Why Jews don't need to be saved

[Valke2]

Valke2 - Peace be with you:
This doesn’t exactly answer the question and, in fact, further muddles the situation as you have introduced the additional undefined term “redemption.” I can tell you what to be “saved” and “redeemed” means from a Christian perspective, but to make sure we are talking about the same thing, I need to know what Jews mean when they use these terms, and where they get these ideas from.

For example, here is what Catholics mean by these terms, along with references to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) which in turn tell you from where in Scripture and Church teachings they derive:

So again, how would you answer, specifcally, these questions?

What does it mean to a Jew to be saved?

What do Jews believe they are being saved *from *and for?

What is the Jewish concept of the afterlife?

Where do these beliefs come from – the Tanakh or later authoritative writings? Can you cite some of these?

Then we can talk!

Again, we don’t really make an issue of being ‘saved’. It was done for us when Hashem gave us the Torah. As I stated earlier, our response to being “saved” at Sinai was to accept Torah and obey the commandments. It is how we express our relationship with God. It is not a means to earn salvation.

The Jewish concept of an afterlife is complicated and varies. But essentially, we believe that if we accept Torah and try to live by its commandments, we will receive a share in the world to come. We also believe that righteous non-jews will also receive the same share.

most of the writings regarding an afterlife are in the Talmud, based on the writings of the prophets. There is not a lot of dogma about the afterlife, other than that it exists, and there’s a great deal of freedom for personal opinion in this area. An Orthodox Jew may believe in a similar type of heaven as a Christian or he may believe in reincarnation, or that we will all be resurrected with the coming of the Messiah. I could find you Talmudic references and responsa for both views. As for the wicked, some believe the souls are destryoed, others believe they are tortured by demons that thier own actions create. For references in Torah regarding the afterlife, see Gen. 25:8; 25:17; 35:29; 49:33; Deut. 32:50

These are described in the Judaism 101 site.

 

[Hegesippus]

The Church teaches that anyone who gets to heaven gets there by the merits of Jesus Christ and His redemptive work, and that no one is saved through the covenant you are referring to.

 

[jAlex]

Again, we don’t really make an issue of being ‘saved’. It was done for us when Hashem gave us the Torah. As I stated earlier, our response to being “saved” at Sinai was to accept Torah and obey the commandments. It is how we express our relationship with God. It is not a means to earn salvation.

Whave a different understanding of what “salvation” means.
As Catholics we believe that trough Adam’s disobedience the world became corrupt and there is nothing we could do, by ourselves, to atone for sins. This is one of the reasons Christ gived Himself to be crucified - to atone for our sins, because only a sinless person could perfecly “repay”/atone for our disobedience.
As Catholics, trough the Sacraments (most notably the Eucharist) , we share in His atonement, and as long as we keep His commandments we stand a chance to be saved ( or redeemed, or made worthy to stand in God’s presence ).
We do not consider that merely being part of the Catholic Church will automatically guarantee our savation - in this we differ from Protestants. It is a lifelong struggle to try to keep God’s commendments. It is similar to Jewish people trying to keep their part of the covenant, and in a way to “earn” our salvation - altough this is not the precise term - it’s more like God and man cooperating: He gives the Grace and we struggle to do His will.

I think one thing worth to be noted is the Catholic Church does not consider whomever is not Catholic doomed!
Practically a pious Jew can have more chances to be saved (in the sense that he will be made worthy to stand in God’s presence) than a non-practicing Catholic for example. The Church does not pronounce anybody as “saved” or “not saved” - that’s God’s prerogative - but we believe that being part of the Catholic Church gives us the proper way to worship God and to commune with Him trough Sacraments.

I’m not sure if I am making sense to you, but it’s just a glimpse in what I think salvation means… others migth want to articulate this better then I did.

Thanks,
Alex.

 

[Damascus]

The Church teaches that anyone who gets to heaven gets there by the merits of Jesus Christ and His redemptive work, and that no one is saved through the covenant you are referring to.

Please read the CCC 839&840 and the Nostra aetate.

Are you telling us that they are not allowed into heaven per the Catholic Church?

 

[Damascus]

What salvation means to us and whether or not Jews have the same concept is irrelevant.

We are adopted children of God. Our need for salvation and our beliefs apply to us.

The Jewish people are not in our situation. They came first. Their relationship with God is much different than ours is.

We have no right to interfere with Jewish people and their faith. IMHO.

As I said before, it is understandable that we want to - but it is not something we should feel they must or have to do, or that they are lacking in any way.

Unless something has radically changed overnight and there has been a new teaching on this matter- I stand by my comments.

 

[Hegesippus]

Please read the CCC 839&840 and the Nostra aetate.

Are you telling us that they are not allowed into heaven per the Catholic Church?

I read both of your recommended readings and in both of them state that the Jewish people have a special place in God’s heart and they are the chosen people. None the less that does not contradict Church DOGMA that There is no salvation outside the Church. Read CCC 846 where it states " all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Chruch which is his Body" I am not saying you have to be a visible member of the Catholic Church, but I am saying that if you get to heaven it is because of the merits of Christ and His Church. Obedience to the Old Covenant does not lead to salvation, anyone that willfully rejects Christ or His Church do not have a share in salvation.

 

[Hegesippus]

What salvation means to us and whether or not Jews have the same concept is irrelevant.

We are adopted children of God. Our need for salvation and our beliefs apply to us.

The Jewish people are not in our situation. They came first. Their relationship with God is much different than ours is.

We have no right to interfere with Jewish people and their faith. IMHO.

As I said before, it is understandable that we want to - but it is not something we should feel they must or have to do, or that they are lacking in any way.

Unless something has radically changed overnight and there has been a new teaching on this matter- I stand by my comments.

We are to preach the Gospel to all peoples, Jews, Muslims, Protestants. If the Early Christians had your approach they would have just preached to the Gentiles, but they did not. And the people to first receive the message of the Gospel were God’s chosen people. Christ’s words at the end of Matthew, " Go, therefore, make disciples of all the nations…" The Jews are in need of a savior just as much as you and me.

 

[Fidelis]

Again, we don’t really make an issue of being ‘saved’. It was done for us when Hashem gave us the Torah. As I stated earlier, our response to being “saved” at Sinai was to accept Torah and obey the commandments. It is how we express our relationship with God. It is not a means to earn salvation.

The Jewish concept of an afterlife is complicated and varies. But essentially, we believe that if we accept Torah and try to live by its commandments, we will receive a share in the world to come. We also believe that righteous non-jews will also receive the same share.

most of the writings regarding an afterlife are in the Talmud, based on the writings of the prophets. There is not a lot of dogma about the afterlife, other than that it exists, and there’s a great deal of freedom for personal opinion in this area. An Orthodox Jew may believe in a similar type of heaven as a Christian or he may believe in reincarnation, or that we will all be resurrected with the coming of the Messiah. I could find you Talmudic references and responsa for both views. As for the wicked, some believe the souls are destryoed, others believe they are tortured by demons that thier own actions create. For references in Torah regarding the afterlife, see Gen. 25:8; 25:17; 35:29; 49:33; Deut. 32:50

Valke2 - Peace be with you.

Since I haven’t got any definite answers to my questions, my only conclusion can be that Jewish theology as you understand it does not have any direct correspondence to Christianity regarding these terms or concepts. In other words, we cannot speak of salvation, heaven, or redemption with each other with the understanding that we are even talking about the same thing. There’s nothing wrong with that; in fact it’s helpful to know.

That being the case, however, it makes it all the more clear that there is in fact a basis, if not a necessity, for Christians to speak to Jews about these things as we understand them (notice I didn’t say prosyltize or hit them over the head with them). If we cannot even agree that we are talking about the same things when we use these terms, in the interest of Truth – and we are talking about eternal Truth, here – we would be remiss, if not hateful, if we do NOT share with you our understanding of the Gospel.

 

[Walking_Home]

Wednesday’s audience
Pope Benedict XVI

zenit.org/english/

Code: ZE06031502

Date: 2006-03-15

Church, Presence of Christ Among Men

"The Individualist Jesus Is a Fantasy

---

By choosing the Twelve, introducing them into a communion of life with him and making them sharers in the same mission of announcing the Kingdom with words and deeds (cf. Mark 6:7-13; Matthew 10:5-8; Luke 9:1-6; 6:13), Jesus wants to say that the definitive time has arrived; the time for rebuilding God’s people, the people of the 12 tribes, which is now converted into a universal people, his Church.

By their mere existence, the Twelve – called from different backgrounds – have become a summons to all Israel to conversion and to allow themselves to be reunited in a new covenant, full and perfect accomplishment of the old. By entrusting to them the task of celebrating his memorial in the Supper, before his passion, Jesus shows that he wanted to transfer to the entire community, in the person of its heads, the commandment of being a sign and instrument of the eschatological assembly begun by him.

 

[Damascus]

We are to preach the Gospel to all peoples, Jews, Muslims, Protestants. If the Early Christians had your approach they would have just preached to the Gentiles, but they did not. And the people to first receive the message of the Gospel were God’s chosen people. Christ’s words at the end of Matthew, " Go, therefore, make disciples of all the nations…" The Jews are in need of a savior just as much as you and me.

Maybe I was unclear somehow.

I am not saying that one can not preach the Gospel to all peoples.

I am saying something else. Jews and Muslims are a seperate issue and not comparable to Protestants.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

Please read this with prayerful consideration and tell me what I must have missed in this document.

 

[Damascus]

I read both of your recommended readings and in both of them state that the Jewish people have a special place in God’s heart and they are the chosen people. None the less that does not contradict Church DOGMA that There is no salvation outside the Church. Read CCC 846 where it states " all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Chruch which is his Body" I am not saying you have to be a visible member of the Catholic Church, but I am saying that if you get to heaven it is because of the merits of Christ and His Church. Obedience to the Old Covenant does not lead to salvation, anyone that willfully rejects Christ or His Church do not have a share in salvation.

Once again, are you saying that the Jewish person can not enter Heaven per the Catholic Church?
Citations please.
“Willfully rejects” only applies to those who have been taught the full Gospel and then rejected it.
How are we going to assume that a Jewish person has had that full Gospel?
Granted, the longer a Jewish person stays on at CAF or does get the full Gospel from the Catholic Church in some way - that would change things a bit.

 

[Hegesippus]

Maybe I was unclear somehow.

I am not saying that one can not preach the Gospel to all peoples.

I am saying something else. Jews and Muslims are a seperate issue and not comparable to Protestants.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

Please read this with prayerful consideration and tell me what I must have missed in this document.

I have read the document twice now and found nothing in it that supports your claims that Church is not necessary for salvation or that we are not supposed to preach the Gospel to them and pray for their conversion. So I ask you what have I missed in this document. "Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.(4)
It is, therefore, the burden of the Church’s preaching to proclaim the cross of Christ as the sign of God’s all-embracing love and as the fountain from which every grace flows.

 

[sterryfamily]

Please read the CCC 839&840 and the Nostra aetate.

Are you telling us that they are not allowed into heaven per the Catholic Church?

CCC 839& 840 only deal with our relationship with Jews and their heritage as the chosen people of God in the old covenant. If you go a little further, 846&847 deal with salvation and the only exception to salvation outside of Christ’s Church are for those who, “through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and His Church.”

How does failure to learn about, or apathy toward, Christ’s Church equate to ,“no fault of their own”?

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Valke2:

There is a misconception among many people that Judaism teaches that we are redeemed by obeying the commandments – through our deeds and acts. But this is not the case.

We were redeemed at Mt. Sinai when God gave us the Torah. Our obeying the mitzvot/commandments through accepting Torah is our RESPONSE to the redemption. It is how we express our relationship with God.

Hmm…

I’m not sure that I accept the way you’re phrasing this. How did ma’amad Har Sinai (the revelation at Mt. Sinai & the acceptance of the Torah there) constitute a redemptive act? What sources can you cite to support this view?

The whole emphasis of Judaism is doing the Torah’s precepts. Our cry at Mt. Sinai was, “We will do and we will hear.” (Exodus 24:7) Deuteronomy 30:14 tells us that:

But the word is very nigh unto you, in your mouth, and in your heart, that you may do it."

Deuteronomy 32:46-47 tells us that:

…'Set your heart unto all the words wherewith I testify against you this day; that you may charge your children therewith to observe to do all the words of this Torah. For it is no vain thing for you; because it is your life…

Merely being present at Mt. Sinai was not, in & of itself, a redemptive act, at least not in the Christian sense.

Be well!

ssv

 

[Hegesippus]

Once again, are you saying that the Jewish person can not enter Heaven per the Catholic Church?
Citations please.
“Willfully rejects” only applies to those who have been taught the full Gospel and then rejected it.
How are we going to assume that a Jewish person has had that full Gospel?
Granted, the longer a Jewish person stays on at CAF or does get the full Gospel from the Catholic Church in some way - that would change things a bit.

I do not understand your positions. Are you stating that those who are saved are somehow saved outside the merits of Christ and His Church? And that the Jews are somehow off limits when it comes to hope for their conversion. I know “willful rejects” refers to those who have made conscious decision about the Gospel that is why I brought it up. If a Jew, or anyone for that matter, rejects Christ they can have no share in salvation. This implies they know about the truth of the Gospel, but still refuse to accept in their heart. Being obediant to the old Covenant does nothing in term of salvation since Christ has already come. It sounds like you ascribe to a dual-covenant theology.

 

[jAlex]

How are we going to assume that a Jewish person has had that full Gospel?
Granted, the longer a Jewish person stays on at CAF or does get the full Gospel from the Catholic Church in some way - that would change things a bit.

Well there are Protestants on this forum, with more knowledge of the NT and still they are not convinced, even if they have the full Gospel …
It takes more than simply reading trough the Scripture and - tadaaa ! you are converted !.. (just kidding… no intent of offending anybody)
God’s help and presonal example is what does it… but it’s more God’s help coz the personal example won’t do it in my case…

Alex.

 

[Damascus]

Okay. I did not write this document. SO blame JPII then, and not ME.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_07121990_redemptoris-missio_en.html

 

[Damascus]

Okay- I admit the above post of mine was worded to get everyone to at least look at the phasing and careful choice of words used in that document that leave room for interpretation on the issues here. It is very confusing to say the least. I am not alone. see the link below and tell me what you think of that. Personally, I am at a loss as to why JPII made many comments (not all official documents- but many many comments in public address) that were downright confusing and frankly, if I am going to get jumped on like this when JPII said and did the most confusing things (Koran kissing) and I still try to follow the Church as a loyal Papist - then get harrased by “brothers” in Christ- I give up. It is not clear by any stretch of the imagination.

post-gazette.com/nation/20020814catholicsjews0814p4.asp

Granted, I used the above post to illustrate that this is confusing and even begs the question amoung Catholics how to view this issue.

 

[TimOliv]

But what I don’t understand is that, if the Church recognizes that our covenant with God is ongoing and valid, then why should it concern itself with trying to have us accept Jesus?

Because the church mandates that baptism is necessary for salvation. And incidentally, the Catholic Church does not actively try to convert Jews. That is why the Catholic Church focuses its missionary efforts in Asia and Africa.

Afterall, there’s pagans that need a baptizin…

 

[Hegesippus]

Okay. I did not write this document. SO blame JPII then, and not ME.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_07121990_redemptoris-missio_en.html

Please point us to your refernce point in the document, from browsing, it appears that Christ is the savior of all and our mission is to evangelize the world. For claritys sake what are your positions you are arguing for?