Why, Judas, Oh Why?

[Reuben_J]

I agree that God does not cause other humans to sin. But he can use stubborn and hard hearted men (like Judas and the Pharaoh in Moses’ time, Ramses(?)) to create good. You can see a lot of parallelism on Ramses and Judas actually.

Then God obviously did not suceed with Judas. The contention here is whether God chose Judas to be in the role as a betrayer of Jesus. You seemed inclined to agree to that in the previous post and now supported by the above reasoning. The upside is that you can’t be wrong too. Ah, the possibilty what God could do.

True that other apostles did not also fully realize the same. But Judas’ behavior over his case is not like the other apostles. The other apostles trusted Jesus and the level of understanding of Judas because of this is “not full” as i said.

Judas is just stubborn and hard hearted, as you said.

Agree. Judas did not have the trust and that cost him dearly.

I don’t mean that God placed him in that position. Judas chooses to be in that position. God just used his “hardness of heart” to bring about a much greater good. This is from the belief that God can bring about goodness from wicked things.

Again, it did not work out accordingly as Judas did nothing good. Do you consider, though ironically, that Judas did good by betraying Jesus which led to Jesus crucifixion?

Being remorseful is truly a necessity for forgiveness but it entirely depends on the main reason. What was the reason of Judas’ remorse?

My speculation, and it’s just speculation - Judas’ remorse is established. There must be a reason when a person takes his own life and the reason cannot be one of contentment.

So what the reason? Basically for selling the master for money after the expectation was not granted. But it can range from being disappointed in following Jesus in the first place thinking that Jesus would be the promised Messiah (according to his understanding) to genuine remorse that he should not have betrayed his master whatever the reason.

How could you tell that Peter “speak out without weighing the consequence”? The way i see it, both of them uses their Will for decisions but only that Peter’s behavior (depending on Jesus’ explanation and graces) is much more superior (in contrast) with that of Judas.

From a few instances. One is immediately after Judas went out (Jn 13: 32-37) where Peter said he would follow Jesus and lay his life for him. Of course he could not live his words out but denied Jesus three times.

The other from the Holy Thursday reading.Jn 13:8 “Never. You shall never wash my feet”. Words that he recanted just almost immediately.

I think the phrase “Satan had entered him” would mean a different tone in the original document (translation defect maybe?). For me it could mean that he had chosen to do something even he already knows its wrong. Just like Satan being an angel who knows everything but choses to disobey God.

The bearing of this “theory” to Judas taking his life would mean that his remorse is not true because he could have repented instead.

Really there? I am trying to make a study on this. Mathew in chapter 16:22,23 clearly means it was not Peter but Satan who was responsible for his utterance. Why would there be any difference here?

I think his decision was made when he recieved the morsel from Jesus. After that he was under the tangible control of Satan where it would be difficult now to reverse his decision though he was culpable for his own action.

I mentioned earlier that as believing Christians we are always under the Lord’s covering. The moment we decide to sin we break that covering and allow Satan to take hold in our lives. Like an umbrella - sin causes a hole on it and allows rain to seep through it.

What do you think about the part of the Lord’s prayer - keep us from temptation but deliver us from evil? or as the priest says in the Communion Rite of Eucharistic celebration “Deliver us, Lord, from every evil, …”.

In any case, i know the Catholic Church does not say anything whether Judas went to Hell or not. We don’t know if Judas did repent before his last “breath.” If ever he would be in Heaven, probably he would be the least of the Saints. But then, i am being self-righteous if i say that.

Yes, the church true to her identity will never pronounce anybody goes to hell and I’m sure that include Judas too. But if there should be anyone who qualify, Judas would be close. I’m like you too, I’d be self-righteous in saying that.

Then we’d go to the second question of the thread:
Did Judas really have no choice but to carry out the betrayal?

Have a blessed Easter.

Reuben

 

[geekborj]

Thanks for your analysis and reply. My analysis resides on the idea that humans always have a free will. Nobody even God can take that away. Free will is one of His first gifts to us.

Again, it did not work out accordingly as Judas did nothing good. Do you consider, though ironically, that Judas did good by betraying Jesus which led to Jesus crucifixion?

I will never consider the thought that Judas did any good on the act of betrayal for two major reasons.
(1) The events can only be attributed to the Will of the Father as prayed by Jesus before “Thy Will be done” and as Jesus also commented before Judas left the Supper.
(2) Assuming that Judas did good, how would we judge the Jews who shouted “Crucify him (Jesus)!”? Did they also did good? Would Ramses also do good because of his “hardness of heart”? And many other cases which will cause a very open hole on the idea of good.

Thus, all events leading to Jesus crucifixion are all because of the Will of the Father and the Will of the Son to follow the same. This illustrates that Jesus is indeed the Son of Man (a perfect example that anti-typifies Adam) and that God can bring out much more graces from human sins. This has been the position of the Church ever since! Judas never became a Saint! There is a danger in attributing the crucifixion to any single person except for the Son of Man (will to follow the Will of the Father).

For a much more elaboration of this side, please read Romans 5:19-21.

This analysis will never be against the important role of the Virgin since it is clear in the Annunciation that she followed the Will of the Father: “let it be done to me as [God] said so.” Our Virgin Mother was asked by God to be an instrument. Judas was asked the same and given a chance to repent. Only, he failed, as conjectured above.

My speculation, and it’s just speculation - Judas’ remorse is established. There must be a reason when a person takes his own life and the reason cannot be one of contentment.

So what the reason? Basically for selling the master for money after the expectation was not granted. But it can range from being disappointed in following Jesus in the first place thinking that Jesus would be the promised Messiah (according to his understanding) to genuine remorse that he should not have betrayed his master whatever the reason.

Indeed, and i’m along with you that “Judas did remorse,” that “there must (always) be a reason when a person takes his own life” and in the last clause. But, we have to be careful about the “contentment” part. As i wanted to point out earlier, this “contentment” must be always be God-centered. I believe that Judas’ decision to take his own life is pride and therefore not a God-centered reason. (And thus, his “remorse” is not because of his love of God.) He must already know from Jesus that killing is against God’s commandments. Moreover, a righteous person (i firmly believe) will never take his own life, instead have trust and hope in God’s unbounded graces and divine Providence. Thus, if Judas is really righteous, he could have at least gone to Peter or the other Apostles and ask forgiveness, following Jesus’ commandments.

 

[geekborj]

<continuation…>

From a few instances. One is immediately after Judas went out (Jn 13: 32-37) where Peter said he would follow Jesus and lay his life for him. Of course he could not live his words out but denied Jesus three times.

The other from the Holy Thursday reading.Jn 13:8 “Never. You shall never wash my feet”. Words that he recanted just almost immediately.

As we can see here, Peter only recanted all his words upon Jesus’ rebuke. Thus, typifying an idea that though Peter’s will is weak, this same faithful will points him back to Jesus and trust every Word from Jesus’ mouth.

After Peter’s denial, did we see Peter go away and kill himself? No, Peter still waited with fear (locked doors during gatherings with other Apostles) and still held firm to his Faith that Jesus would return. In fact, it is ALSO with his Faith that Jesus will build His Church: a weak but faithful will. (Not just establishing with Peter’s Chair. God’s word is a two-edged sword: two meanings, both for our Faith).

Really there? I am trying to make a study on this. Mathew in chapter 16:22,23 clearly means it was not Peter but Satan who was responsible for his utterance. Why would there be any difference here?

I think his decision was made when he recieved the morsel from Jesus. After that he was under the tangible control of Satan where it would be difficult now to reverse his decision though he was culpable for his own action.

I mentioned earlier that as believing Christians we are always under the Lord’s covering. The moment we decide to sin we break that covering and allow Satan to take hold in our lives. Like an umbrella - sin causes a hole on it and allows rain to seep through it.

What do you think about the part of the Lord’s prayer - keep us from temptation but deliver us from evil? or as the priest says in the Communion Rite of Eucharistic celebration “Deliver us, Lord, from every evil, …”.

I’m hesitant to accept your illustration of how a man can commit sin. Based on your descriptions, it appears to me that it is not the person who eventually commits the sin but instead Satan in our hearts after we “allow (Satan) to seep through.” I firmly believe that it is us, the very will of a person, that commits sin against our God and no one else. Remember that Satan can never control our will (we have free will) but can only BEND OUR WILL.

Thus, we pray “keep us from temptation” because our will and reason is weak and may lead us to sin. We pray “deliver us from evil” as a perfect dependence on God’s grace for strength in battling the temptation and not commit sin. Note that God’s words are the shield and sword of every Christian. This includes his Commandments (laws and the precepts of His one true Church). This perspective echoes in the words of Jesus: “If you love me, follow my Commandments,” as he is the Word of God indeed!

What about the “Satan” as Jesus uttered? Kindly read on below.

Did Judas really have no choice but to carry out the betrayal?

Judas had a choice. He CHOSE to harden his heart even if he already knew that what he is doing is wrong. This is along my conjecture on the idea of “Satan entered him” as typifying him with Satan as an angel who knows everything yet freely chose to go against the Will of God. The same explanation can be done on Satan on Peter. Peter has a distorted will (like Satan) but a strongly faithful one (rock). This is very contrasting with Judas.

Therefore, it is just right to say, as the Church has – i believe – said, that Judas sinned (likely NOT JUST the betrayal part).

May we all have a meaningful and Holy Easter! Jesus our Savior died for us and is risen!

 

[Reuben_J]

Hi. Thanks for your reply. I find them most helpful. Been quite preoccupied these two days during the Easter Triduum.

Thanks for your analysis and reply. My analysis resides on the idea that humans always have a free will. Nobody even God can take that away. Free will is one of His first gifts to us.

I will never consider the thought that Judas did any good on the act of betrayal for two major reasons.
(1) The events can only be attributed to the Will of the Father as prayed by Jesus before “Thy Will be done” and as Jesus also commented before Judas left the Supper.
(2) Assuming that Judas did good, how would we judge the Jews who shouted “Crucify him (Jesus)!”? Did they also did good? Would Ramses also do good because of his “hardness of heart”? And many other cases which will cause a very open hole on the idea of good.

Thus, all events leading to Jesus crucifixion are all because of the Will of the Father and the Will of the Son to follow the same. This illustrates that Jesus is indeed the Son of Man (a perfect example that anti-typifies Adam) and that God can bring out much more graces from human sins. This has been the position of the Church ever since! Judas never became a Saint! There is a danger in attributing the crucifixion to any single person except for the Son of Man (will to follow the Will of the Father).

Excellent explanation.

I notice there are a couple of threads on Judas here. Lately there has been quite an upheaval of interest on this Biblical figure perhaps thanks to the Da Vinci Code movie. Out of nowhere you see Judas has become quite a celebrity! As if he was an indespensible piece to the jigsaw puzzle of the Lord’s crucifixion.

I always thought that Jesus would complete his mission on earth by giving his life for mankind’s salvation, with or without Judas involvment. I am just unable to put it nicely.

Nevertheless it is good lesson learnt for Christians. If anything, the gravity of sin causes unimaginable consequence, not only to the sinner but also to whom we sinned against.

For a much more elaboration of this side, please read Romans 5:19-21.

This analysis will never be against the important role of the Virgin since it is clear in the Annunciation that she followed the Will of the Father: “let it be done to me as [God] said so.” Our Virgin Mother was asked by God to be an instrument. Judas was asked the same and given a chance to repent. Only, he failed, as conjectured above.

Since you mention this. Just thinking out loud, you are effectively saying that without the Blessed Mother there would be no ephipany. I am not disagreeing with you but I do hear very harsh comment that God would be reincarnated with or without her, thus downgrading her role as the Mother of God. But maybe this is beside the point here but the proponent of the idea would say if it can be said of Judas why can’t the same logic be said about Mary?

I

ndeed, and i’m along with you that “Judas did remorse,” that “there must (always) be a reason when a person takes his own life” and in the last clause. But, we have to be careful about the “contentment” part. As i wanted to point out earlier, this “contentment” must be always be God-centered. I believe that Judas’ decision to take his own life is pride and therefore not a God-centered reason. (And thus, his “remorse” is not because of his love of God.) He must already know from Jesus that killing is against God’s commandments. Moreover, a righteous person (i firmly believe) will never take his own life, instead have trust and hope in God’s unbounded graces and divine Providence. Thus, if Judas is really righteous, he could have at least gone to Peter or the other Apostles and ask forgiveness, following Jesus’ commandments.

Thanks for this explanation. I hadn’t thought about pride in Judas’ action in taking his life. It makes sense really. It’s his pride that prevented him from going back to Jesus. In fact when Jesus revealed that one of them would betray him, Judas should have owned up then. Interesting, had he did, what would happen then?

 

[Reuben_J]

…

 

[Reuben_J]

2 of 2

As we can see here, Peter only recanted all his words upon Jesus’ rebuke. Thus, typifying an idea that though Peter’s will is weak, this same faithful will points him back to Jesus and trust every Word from Jesus’ mouth.

After Peter’s denial, did we see Peter go away and kill himself? No, Peter still waited with fear (locked doors during gatherings with other Apostles) and still held firm to his Faith that Jesus would return. In fact, it is ALSO with his Faith that Jesus will build His Church: a weak but faithful will. (Not just establishing with Peter’s Chair. God’s word is a two-edged sword: two meanings, both for our Faith).

This is the difference between Peter’s character and Judas’. I see Peter as a simple person and straight forward in verbalizing his thought, while Judas was more scheming and already had his own personal motive and agenda when he was called to the apostleship.

But hey, I thought you said they were similar in your previous post, the reason I brought up Peter’s impulsive characteristic.

I’m hesitant to accept your illustration of how a man can commit sin. Based on your descriptions, it appears to me that it is not the person who eventually commits the sin but instead Satan in our hearts after we “allow (Satan) to seep through.” I firmly believe that it is us, the very will of a person, that commits sin against our God and no one else. Remember that Satan can never control our will (we have free will) but can only BEND OUR WILL.

I was saying that when ‘Satan entered him’ he was under the control of Satan, sort of being possessed. You understand that phrase differently though as a temptation.

If that was the case it would be very difficult for Judas to act independently even if he could eventually pry himself away from Satan’s grip. Thus if my ‘theory’ is correct then Judas would have reasonable mitigation to support his suicide. He would however still responsible for his action of betraying Jesus by selling him for the 30 pieces of silver with the intention to kill him. I hope there may be more opinions on this. 

Thus, we pray “keep us from temptation” because our will and reason is weak and may lead us to sin. We pray “deliver us from evil” as a perfect dependence on God’s grace for strength in battling the temptation and not commit sin. Note that God’s words are the shield and sword of every Christian. This includes his Commandments (laws and the precepts of His one true Church). This perspective echoes in the words of Jesus: “If you love me, follow my Commandments,” as he is the Word of God indeed!

I agree insomuch it applies to temptation. But don’t you believe that Satan can do much worse to us other than just tempting us?

May we all have a meaningful and Holy Easter! Jesus our Savior died for us and is risen!

Alleluia!

Thanks and God bless.

 

[geekborj]

Excellent explanation.

Glory be to God for it is Him through Christ’s Church that these are revealed to us.

I notice there are a couple of threads on Judas here. Lately there has been quite an upheaval of interest on this Biblical figure perhaps thanks to the Da Vinci Code movie. Out of nowhere you see Judas has become quite a celebrity! As if he was an indespensible piece to the jigsaw puzzle of the Lord’s crucifixion.

I always thought that Jesus would complete his mission on earth by giving his life for mankind’s salvation, with or without Judas involvment. I am just unable to put it nicely.

Nevertheless it is good lesson learnt for Christians. If anything, the gravity of sin causes unimaginable consequence, not only to the sinner but also to whom we sinned against.

Pity because as usual, the human Pride tries to cover up the Works of God and puts himself as the one responsible. Pity how we are clouded by our own human Pride. God have mercy!

Since you mention this. Just thinking out loud, you are effectively saying that without the Blessed Mother there would be no ephipany. I am not disagreeing with you but I do hear very harsh comment that God would be reincarnated with or without her, thus downgrading her role as the Mother of God. But maybe this is beside the point here but the proponent of the idea would say if it can be said of Judas why can’t the same logic be said about Mary?

True! Without the Blessed Mother, there is no Ephipany! Indeed, this downgrades her role as just the “Mother of God.” This title is for us to remember two things:
(1) She is just, like us, human and inferior to God (even to her Son).
(2) She became an Instrument (however great but still INSTRUMENT) of God for outpouring His infinite Graces to the Humankind.
Always remember that the Blessed Mother never claimed anything for Herself. The very praise that we give to the Virgin is her very willing and doubtless “YES,” and that from that her role is indeed Blessed and she will be called by that name forever. The title “Queen of Heaven” is indeed rightly placed!

Exactly the same kind of logic can be done on Judas’ case. However, “the proponents of the idea” (quoted from your statement above) miss two very important points: Firstly (1), BOTH ARE WILLING TO DO THE respective ACTs by virtue of their very FREE WILL. That is, nobody is forced to do their respective roles as Providence requires. This i think “they” argue. But, second and AT THE SAME TIME (2) By “will” we mean “purpose,” “reason” for action. Mary’s “yes” is in the purpose of “doing the Father’s Will” and being called Blessed is the rightful reward of that “yes”. As for Judas, his purpose is to gain 30 pieces of silver well illustrated in the Gospel*. His remorse is another story but i think i have already expounded my point on my answers to one or two threads somewhere.

To add, the very statement of our Queen of Saints is the ultimate model of those belonging to the Children of God (Communion of Saints): “be it done to me according to [God’s Will].” Can’t you see the same pattern with: (1) Christ’s prayer and (2) Lord’s prayer that we ought to say? “Thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven…”

I hadn’t thought about pride in Judas’ action in taking his life. It makes sense really. It’s his pride that prevented him from going back to Jesus. In fact when Jesus revealed that one of them would betray him, Judas should have owned up then. Interesting, had he did, what would happen then?

I would assume some other would have the heart of Satan and take over his Role. Many more consequences, for one: How would that say about humans? Would that illustrate how frail we are at Temptations? Human Weakness is well illustrated in the Apostles (even to Kepha himself!). Didn’t Jesus told us that “He came for the sinners”? He is just true to His words as HE IS.

Only God would know. As for us, have we have to trust on God’s Providence. Do you remember how God fulfilled Abraham’s need for sacrifice in replacement of Isaac? God is Good, Perfect. Or better “God is the Good and the Perfection, indeed!”

Glory be …

---

footnotes

• He even tried to justify “giving to the poor.” Jesus rebuked this non-God centered purpose according to Judas.

 

[jcrichton]

I had been out of the loop for a while… since there are so many posts I thought I should make it a general…

I am unaware of any books on Judas–my reply stands alone…

The argument about Judas’ guilt or lack of repentence leave out several factors:

Jesus states that He chose the 12 and that one was a devil!

This issue is brought up by Christ on many instances to the point that He states that the Son of Man will be betrayed but woe to the betrayer, it would have been better for him not to have been born.

This issue is not a secret one.

Jesus makes His disciples aware that among them there is one who will betray Him.

Another point is Jesus statement that He prays for the Eleven but not for the betrayer–if Judas’ is not predestined, why did Jesus refuse to pray for him?

At the last supper there is one particular concern among the disciples: who is the betrayer? Peter, as always, is the one to move and he uses Jesus’ relationship with John to secure the response they all want: “the one that dips his bread with Me…” (paraphrased)… yet another passage concerning the betrayal has Judas’ himself asking Jesus “Is it me?” Jesus’ reply is “you have said it.”

No secrets here!

God knowing the future and giving Judas some slack to repent and not betray Jesus:

Here are some problems with that… Yahweh God makes a big deal about being the One True God–He offers the fact that He reveals the things that have not yet happened so that all may know that He is that All Powerful: El Shaddai!

But if Yahweh is simply speaking of things He recalls… how is that a prophecy? How is that revealing that which has not yet happened? That is weak! It would mean that He is pulling the wool over everyones eyes!

Then did God failed to convert Judas? No!

Every single prophecy that spoke on Jesus’ betrayal by one of His “friends” would be wrong!

So did Judas just chose to sell Jesus without any outside influence? No.

So it was Satan’s fault? No.

Satan is not God–Satan’s abilities are limited. He would not assist in God’s Salvific Plan!

Here’s a clue: “I lay down my life and I take it up again.”

It is the Father’s Will. It is the Son’s Will.

The devil cannot take Jesus’ Life!

So, then Jesus is committing suicide? No!

Judas betrays Him into the hands of those who wish to kill Him ("…better that One Man die for the people…")

Did Judas have a choice, could he simply just walk away?

…well… he had as much choice as Kephas; yes that Jesus Loving guy who just a few hours before would give his life for Him then proceeded to deny Him not once, not twice, but three times within the span of minutes…

Truly, Kephas should have known better: he believed.
Truly, Kephas should have done differently: Jesus prayed for him specially as He commanded him to gather on to himself the others.
Kephas had three opportunities to stop, think, and walk away… but he didn’t; doing so would have made Jesus a liar!

So it would be if none of the twelve would have betrayed Jesus: the Father would be a liar, the Son would be a liar, the Holy Spirit would be a liar–God attested to one of Jesus’ “friends” betraying Him!

Yahweh God said one time: “My Word will not return to me till all I have intented to fulfill is accomplished.” (paraphrased)

We had God’s Word that Judas is a devil, son of perdition, a betrayer… God’s Word cannot be void!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[AndyF]

1. God could have chosen other means possible at that time. Why assume “predestination”? God saw Judas as the best solution at that time because He knows everything but does not force anyone.

Only one problem. Free choice assumes that within a group:
1/Everyone will 2/Everyone won’t 3/Some will.

Knowing this to be true and not tampering with the odds if you could, and you have a desire that your son be betrayed, then it can only be a possibility that your desires come true and not a certainty. If you absolutely desire it to occur, you would need to negate 2 from occurring.

AndyF