic Covenant, as you call it, be less perfect? I’m not sure that makes theological sense? God made a promise, which is part of the covenant. Is that promise less perfect than the one Jesus made?

 

[jAlex]

But that assumes that only by accepting Jesus as Messiah can a jew be saved. I thought that the Church recognizes that we can are redeemed through our existing covenant with God. In Judaism, we recognize that Gentiles can have a share in the world to come, which is why we are not big on missionizing/converting. So I would think if Christians believe that Jews can have a share in heaven through their existing covenent, they would also not put a lot of energy into missionizing jews.

Hi Valke,
I’m not aware of any attempts for missionizing Jews nowadays. At least not in the Catholic Church… Are there any such cases? (and I am not talking about individual level conversions … )
I am not very knowledgeable into this subject, but I will do some reaseach on it.

Alex.

 

[Valke2]

Hi Valke,
I’m not aware of any attempts for missionizing Jews nowadays. At least not in the Catholic Church… Are there any such cases? (and I am not talking about individual level conversions … )
I am not very knowledgeable into this subject, but I will do some reaseach on it.

Alex.

Someone else said that earlier, Alex. And I acknowledged that it was a good point and that I may have just assumed that teh Church engaged in such missionizing. If you are correct, and I have no reason to assume you are not, it is something for me to keep in mind and it would lead me to this question…
While it is true that evangelical Christians give financial and moral support to Israel, it seems to me that pursuing a relationship with the Catholic Church (or reinforcing it) makes more sense in some ways.

 

[Fidelis]

Ok. Regarding “being saved.”: The closest thing I can think of is to equate being saved with being redeemed. Jews are not concerned with “being saved” because we believe we have already “been redeemed.”

Valke2 - Peace be with you:
This doesn’t exactly answer the question and, in fact, further muddles the situation as you have introduced the additional undefined term “redemption.” I can tell you what to be “saved” and “redeemed” means from a Christian perspective, but to make sure we are talking about the same thing, I need to know what Jews mean when they use these terms, and where they get these ideas from.

For example, here is what Catholics mean by these terms, along with references to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) which in turn tell you from where in Scripture and Church teachings they derive:

SALVATION: The forgiveness of sins and restoration of friendship with God, which can be done by God alone (CCC 169).

REDEEMER/REDEMPTION: Jesus Christ, redeemer of mankind. Christ paid the price of his own sacrificial death on the cross to ransom us, to set us free from the slavery of sin, thus achieving our redemption. (571, 601; cf. 517, 1372).

HEAVEN: Eternal life with God; communion of life and love with the Trinity and all the blessed. Heaven is the state of supreme and definitive happiness, the goal of the deepest longings of humanity (1023).

HELL: The state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed, reserved for those who refuse by their own free choice to believe and be converted from sin, even to the end of their lives (1033).
usccb.org/catechism/text/index.htm

So again, how would you answer, specifcally, these questions?

**What does it mean to a Jew to be saved?

What do Jews believe they are being saved *from *and for?

What is the Jewish concept of the afterlife?

Where do these beliefs come from – the Tanakh or later authoritative writings? Can you cite some of these?**

Then we can talk!

 

[Damascus]

Everyone here is familliar with the Papal document Nostra Aetate?

Anyway, at one time (not that long ago) the was a religious congregation founded in the mid-ninteenth century with the declared goal of converting the Jews into Christians. The name was “Our Lady of Sion”.

Now, after the Holocaust, the congregation became a force in the Church fostering understanding and dialouge with Jews and Judaism.

After the Second Vatican Council SIDIC was founded in 1967.

This stands for Service International de Documentation Judeo-Chretienne (published in Rome) in English and French- it is a journal that documents relations between us.

It would be of great benefit for us all to pray for each other and remain in harmony and peace with each other. IMHO.

 

[Damascus]

How can the Mosaic Covenant, as you call it, be less perfect? I’m not sure that makes theological sense? God made a promise, which is part of the covenant. Is that promise less perfect than the one Jesus made?

The comparision is silly. The bottom line is that God’s promise trumps speculation.

Of course, a Christian is desireous of all to know and love Jesus the way we know and love him. This is not a bad thing to wish for anyone. But, I think that if we try to claim that “our covenant is better than your covenant” stuff- we have crossed the line and now have gone too far.
This is not appropriate at all in regard to the Jewish people, IMHO.