Why Jews don't need to be saved

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Jesus never required the abolishment of the Commandments. I don’t know where you got that idea. He Himself was under the law and was a truly observant Jew. When I go to confession, I use the ten commandments as my guide to conscience. Jesus never abolished the commandments. What he did was fulfill those commandments with empathy. God before Christ was not revealed as an empathetic God. He was the God of the law- the commandments. One kept the commandments or else. With Christ, God empathises with human weakness and folly. He becomes a God in the New testament- still upholding the law and the commandments- but it is tempered with mercy, charity, compassion and forgiveness. Whoever said Jesus told the Jews to abandon the Torah? He upheld the Torah, but made it clear that transgressions were part of the human condition and humans needed to be treated with dignity, respect and charity. This is why yes, he would pick corn on the Sabbath- if people needed to eat. Or heal on the Sabbath if someone was sick. What is the better thing? To let someone suffer terribly a suffering that could easily be alleviated just because the alleviation needs to be done on the Sabbath? Jesus came to tell us that God does not put the law, the Torah, the commandments ahead of the dire needs of his people, or ahead of mercy. He wants us to observe the Sabbath, but not if by observing the Sabbath we allow someone to suffer needlessly. This is just one example of the difference.
“The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness’ sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.” Isaiah 42:21

Thats what Jesus did , he surely did not destroy the Law but magnified it by restoring it to it’s purity and by showing the spirit of the Law.
 
That link is to a jewish messainac perspective. I didn’t read it and I know they try to seperate themselves from Jews for Jesus, but I personally would not look to that link for a jewish perspective.
the point is that they showed Jewish scriptures, not Christian ones, about the Messiah.
you have the right not to read it, but Jewish scriptures will stay there for those who want to know the different expectations of Jews regarding the Messiah. You can stick to one view but this will not invalidate other views.
 
No. I can’t explain that. That is why I think something must be missing from the Gospels. Because Jews would not call for the death of someone for saying they were the son of God

. they said he blasphemed for equalling himself to God.“I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” “We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, **because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” **

“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I AM!” At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself
Keep in mind, however, the jewish messiah is not anything like a God in flesh. He is a man and not divine.
 
Isaiah 48:16-(Jewish Publication Society)
Come ye near unto Me, hear ye this: From the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time that it was, there am I; and now the L-rd GOD hath sent me, and His spirit.

Isaiah 9: 6
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called “Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”

Isaiah 40:3A voice cries:
"In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD,
make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Psalms 45:7you love righteousness and hate wickedness.
Therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness above your fellows;

I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.

[Daniel 7:13]

“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and of supplication; then they will look on Me whom they have pierced; they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.”

How do Jews interpret all these?
 
No. I can’t explain that. That is why I think something must be missing from the Gospels. Because Jews would not call for the death of someone for saying they were the son of God. Keep in mind, however, the jewish messiah is not anything like a God in flesh. He is a man and not divine. Also, there really is nothing in Christian scripture that definitevly shows that Jesus publicaly claimed he was the messiah, so it is really incorrect to say the Jews rejected him. At most any rejection would have been passive. more later. gotta run.
Valke-
Code:
There is a great Christmas hymn.
O holy night, the stars are brightly shining, it is the night of the dear savior’s birth. Long lay the world in sin and darkness pining, until he came and the soul felt it’s worth. The thrill of hope etc. etc.

The key here Valke is the statement- and the soul felt it’s worth. More than anything else, this sums up christianity for me. For once, the human soul feels it’s worth to God. With Islam and Judaism, we hear of God’s worth to us. But with Christ, we have value as well. To God. All the difference in the world. Love, dignity respect becomes a two way street.
 
Jesus never required the abolishment of the Commandments. I don’t know where you got that idea. He Himself was under the law and was a truly observant Jew. When I go to confession, I use the ten commandments as my guide to conscience. Jesus never abolished the commandments. What he did was fulfill those commandments with empathy. God before Christ was not revealed as an empathetic God. He was the God of the law- the commandments. One kept the commandments or else. With Christ, God empathises with human weakness and folly. He becomes a God in the New testament- still upholding the law and the commandments- but it is tempered with mercy, charity, compassion and forgiveness. Whoever said Jesus told the Jews to abandon the Torah? He upheld the Torah, but made it clear that transgressions were part of the human condition and humans needed to be treated with dignity, respect and charity. This is why yes, he would pick corn on the Sabbath- if people needed to eat. Or heal on the Sabbath if someone was sick. What is the better thing? To let someone suffer terribly a suffering that could easily be alleviated just because the alleviation needs to be done on the Sabbath? Jesus came to tell us that God does not put the law, the Torah, the commandments ahead of the dire needs of his people, or ahead of mercy. He wants us to observe the Sabbath, but not if by observing the Sabbath we allow someone to suffer needlessly. This is just one example of the difference.
But the vast majority of Christians to not observe the commandments that were in place at the time of Jesus. ANd I hear over and over how he “fullfilled” the commandments (although as a Jew I believe that would be impossible).
 
But the vast majority of Christians to not observe the commandments that were in place at the time of Jesus. ANd I hear over and over how he “fullfilled” the commandments (although as a Jew I believe that would be impossible).
And picking corn if you are starving has ALWAYS been permissible in Judaism. Just as was saving a life on shabbat.
Jesus, however had his followers pick corn because they were “hungry” not starving or threatned with death from starvation. ANd he healed people who were not in danger of dying and could have been healed after the sabbath.
 
But the vast majority of Christians to not observe the commandments that were in place at the time of Jesus. ANd I hear over and over how he “fullfilled” the commandments (although as a Jew I believe that would be impossible).
Ever been to Hollywood Valke? If failure to observe the commandments reflects on the validity of God, how do you explain the countless numbers of Jews who do anything but?
Observing not the commandments is simply not a reflection on Jesus, but on us. Most Jews around here are simply not concerned with the Sabbath, or with kosher, nor do they observe any particular Jewish holiday. They are “ethnic Jews” if you will, not spiritually minded in the least. Does this make Moses and God wrong, Valke?
 
Valke-
Code:
There is a great Christmas hymn.
O holy night, the stars are brightly shining, it is the night of the dear savior’s birth. Long lay the world in sin and darkness pining, until he came and the soul felt it’s worth. The thrill of hope etc. etc.

The key here Valke is the statement- and the soul felt it’s worth. More than anything else, this sums up christianity for me. For once, the human soul feels it’s worth to God. With Islam and Judaism, we hear of God’s worth to us. But with Christ, we have value as well. To God. All the difference in the world. Love, dignity respect becomes a two way street.
I can’t speak for Islam but I don’t know why you would think that Judasim does not teach that we have value. We are created in God’s image… choose life… I have made you holy… these are all jewish teachings. As is “Love your neighbor…”
 
Ever been to Hollywood Valke? If failure to observe the commandments reflects on the validity of God, how do you explain the countless numbers of Jews who do anything but?
Observing not the commandments is simply not a reflection on Jesus, but on us. Most Jews around here are simply not concerned with the Sabbath, or with kosher, nor do they observe any particular Jewish holiday. They are “ethnic Jews” if you will, not spiritually minded in the least. Does this make Moses and God wrong, Valke?
I am not saying it reflects the validity of GOd. I’m saying it is not required of them. CHristians do not believe they need to keep the commandments that Jesus apparently kept. I wasn’t saying they are wrong for this. Just that you can’t argue that Jesus meant for us to keep the commandments, because the Church doesn’t require this.
 
And picking corn if you are starving has ALWAYS been permissible in Judaism. Just as was saving a life on shabbat.
Jesus, however had his followers pick corn because they were “hungry” not starving or threatned with death from starvation. ANd he healed people who were not in danger of dying and could have been healed after the sabbath.
But what was never permissable in Judaism and Islam and still isn’t is putting the needs of humans before God so to speak. God is all powerful, all mighty, does not need to eat, does not feel hunger or pain, He is the creator not the recipient. Jesus said see to the needs of the weak, the hungry, the ones in pain, first, then come and offer to God what is already His to begin with. But Jews and Muslims- no way. The sabbath and the law comes first as if God needs the help rather than us. What would happen to God if we fed ourselves before we attended the Sabbath? Would he faint from hunger? No. He can’t. Do you see? God cares about us. It is a two way street. We don’t just sit around and flatter God all day with how wonderful is. We do not feed Him, nor do we clothe him, nor do we create Him. Except in Jesus and in His HUMANITY. In Islam and in Judaism, man is almost lint, almost trash, almost litter. And that is apparently unacceptable to God.
 
But what was never permissable in Judaism and Islam and still isn’t is putting the needs of humans before God so to speak. God is all powerful, all mighty, does not need to eat, does not feel hunger or pain, He is the creator not the recipient. Jesus said see to the needs of the weak, the hungry, the ones in pain, first, then come and offer to God what is already His to begin with. But Jews and Muslims- no way. The sabbath and the law comes first as if God needs the help rather than us. What would happen to God if we fed ourselves before we attended the Sabbath? Would he faint from hunger? No. He can’t. Do you see? God cares about us. It is a two way street. We don’t just sit around and flatter God all day with how wonderful is. We do not feed Him, nor do we clothe him, nor do we create Him. Except in Jesus and in His HUMANITY. In Islam and in Judaism, man is almost lint, almost trash, almost litter. And that is apparently unacceptable to God.
The reality is that Judaism puts life before almost everything else. There are only three commandments that one is not permitted to break in order to save life. One is killing an innocent person, one is idolatry and the other one I can’t recall. … But even with idoltary the rabbis limited when one had to forfiet their life rahter than break the commandment to very limited situations.
 
Valke2, read this link and tell me what you think

ucgstp.org/lit/gn/gn005/gn005x03.htm
It is a long article, that’s what I think. 🙂 The idea of a new covenant magnifying the law instead of replacing it is closer to a jewish understanding. That langauge regarding the circumcision of the heart and a new covenant is interperted by jews to mean that there will come a time when the jewish people will have renewed enthusiasm for keeping the commandments. That our joy in doing so will increase. i.e., magnify.
 
And picking corn if you are starving has ALWAYS been permissible in Judaism. Just as was saving a life on shabbat.
Jesus, however had his followers pick corn because they were “hungry” not starving or threatned with death from starvation. ANd he healed people who were not in danger of dying and could have been healed after the sabbath.
“Have ye not read so much as this,” Jesus said, “what David did, when himself was an hungered, and they which were with him; how he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the shewbread, . . . which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone?” “And He said unto them, **The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.” **“Have ye not read in the law, how that on the Sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless? But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.” “The Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath.” Luke 6:3, 4; Mark 2:27, 28; Matt. 12:5, 6.

Jesus did not let the matter pass with administering a rebuke to His enemies. He declared that in their blindness they had mistaken the object of the Sabbath. He said, “**If ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.” **Matt. 12:7. Their many heartless rites could not supply the
lack of that truthful integrity and tender love which will ever characterize the true worshiper of God.

Again Christ reiterated the truth that the sacrifices were in themselves of no value. They were a means, and not an end. Their object was to direct men to the Saviour, and thus to bring them into harmony with God. It is the service of love that God values. When this is lacking, the mere round of ceremony is an offense to Him. So with the Sabbath. It was designed to bring men into communion with God; but when the mind was absorbed with wearisome rites, the object of the Sabbath was thwarted. Its mere outward observance was a mockery.

Upon another Sabbath, as Jesus entered a synagogue. He saw there a man who had a withered hand. The Pharisees watched Him, eager to see what He would do. The Saviour well knew that in healing on the Sabbath He would be regarded as a transgressor, but He did not hesitate to break down the wall of traditional requirements that barricaded the Sabbath. Jesus bade the afflicted man stand forth, and then asked, "Is it lawful to do good on the Sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill?" It was a maxim among the Jews that a failure to do good, when one had opportunity, was to do evil; to neglect to save life was to kill. Thus Jesus met the rabbis on their own ground. “But they held their peace. And when He had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, He saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.” Mark 3:4, 5

When questioned, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath days?” Jesus answered, “What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the Sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the Sabbath days.” Matt. 12:10-12.

The spies dared not answer Christ in the presence of the multitude, for fear of involving themselves in difficulty. They knew that He had spoken the truth. Rather than violate their traditions, they would leave a man to suffer, while they would relieve a brute because of the loss to the owner if it were neglected. Thus greater care was shown for a dumb animal than for man, who is made in the image of God. This illustrates the working of all false religions. They originate in man’s desire to exalt himself above God, but they result in degrading man below the brute. Every religion that wars against the sovereignty of God defrauds man of the glory which was his at the creation, and which is to be restored to him in Christ. The gospel places a high value upon humanity as the purchase of the blood of Christ, and it teaches a tender regard for the wants and woes of man. The Lord says, “I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.” Isa. 13:12.

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It is a long article, that’s what I think. 🙂 The idea of a new covenant magnifying the law instead of replacing it is closer to a jewish understanding. That langauge regarding the circumcision of the heart and a new covenant is interperted by jews to mean that there will come a time when the jewish people will have renewed enthusiasm for keeping the commandments. That our joy in doing so will increase. i.e., magnify.
i see. But the article did show at least that Jesus did not abolish the Law but he seperated between tradition and God’s commandment, and he explained the Spirit of the Law which must lead to loving God and loving the other. Everything that goes against this spirit is against the Law .
 
I am not saying it reflects the validity of GOd. I’m saying it is not required of them. CHristians do not believe they need to keep the commandments that Jesus apparently kept. I wasn’t saying they are wrong for this. Just that you can’t argue that Jesus meant for us to keep the commandments, because the Church doesn’t require this.
the Law according to Jesus is :

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.

This is what God wants.

The apostle St. Paul reminds us of this: "He who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. The commandments, ‘You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,’ and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."3
 
the Law according to Jesus is :

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.

This is what God wants.

The apostle St. Paul reminds us of this: "He who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. The commandments, ‘You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,’ and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."3
And guess where he got that little ditty from? 😉
 
And guess where he got that little ditty from? 😉
Valke- might I point out that the Palestinians are Israel’s neighbors? And today a rabbi there demanded the deaths of all palestinian males. I would think St. Paul did not get his little ditty from the Jews. Not unless the Jews are planning the deaths of their own young men as well. St. Paul’s little ditty is an expansion of the Lord’s command to love one’s enemy- a neighbor, a wife, a son, a brother. Remember, the Lord said he would bring division in the household. Something a bit different from what the rabbi has in mind, don’t you think? No I don’t think the Jews can take credit for St. Paul’s ditty.
 
Valke- might I point out that the Palestinians are Israel’s neighbors? And today a rabbi there demanded the deaths of all palestinian males. I would think St. Paul did not get his little ditty from the Jews. Not unless the Jews are planning the deaths of their own young men as well. St. Paul’s little ditty is an expansion of the Lord’s command to love one’s enemy- a neighbor, a wife, a son, a brother. Remember, the Lord said he would bring division in the household. Something a bit different from what the rabbi has in mind, don’t you think? No I don’t think the Jews can take credit for St. Paul’s ditty.
what rabbi? The “golden rule” is certainly taken from Torah. IT is considered a main cornerstone of Judaism. No jewish rabbi that I know or would want to know would have said what you posted.
 
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