Why, Judas, Oh Why?

[Reuben_J]

One of the readings during this Holy Week touches on the betrayal of Jesus by Judas.

Excerpt from Tuesday Gospel reading:

Jn 13:21-30 (NAB)

… Jesus was deeply troubled and testified, “Amen, amen, I say to you, one of you will betray me.”

The disciples looked at one another, at a loss as to whom he meant.
One of his disciples, the one whom Jesus loved, was reclining at Jesus’ side.
So Simon Peter nodded to him to find out whom he meant.

He leaned back against Jesus’ chest and said to him, “Master, who is it?”
Jesus answered, “It is the one to whom I hand the morsel after I have dipped it.” So he dipped the morsel and (took it and) handed it to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot.

After he took the morsel, Satan entered him. So Jesus said to him, “What you are going to do, do quickly.”

(Now) none of those reclining at table realized why he said this to him. Some thought that since Judas kept the money bag, Jesus had told him, “Buy what we need for the feast,” or to give something to the poor.

So he took the morsel and left at once. And it was night.

Some talking points:

• Was Judas ‘chosen’ to be destined to betray Jesus?
• Did Judas really have no choice but to carry out the betrayal?

So, what’s your thought?

Have a blessed Good Friday and Easter.

Reuben

 

[rstegeman]

Great questions. This is a topic that has often been a questionable one for me. I also wonder about the final outcome of Judas…Heaven or Hell? I know that Jesus stated that it would be better for his betrayer that he had never been born, but at least in Matthew’s account, after Christ is condemed to death, Judas is filled with sorrow. Would he have been forgiven at this point? Was his ultimate downfall the fact that he took his own life?

 

[fellicia]

Was Judas ‘chosen’ to be destined to betray Jesus?
Did Judas really have no choice but to carry out the betrayal?

Would Jesus have been crucified if Judas had not have been destined to betray Him. But then again the idea that He was destined could take away the whole free will idea.

Was his ultimate downfall the fact that he took his own life?

Isn’t taking a life a sin, even if it is ours?

Fellicia xxx

 

[Fidelis]

Nothing against the OP or the question, but has anyone noticed the recent surge in interest – even sympathy – for Judas Iscariot in these forums?

Is it, perhaps, because of the recent spate of dopey books and TV specials about the so-called “Gospel of Judas”?

The "Gospel of Judas"

Interview With Father Thomas Williams, Theology Dean

ROME, APRIL 5, 2006 (Zenit.org).- *The National Geographic Society has announced its intentions to publish an English translation of an ancient text called “The Gospel of Judas” later this month.

The 31-page manuscript, written in Coptic, purportedly surfaced in Geneva in 1983 and has only been translated now.

ZENIT asked Legionary Father Thomas D. Williams, dean of theology at the Regina Apostolorum university in Rome, to comment on the relevance of the discovery.*

Q: What is the “Gospel of Judas”?

Father Williams: Though the manuscript still must be authenticated, it likely represents a fourth- or fifth-century text, and is a copy of an earlier document produced by a Gnostic sect called the Cainites.

The document paints Judas Iscariot in a positive light, and describes him as obeying a divine ordinance in handing over Jesus to the authorities for the salvation of the world.

It may well be a copy of the “Gospel of Judas” referred to by St. Irenaeus of Lyons in his work “Against the Heresies,” written around A.D. 180.

Q: If authentic, what challenge would this document pose to traditional Christian belief? Will it “shake Christianity to its foundations” as some press releases have suggested?

Father Williams: Certainly not. The Gnostic gospels, of which there are many besides this one, are not Christian documents per se, since they proceed from a syncretistic sect that incorporated elements from different religions, including Christianity.

From the moment of their appearance, the Christian community rejected these documents because of their incompatibility with the Christian faith.

See entire article:
zenit.org/article-15726?l=english

 

[rstegeman]

I personally have not read that or anything about it. It’s just something that I’ve always been curious about. And it’s always one of those things I forget all about when I have time with a priest

It really hit me more this past Sunday, because for some reason, I’ve never really noticed the fact that Judas was sorrowful. I know that killing is a sin, but my question (and I don’t mean to take away from the OP’s questions) is: If Judas is in hell, is it because of the betrayal or because he took his own life? The question is based on Matthew’s account that he was remorseful following Christ’s condemnation.

 

[Mattjolley]

My feeling was that Judas was always destined to be the one to betray Our Lord, however else would Jesus have ended up in the hands of the jewish authorities, who had struggled during His ministry to lay a finger on him?

This idea of pre-destiny sort of takes away the guilt of judas, as if he had no control over his actions, as it was always going to happen; its definately a tough question

Matt

 

[Evan]

My feeling was that Judas was always destined to be the one to betray Our Lord, however else would Jesus have ended up in the hands of the jewish authorities, who had struggled during His ministry to lay a finger on him?

This idea of pre-destiny sort of takes away the guilt of judas, as if he had no control over his actions, as it was always going to happen; its definately a tough question

Matt

I don’t think being ‘predestined’ to something takes away your guilt. Predestined means that God, by looking at who you are as an entire person, including how you make your free choices, recognizes the choice you will make.

So God knew he would make the choice, but did not force the choice on him. So the guilt is his. But we also have that he repented (hence returning the silver as penance, but did he receive absolution?) and killed himself (another sin). Did he repent of this 2nd sin? Did he have full consent of the will?

We, as a church, pray that all may be saved. The guilt as well as the innocent. Pray for him. Your prayers can be effective so long as we do not know his final destiny: Heaven or Hell.

 

[rstegeman]

If God chose him because he knew his character, then doesn’t this put God in a bad light? If he knew Judas would be so inclined to make such a choice, then why would he put him in that position? Wouldn’t he be providing him the occasion to sin? Perhaps it was to give him the opportunity to make the right choice and redeem himself?

Another interesting point is found in Luke 22:3 where it says that Satan entered into Judas and he then went to the chief priests. At that point, did Judas have any control over the situation?

All in all, I find this subject to be one of the more intriguing sub-plots, if you will, in the Gospels.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

If God chose him because he knew his character, then doesn’t this put God in a bad light? If he knew Judas would be so inclined to make such a choice, then why would he put him in that position? Wouldn’t he be providing him the occasion to sin? Perhaps it was to give him the opportunity to make the right choice and redeem himself?

Another interesting point is found in Luke 22:3 where it says that Satan entered into Judas and he then went to the chief priests. At that point, did Judas have any control over the situation?

All in all, I find this subject to be one of the more intriguing sub-plots, if you will, in the Gospels.

I can’t imagine a more vainly curious and impious topic than this one. The early Christians would never have allowed their imaginations to run wild on such idle conjectures. Even St. Peter was chastised by Jesus when he innocently asked what would happen to John (After the Resurrection, and after Our Lord indicates to him by prophecy the manner of his death.) “It is not for you to know.” That’s all he got, and that’s all we should need. It’s not like we’re discussing something weird on Judge Judy, this is God Almighty!

 

[Reuben_J]

Thanks everybody for the response.

Great questions. This is a topic that has often been a questionable one for me. I also wonder about the final outcome of Judas…Heaven or Hell? I know that Jesus stated that it would be better for his betrayer that he had never been born, but at least in Matthew’s account, after Christ is condemed to death, Judas is filled with sorrow. Would he have been forgiven at this point? Was his ultimate downfall the fact that he took his own life?

I’ve heard the only certainty for hell was Judas as we can never know for sure who will go there. We only know for a certainty those who attained heaven - the canonized saints.

Knowing the mercy of the Lord, I suppose he would be forgiven for his remorse and I agree it was likely the taking of his own life that was his ultimate downfall.

 

[Reuben_J]

Would Jesus have been crucified if Judas had not have been destined to betray Him. But then again the idea that He was destined could take away the whole free will idea.

Thanks for addressing this. The main thrust of the thread is based on Jn 13. Personally I can’t accept the idea that he was predestined as it take away his free will which is contradictory to God’s plan of creation. Thus Adam had to bear the responsiblity of his action - even if Eve gave him the apple or Eve, even if the serpent tempted her.

Since you bring the free will thing - Jesus actually did not reveal Judas as the betrayal to the disciples. He merely said one of them was. I thought Jesus was being very gracious, and at that point in time, had Judas changed his mind nobody would have known except perhaps for John and Peter. Jesus told John it was the one whom he handed the morsel to. (And Peter, since he asked John to ask Jesus). What do you think?

Isn’t taking a life a sin, even if it is ours?

Fellicia xxx

Yes, it is a sin, even if it is our own. I think as for the matter of life (and death) it’s God’s.

God bless.

 

[Reuben_J]

Nothing against the OP or the question, but has anyone noticed the recent surge in interest – even sympathy – for Judas Iscariot in these forums?

Is it, perhaps, because of the recent spate of dopey books and TV specials about the so-called “Gospel of Judas”?

Yes, there is quite a huge interest in Judas in that area and the likes.

There is also the speculation that he was ‘instrumental’ in God’s plan of salvation as he caused the death of Jesus.

How would Catholics deal with this? I thought John 13 reveals some interesting facts about the role of Judas and hopefully we can get some discussion on that.

Thanks.

 

[Reuben_J]

My feeling was that Judas was always destined to be the one to betray Our Lord, however else would Jesus have ended up in the hands of the jewish authorities, who had struggled during His ministry to lay a finger on him?

This idea of pre-destiny sort of takes away the guilt of judas, as if he had no control over his actions, as it was always going to happen; its definately a tough question

Matt

Hi Matt.

As I said I could not agree with the idea of predestined. I think everone is responsible for the consequence of his action. I am thinking about the idea that Judas could have changed his mind. Jesus certainly seems to facilitate that course of action by not revealing him to the rest of the apostles. And the Gospel says they were at a loss as to who it was. By human standard it was a great way to save face had Judas decide not to move ahead with the betrayal. What do you think?

 

[Reuben_J]

If God chose him because he knew his character, then doesn’t this put God in a bad light? If he knew Judas would be so inclined to make such a choice, then why would he put him in that position? Wouldn’t he be providing him the occasion to sin? Perhaps it was to give him the opportunity to make the right choice and redeem himself?

Exactly. In fact Judas was the trusted one - he was given the task of keeping the finance! I used to reflect on this - that high position of trust in the church will not guarantee that we will not fall.

I think it’s not like God to provide someone the occasion to sin, in fact to the contrary. So it’s hard to think that he was chosen for this role. It’s possible that important position gives opportunity for a person to make amend but it also can be otherwise too.

Another interesting point is found in Luke 22:3 where it says that Satan entered into Judas and he then went to the chief priests. At that point, did Judas have any control over the situation?

All in all, I find this subject to be one of the more intriguing sub-plots, if you will, in the Gospels.

This is interesting. Jn13: 26-27 Jesus answered, “It is the one to whom I hand the morsel after I have dipped it.” So he dipped the morsel and (took it and) handed it to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot. After he took the morsel, Satan entered him.

The phrase Satan entered him denotes possesion, which if it’s the case, that was the point of no return. I was wondering the points between the announcement of the would be betrayal and Judas taking the morsel, was a moment of grace.

Jesus was graceful, did not reveal it was Judas so as to give Judas the chance to change his mind. But I thought when Judas made up his mind to betray Jesus, Satan entered him. In other word, as a disciple he was under the covering of the Lord even in the midst of temptation, but the moment he decided to sin, he lost that covering and thus allowing Satan to posses him. I don’t know. What do you think?

 

[Reuben_J]

I can’t imagine a more vainly curious and impious topic than this one. The early Christians would never have allowed their imaginations to run wild on such idle conjectures. Even St. Peter was chastised by Jesus when he innocently asked what would happen to John (After the Resurrection, and after Our Lord indicates to him by prophecy the manner of his death.) “It is not for you to know.” That’s all he got, and that’s all we should need. It’s not like we’re discussing something weird on Judge Judy, this is God Almighty!

Really?

I just saw a book my wife has - she is involved in the Children ministry. The ttle of the book - Questions children ask about God. I agree if you mean that we should not doubt the Bible, but not to ask questions? Are you giving appropriate analogy here on Peter’s asking about what would happen to John … ?

Anyway, you do bring an interesting point too.

 

[geekborj]

Some talking points:

• Was Judas ‘chosen’ to be destined to betray Jesus?
• Did Judas really have no choice but to carry out the betrayal?

So, what’s your thought?

1. God could have chosen other means possible at that time. Why assume “predestination”? God saw Judas as the best solution at that time because He knows everything but does not force anyone.
2. Judas had his choice. He chose to betray since it has been in his heart. There are passages in the Bible that tells us He never fully realized the messages of Jesus (I remember Jesus tell him “go to your poor people” or something to that effect).
3. As for the question of why Judas was trusted with finances when he cannot be trusted on the first place? God only knows why but i would assume that God wishes to give Judas a chance to prove his worth. Only, that he failed.
4. Remorse of Judas, enough for his salvation? I don’t think so. Peter also remorsed (maybe more than) and was even called Satan by Christ. But Peter stood beside Jesus and never left in the end! Peter always goes back to Jesus’ teachings and did not take his God-given life!

If you are authentically remorseful of your deeds, be sorry to God and not to “how you would look in the eyes of others” so you would rather want to go back to Him by turning back and repenting ALIVE rather than taking your own life to ease the guilt. Let God be the Judge as He is and will be. This is why there is such a Sacrament of Confession. Judas did not Confess to Jesus, he instead lied to Jesus trying to pretend he is not the one who will betray him. Maybe, Jesus is trying to urge him to confess and repent. He never did.

 

[e-catholic]

Since God is not subject to time as we are, isn’t it possible that Judas was not necessarily predestined, but God knew what would happen. Go knew what events would take place during Christ’s life and death, and therefore made them known trough old testament scripture, so the Jews could recognize the saviour. God was not the cause of these things, but he know what sinfull humans would do.

What do you think?

 

[Reuben_J]

1. God could have chosen other means possible at that time. Why assume “predestination”? God saw Judas as the best solution at that time because He knows everything but does not force anyone.

You ride on the question and you agree that God chose though the action was not predestined. I pose the question because I thought that this have become talking point for those who would want to capitalize on the importance of Judas in God’s salvific plan. Personally I don’t agree. Judas was not important. His action was attributed to his own disgrunted human expectation - thus the title of the thread.

In any case like what others had said, it’s not like God to choose or use human weakness to cause sin. Agree?

1. Judas had his choice. He chose to betray since it has been in his heart. There are passages in the Bible that tells us He never fully realized the messages of Jesus (I remember Jesus tell him “go to your poor people” or something to that effect).

Yes he did not fully realized Jesus Messiahship as did the rest of the apostles abviously at certain point in time. But don’t you feel it’s strange that unlike them, he took the course of action he did? What did it say about God himself if he couldn’t manage to dissiminate his message eventually?

What’s that triggered Judas stubborn decision to betray even up to the last moment when obviously Jesus knew about it?

1. As for the question of why Judas was trusted with finances when he cannot be trusted on the first place? God only knows why but i would assume that God wishes to give Judas a chance to prove his worth. Only, that he failed.

You are venturing yet into another dimension by saying this. It’s interesting though - Judas given a chance to prove his worth by the position he was given. Isn’t this a high on the assumption?

You are actually giving the idea that God put him in that position. Can you elaborate on this?

1. Remorse of Judas, enough for his salvation? I don’t think so. Peter also remorsed (maybe more than) and was even called Satan by Christ. But Peter stood beside Jesus and never left in the end! Peter always goes back to Jesus’ teachings and did not take his God-given life!

I thought if someone is remorseful of his sin, it’s a good basis for God’s forgiveness that saves him from hell. So it’s his taking of his own life which is fatal to his salvation.

Is there anything similar to Judas about Peter? I do not see it that way. I see Peter as being more temperament who would speak out without weighing the consequence. In essence there is nothing intrinsically evil about Peter.

If you are authentically remorseful of your deeds, be sorry to God and not to “how you would look in the eyes of others” so you would rather want to go back to Him by turning back and repenting ALIVE rather than taking your own life to ease the guilt. Let God be the Judge as He is and will be. This is why there is such a Sacrament of Confession. Judas did not Confess to Jesus, he instead lied to Jesus trying to pretend he is not the one who will betray him. Maybe, Jesus is trying to urge him to confess and repent. He never did.

At that point, John said ‘Satan had entered him’. What do you think about this? Did it has any bearing on his taking his own life instead of making a U-turn to Jesus?

 

[Reuben_J]

Since God is not subject to time as we are, isn’t it possible that Judas was not necessarily predestined, but God knew what would happen. Go knew what events would take place during Christ’s life and death, and therefore made them known trough old testament scripture, so the Jews could recognize the saviour. God was not the cause of these things, but he know what sinfull humans would do.

What do you think?

Hi Tracy.

Beautiful. I would go along with you here. I just want more insight from the others.

I was reflecting on Jn 13 and felt that God is really gracious. I am amazed at how Jesus did it, I mean he could have said it was Judas in front of all the apostles but he did not. Judas got his chance at that split moment in time but did not take it. Ultimately, each one of us are responsible for our own action. And never it is God that predestines or chooses us to sin.

Have a blessed Easter.

 

[geekborj]

You ride on the question and you agree that God chose though the action was not predestined. I pose the question because I thought that this have become talking point for those who would want to capitalize on the importance of Judas in God’s salvific plan. Personally I don’t agree. Judas was not important. His action was attributed to his own disgrunted human expectation - thus the title of the thread.

In any case like what others had said, it’s not like God to choose or use human weakness to cause sin. Agree?

I agree that God does not cause other humans to sin. But he can use stubborn and hard hearted men (like Judas and the Pharaoh in Moses’ time, Ramses(?)) to create good. You can see a lot of parallelism on Ramses and Judas actually.

Yes he did not fully realized Jesus Messiahship as did the rest of the apostles abviously at certain point in time. But don’t you feel it’s strange that unlike them, he took the course of action he did? What did it say about God himself if he couldn’t manage to dissiminate his message eventually?

What’s that triggered Judas stubborn decision to betray even up to the last moment when obviously Jesus knew about it?

True that other apostles did not also fully realize the same. But Judas’ behavior over his case is not like the other apostles. The other apostles trusted Jesus and the level of understanding of Judas because of this is “not full” as i said.

Judas is just stubborn and hard hearted, as you said.

You are venturing yet into another dimension by saying this. It’s interesting though - Judas given a chance to prove his worth by the position he was given. Isn’t this a high on the assumption?

You are actually giving the idea that God put him in that position. Can you elaborate on this?

I don’t mean that God placed him in that position. Judas chooses to be in that position. God just used his “hardness of heart” to bring about a much greater good. This is from the belief that God can bring about goodness from wicked things.

I thought if someone is remorseful of his sin, it’s a good basis for God’s forgiveness that saves him from hell. So it’s his taking of his own life which is fatal to his salvation.

Being remorseful is truly a necessity for forgiveness but it entirely depends on the main reason. What was the reason of Judas’ remorse?

Is there anything similar to Judas about Peter? I do not see it that way. I see Peter as being more temperament who would speak out without weighing the consequence. In essence there is nothing intrinsically evil about Peter.

How could you tell that Peter “speak out without weighing the consequence”? The way i see it, both of them uses their Will for decisions but only that Peter’s behavior (depending on Jesus’ explanation and graces) is much more superior (in contrast) with that of Judas.

At that point, John said ‘Satan had entered him’. What do you think about this? Did it has any bearing on his taking his own life instead of making a U-turn to Jesus?

I think the phrase “Satan had entered him” would mean a different tone in the original document (translation defect maybe?). For me it could mean that he had chosen to do something even he already knows its wrong. Just like Satan being an angel who knows everything but choses to disobey God.

The bearing of this “theory” to Judas taking his life would mean that his remorse is not true because he could have repented instead.

In any case, i know the Catholic Church does not say anything whether Judas went to Hell or not. We don’t know if Judas did repent before his last “breath.” If ever he would be in Heaven, probably he would be the least of the Saints. But then, i am being self-righteous if i say that.