Why Jews Must Accept Jesus

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Robbinson,

The teachings of the mystical branch of Judaism say that the sufferings of the Jewish people (Isaiah 53) help atone for the sin of the nations of the world.

Derech Hashem by the Ramchal can give you more info on that.

Isaiah 53 says that the suffering servant will see his descendants–his seed.

If,as you say, Jesus is this suffering servant, where is his seed? BTW the word used in the Hebrew in Is. 53 for “seed” means physical descendants, not spiritual ones (in case you were going to say that the believers in Jesus are his “seed”.)

Here is a very in-depth explanation of Isaiah 53:

messiahtruth.com/isaiah53b.html
 
As I have stated in another thread, jews and christians have been arguing over this for 1,000 years and I don’t see it getting resolved here. If you REALLY want to get into a disputation with Isaiah 53 being the central argument, let’s start a new thread. Alternatively, we can simply be happy that both jews and christians can find value and reaffirmation of their faith in the words of Isaiah.
 
Sepharad said:
Robbinson,

The teachings of the mystical branch of Judaism say that the sufferings of the Jewish people (Isaiah 53) help atone for the sin of the nations of the world.

Derech Hashem by the Ramchal can give you more info on that.

Isaiah 53 says that the suffering servant will see his descendants–his seed.

If,as you say, Jesus is this suffering servant, where is his seed? BTW the word used in the Hebrew in Is. 53 for “seed” means physical descendants, not spiritual ones (in case you were going to say that the believers in Jesus are his “seed”.)

Here is a very in-depth explanation of Isaiah 53:

messiahtruth.com/isaiah53b.html
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Sepharad. Talk about twisting yourself into a pretzel to read past the more natural reading of these verses . . But to answer your specific objection re: “seed” meaning physical descendants. A few observations.
  1. The expression “see seed” you refer to in Isaiah 53 is the only place in the Hebrew scriptures where that phrase is used - so how you can thus conclude it must mean physical descendants is an interseting question.
  2. As to the word “seed” itself - it is often used metephorically in the Hebrew scriptures - see Isaiah 1:4 - Israel a “seed” of evil doers (there are others).
  3. The Sa’adiah Gaon (recognized traditional jewish authority) applied Isaiah 53 to Jeremiah - but Jeremiah was commanded by God never to marry and never to had children! That’s a tough one to get out of I think.😊
I think I"ve given some clear reasons why the Servant can’t be Israel - any other candidates you can think of? Not to mention the fact that the book of Daniel told us when the Messiah would come - which was the time period of Jesus’ ministry (so that would make Daniel a false prophet?) - and Isaiah told us the Messiah would be rejected by his own people and become a light to the Gentile nations (Jesus came at the appointed time, was rejected by his people and through him millions upon millions of people worship the God of the Hebrew scriptures). Any other candidates? And what of Zechariah that talks of the Jewish people ultimately mourning for the one whom they pierced and then calling on the name of the Lord?

I know you say you know all of this - so, we can leave it at that - but I hope you at least recognize that your objection to Isaiah 53 hangs on a pretty tenuous analysis.

Blessings,

Brian
 
If you want to see her latest incarnation, check the new thread whch I labeled “important”. It might be an eye-opener (then again, maybe not.)

I suspect she is really Mel Gibson! 😃
 
Eden said:
I see you are still referring people here to that poor-quality website, messiahtruth.com, that tries to paint Christianity as pagan (while ignoring the fact that the same silly accusations are used against Judaism by atheists).

On the particular link above, it refers to an essay entitled the “Anti-Jewish New Testament”. :rolleyes:
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If it would make you feel better, I can certainly link to any number of sites that sound nicer, but give the SAME information.

Or, you can Google them yourself.
 
Sepharad said:
Remember not to shoot the messenger because you don’t like the message. How about this website, does it meet your approval?

anti-missionary.com/files/MessianicProphecy_part2_isaiah53i.html
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I was not born a Jew nor have any serious knowledge of Judaism and I think that make Jew ambivelant towards me and my faith. What I do know of Jews is this. I dated a Jewish girl (not really practicing). Her mother drove me up the wall and they liked arguing with each other. I’ve been to temple a couple of times to see what it was like. I’ve read some ancient Jewish apocalyptic literature and some of the Qumran finds from the Essenes. I’ve participated in a sader. (very interesting) I’m sure the Messianics (whom I’ve also spent time with in London) have mentioned this but the Matsah bread in the middle of the bag is broken and hidden - is this a referrence to Messiah? I will soon start reading Talmud. (I’ve only read exerpts)
All that makes me nothing to you accept interested in teachings. Not because I want to be converted or to convert (though I’m not against you converting though I think it highly unlikely) but because I’m interested in as far as Jesus thought and Christian thought.
The Essense believed in two messiahs a priestly Messiah and a Kingly Messiah. Do Jews believe this? Also does it worry you that many rabbi’s have claimed messiahship in the recent past?
 
sambos671 said:
I was not born a Jew nor have any serious knowledge of Judaism and I think that make Jew ambivelant towards me and my faith. What I do know of Jews is this. I dated a Jewish girl (not really practicing). Her mother drove me up the wall and they liked arguing with each other. I’ve been to temple a couple of times to see what it was like. I’ve read some ancient Jewish apocalyptic literature and some of the Qumran finds from the Essenes. I’ve participated in a sader. (very interesting) I’m sure the Messianics (whom I’ve also spent time with in London) have mentioned this but the Matsah bread in the middle of the bag is broken and hidden - is this a referrence to Messiah? I will soon start reading Talmud. (I’ve only read exerpts)
All that makes me nothing to you accept interested in teachings. Not because I want to be converted or to convert (though I’m not against you converting though I think it highly unlikely) but because I’m interested in as far as Jesus thought and Christian thought.
The Essense believed in two messiahs a priestly Messiah and a Kingly Messiah. Do Jews believe this? Also does it worry you that many rabbi’s have claimed messiahship in the recent past?
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Not sure how much you are actually asking here, but I do see you are asking if Jews believe in two Messiahs?

In the Zohar (which is the largest part of the Kabbalah, the Jewish mystical writings), it is said that there will be two messiahs. One will fight for the Jewish people and be killed, the second one will come to rebuild the (Third) Temple and usher in universal peace among all creation.

From what I can tell, the early Christians turned this Jewish mystical concept into the idea of one messiah who comes TWO times.
 
Amen! Speaking as a non-Catholic, Cathdefender/Judcath/Righteousone did more harm then good in defending the Catholic Church. Something to think about is that St. Paul was bold in sharing the faith, but he also knew his audience. There are many wonderful Catholics on this forum that do a fantastic job sharing their faith. These nuts however overshadow the sincere desire of many to share the faith with us non-Catholics.

God Bless!
 
emeraldcoast said:
Amen! Speaking as a non-Catholic, Cathdefender/Judcath/Righteousone did more harm then good in defending the Catholic Church. Something to think about is that St. Paul was bold in sharing the faith, but he also knew his audience. There are many wonderful Catholics on this forum that do a fantastic job sharing their faith. These nuts however overshadow the sincere desire of many to share the faith with us non-Catholics.

God Bless!
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I’ve noticed a strange change coming over me, as a result of all this “righteousone/cathdefender/judcath4” business. Maybe its because I am a former Moderator myself, for a Jewish forum where we had a similar problem, but I’m feeling a lot more sympathy for the Catholic church lately (or at least the Mods on this forum!) I know that being a Moderator is often a thankless job, making enemies sometimes on all sides. I finally gave it up (my former Moderator job elsewhere) because it was taking up too much of my time.

But NO forum deserves that kind of abuse by members who are insincere. Moderators are doing their jobs voluntarily as it is, and it makes it harder for them, when they are just trying to provide us with something we all enjoy.
 
Sepharad said:
Not sure how much you are actually asking here, but I do see you are asking if Jews believe in two Messiahs?

In the Zohar (which is the largest part of the Kabbalah, the Jewish mystical writings), it is said that there will be two messiahs. One will fight for the Jewish people and be killed, the second one will come to rebuild the (Third) Temple and usher in universal peace among all creation.

From what I can tell, the early Christians turned this Jewish mystical concept into the idea of one messiah who comes TWO times.
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thanks what about the broken matsah in the middle of the bag containing 3 pieces of matsah bread? Just curious.
 
sambos671 said:
thanks what about the broken matsah in the middle of the bag containing 3 pieces of matsah bread? Just curious.
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This is from ohr.edu and should answer your question:

The Riddle in the Middle
From: Neil Reznik in Valley Forge, PA

Dear Rabbi,

Why is the afikomen taken from the middle matza during the Seder rather than from the top or bottom matza?

Dear Neil,

On the first night of Pesach, we say two blessings over the matza. The first blessing, hamotzi, is the usual blessing we say when eating bread. Since this blessing is always best to say on a whole “loaf,” we therefore put an unbroken matza on top of the stack.

The second blessing, al achilat matza, is the special blessing we say for the commandment to eat matza on this night. This blessing applies especially to the broken matza, because this matza symbolizes our broken, impoverished state as slaves in Egypt. Since this blessing is the second one, the broken matza is second in the stack.

The third matza is included in order to complete lechem mishne, the requirement on Shabbat and festivals to use two whole loaves instead of one, and it goes on the bottom. According to widespread custom, this bottom matza is let to slip from the hands before the second blessing is said.

Sources:

Mishnah Berura 473:57, 475:2
 
judcath4 said:
Hello Sam,
I am very happy for you that you have found the truth and the Messiah, Jesus the Christ. Are you converting to Catholicism?
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No not yet, my soul is with :heart:Christ:heart:, but my flesh is still Muslim, however, as for the Christian denominations, I already dropped the Anglicans from my list because they supported gay marriage, and I ended up researching between Catholicism and Protestantism, so far, I think Catholicism is more acceptable to me, but I still couldn’t figure out how to call Mary as “Mother of God”, I’m still looking for more information on that.
 
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