Why justify faith?

[dredgtone]

I’m just curious as to people think about this. Christians and just religious people in general often try to justify their faith in the face of non believers who accuse them of upholding illogical beliefs. Is that not the purpose of faith? To believe in what you cannot see or prove? Why try to prove anything then?

When it comes down to it, proof of God’s existance is subjective. It is the feeling of God in one’s heart that serves as an affirmation as to the existance of God. You feel him, you know him. That is the only proof anyone needs.

So go through such great lengths to try and argue as to God’s existance? An angel came down from heaven and told the virgin mary she was going to give birth to the savior of humanity, she gives birth to the Son of God, who is also God at the same time, along with the Holy Spirit and thus is the trinity etc etc… Cmon now, believer or not you must admit thta sounds a bit… beyond us? No need explaining here, just believe because you feel God.

 

[ralphinal]

A counter question, then. Why should people who do noot feel God feel the need to save us from those things that make us happy? Why must those who deny God try to convence us of the same thing? I know from previous posts that you are not that kind of person (unless I miss my guess).

Yes, the entire story is beyond us. That is true with all things of God: beyond Humanity. I love my faith. It consoles me, gives me hope, helps to explain why bad things happen and why we should keep on trying. It lets me know that there is true meaning to life and all life if worth protecting. I could go on, but that is how I feel.

 

[dredgtone]

ralphinal:

A counter question, then. Why should people who do noot feel God feel the need to save us from those things that make us happy? Why must those who deny God try to convence us of the same thing? I know from previous posts that you are not that kind of person (unless I miss my guess).

Yes, the entire story is beyond us. That is true with all things of God: beyond Humanity. I love my faith. It consoles me, gives me hope, helps to explain why bad things happen and why we should keep on trying. It lets me know that there is true meaning to life and all life if worth protecting. I could go on, but that is how I feel.

To answer your first question, I’d have to be blatantly honest and say that I think it’s a natural human desire to prove ourselves right and others wrong. I think that answers my question to as to why people justify their faith in the face of others.

People like to view themselves as smiters of ignorance. If someone is upholding an ignorant belief, I’m going to call them on it. Of course the fine line must be drawn between what is illogical to Catholic standards and what is illogical to universal standards.

 

[john654]

Because were Christians and God told us to spread the word!

John

 

[dredgtone]

john654:

Because were Christians and God told us to spread the word!

John

But that is no justification for faith, merely a spreading of faith. =)

 

[ralphinal]

dredgtone:

To answer your first question, I’d have to be blatantly honest and say that I think it’s a natural human desire to prove ourselves right and others wrong. I think that answers my question to as to why people justify their faith in the face of others.

People like to view themselves as smiters of ignorance. If someone is upholding an ignorant belief, I’m going to call them on it. Of course the fine line must be drawn between what is illogical to Catholic standards and what is illogical to universal standards.

Why do you search outside of yourself, grasshopper? Now then, let’s talk about standards. Are we defining logic as what holds water only in Modern America or can we take into account all cultures and frames of references?

 

[dredgtone]

ralphinal:

Why do you search outside of yourself, grasshopper? Now then, let’s talk about standards. Are we defining logic as what holds water only in Modern America or can we take into account all cultures and frames of references?

I am speaking about logic in terms of all frames of references. But please let us not go into the unknown, as in the inception of the universe =)

 

[ralphinal]

Not my intention at all. It is just that logic can have different meanings depending on the person to whom you speak. Many times, we hold to things as being logical only because the information that we have leads us to that conclusion. Think of this, would the logic of Socrates be the same as the logic of one of the oriental philosophers? Ideally yes, but in reality, no. Now, if there is one true logic that crosses all times, cultures, and genders (very important) I have yet to see it. As long as we keep the questions fraimed correctly, then we can discuss logically.

 

[Maggie]

dredgtone:

I’m just curious as to people think about this. Christians and just religious people in general often try to justify their faith in the face of non believers who accuse them of upholding illogical beliefs. Is that not the purpose of faith? To believe in what you cannot see or prove? Why try to prove anything then?

I agree with you completely. To attempt to prove the existence of God decries the need for faith and our own free will. It is both an insult to God and an insult to us. It implies that the only part of us that has any value is our intellect, and renders us slaves to it rather than free and loving children of Him.

dredgtone:

When it comes down to it, proof of God’s existance is subjective. It is the feeling of God in one’s heart that serves as an affirmation as to the existance of God. You feel him, you know him. That is the only proof anyone needs.

Here I disagree with your terms. Knowledge of God and proof of God are two very different things. I know God exists simply because He does. However there is nothing in that knowledge that would aid me in proving it because then I would lose my faith, and we are called to faith. Proof, by it’s nature can’t be subjective, and God’s existence isn’t subjective. God doesn’t cease to exist simply because some don’t believe in Him, nor does He become more real when some believe. He IS.

dredgtone:

So go through such great lengths to try and argue as to God’s existance? An angel came down from heaven and told the virgin mary she was going to give birth to the savior of humanity, she gives birth to the Son of God, who is also God at the same time, along with the Holy Spirit and thus is the trinity etc etc… Cmon now, believer or not you must admit thta sounds a bit… beyond us? No need explaining here, just believe because you feel God.

Exactly! Which is why one should only argue with a non-believer if they approach you first. Certainly you would never want to approach them on it because without a heart softened by God and ready to receive the Word, they will not see beyond the stone cold god of logic and reason and will have no allegiance to other than their faculty of intellect. So if you’ve been having an ongoing argument with a non-believer, you need to consider whether God is calling them or they are trying to de-convert you. Stay strong in your faith, because you know God exists. He will give you strength and faith and courage. These are trying arguments because often they do not recognize how much of what they claim to be able to prove they are taking on faith already, but throw God into the equation and that is the one thing they will not take on faith.

 

[dredgtone]

ralphinal:

Not my intention at all. It is just that logic can have different meanings depending on the person to whom you speak. Many times, we hold to things as being logical only because the information that we have leads us to that conclusion. Think of this, would the logic of Socrates be the same as the logic of one of the oriental philosophers? Ideally yes, but in reality, no. Now, if there is one true logic that crosses all times, cultures, and genders (very important) I have yet to see it. As long as we keep the questions fraimed correctly, then we can discuss logically.

I agree completely. It’s tempting to learn towards an objective anything but all too often we’re reminded of our subjective reality. However I do think deductive reasoning with correct (“correctness” being the issue) variables is pretty much something we can all rely on.

Which is why I think it’s funny when religious debates become so heated. It’s typically the same empirical evidence being interpreted differently and two people saying to each other YOU CAN"T INTERPRET IT LIKE THAT! Yeah sure you can interpret things incorrectly but at least the fact that it’s an interpretation gives some sort of subjective opinionated lee-way as to what is right or wrong.

 

[dredgtone]

Here I disagree with your terms. Knowledge of God and proof of God are two very different things. I know God exists simply because He does. However there is nothing in that knowledge that would aid me in proving it because then I would lose my faith, and we are called to faith. Proof, by it’s nature can’t be subjective, and God’s existence isn’t subjective. God doesn’t cease to exist simply because some don’t believe in Him, nor does He become more real when some believe. He IS.

Well, there had to have been some sort of causation as to the reason you believe. Knowledge of God and proof of God are two different things, yes, but how could you have knowledge without SOME sort of proof? I used to be a Christian, i think i should mention now before you are misled that I am indeed an atheist with an open heart open mind for anything that comes across me. That being said, do I know God exists simply because he does? I think that’s quite the impossible task for me, for I’d have no causation to believe just because somewhere i heard He exists. The proof for me before was the actual FEELING of knowing someone above me existed. Such proof needs no logical foundation.

So what i meant about it being subjective is that essentially, proof is interpreted subjectively. And for some, there isn’t even proof to begin with.

 

[ralphinal]

I think I know what you are going to say, but if you can neither prove or disprove God, then why take the negative stand? From my scientific training, I cannot disprove, so I accept as possible. From there, I build my faith. I know that you can say the opposite, but should you not accept the possibility?

 

[dredgtone]

ralphinal:

I think I know what you are going to say, but if you can neither prove or disprove God, then why take the negative stand? From my scientific training, I cannot disprove, so I accept as possible. From there, I build my faith. I know that you can say the opposite, but should you not accept the possibility?

Is this in reference to agnosticism?

 

[Maggie]

dredgtone:

Well, there had to have been some sort of causation as to the reason you believe. Knowledge of God and proof of God are two different things, yes, but how could you have knowledge without SOME sort of proof? I used to be a Christian, i think i should mention now before you are misled that I am indeed an atheist with an open heart open mind for anything that comes across me. That being said, do I know God exists simply because he does? I think that’s quite the impossible task for me, for I’d have no causation to believe just because somewhere i heard He exists. The proof for me before was the actual FEELING of knowing someone above me existed. Such proof needs no logical foundation.

So what i meant about it being subjective is that essentially, proof is interpreted subjectively. And for some, there isn’t even proof to begin with.

Okay, I almost missed the question… so what did it take for me to believe in God? That’s an excellent question. Many of us go through periods where we question or doubt. We learn about Him as children and young adults and then we start asking the hard questions as we become adults. For me it was a decision, a conviction, and then a feeling. I was going through a series of questions, and I finally got so muddled, I came to the conclusion that of course God existed, apologized for my doubt, decided from thence forward that all of my questions would be based upon that decision, and then I “knew”. It was as simple as that. All I had to do was accept His existence for Him to reveal it to me. And all my life He had protected me, and I had had the childlike unquestioning faith in Him, but it wasn’t until that moment that I knew and that my faith became grounded in reality and I understood that it wasn’t a matter of Him existing for some but not for others, that His existence wasn’t subjective, but real.

Does that make any sense at all? (I know I babble sometimes, but how exactly does one describe a scene where one is wrestling with the questions of the universe, finally surrenders them to God and has Him touch her heart? I don’t know how better to describe it.)

 

[dredgtone]

Maggie:

Okay, I almost missed the question… so what did it take for me to believe in God? That’s an excellent question. Many of us go through periods where we question or doubt. We learn about Him as children and young adults and then we start asking the hard questions as we become adults. For me it was a decision, a conviction, and then a feeling. I was going through a series of questions, and I finally got so muddled, I came to the conclusion that of course God existed, apologized for my doubt, decided from thence forward that all of my questions would be based upon that decision, and then I “knew”. It was as simple as that. All I had to do was accept His existence for Him to reveal it to me. And all my life He had protected me, and I had had the childlike unquestioning faith in Him, but it wasn’t until that moment that I knew and that my faith became grounded in reality and I understood that it wasn’t a matter of Him existing for some but not for others, that His existence wasn’t subjective, but real.

Does that make any sense at all? (I know I babble sometimes, but how exactly does one describe a scene where one is wrestling with the questions of the universe, finally surrenders them to God and has Him touch her heart? I don’t know how better to describe it.)

That makes perfect sense. I especially liked how you said “For me it was a decision, a conviction, and then a feeling.” That sums it up perfectly.

 

[Maggie]

dredgtone:

That makes perfect sense. I especially liked how you said “For me it was a decision, a conviction, and then a feeling.” That sums it up perfectly.

Awesome! I never know how to say it but I’m glad it helped.

 

[chemcatholic]

dredgtone:

Which is why I think it’s funny when religious debates become so heated. It’s typically the same empirical evidence being interpreted differently and two people saying to each other YOU CAN"T INTERPRET IT LIKE THAT! Yeah sure you can interpret things incorrectly but at least the fact that it’s an interpretation gives some sort of subjective opinionated lee-way as to what is right or wrong.

And this is why having a magisterium is important You’ve just stated one of the reasons that Christians should all become Catholic. Good job! Now, if only we can get all of our separated brethren to realize this…

Peace

 

[kellie]

dredgtone:

I’m just curious as to people think about this. Christians and just religious people in general often try to justify their faith in the face of non believers who accuse them of upholding illogical beliefs. Is that not the purpose of faith? To believe in what you cannot see or prove? Why try to prove anything then?

When it comes down to it, proof of God’s existance is subjective. It is the feeling of God in one’s heart that serves as an affirmation as to the existance of God. You feel him, you know him. That is the only proof anyone needs.

So go through such great lengths to try and argue as to God’s existance? An angel came down from heaven and told the virgin mary she was going to give birth to the savior of humanity, she gives birth to the Son of God, who is also God at the same time, along with the Holy Spirit and thus is the trinity etc etc… Cmon now, believer or not you must admit thta sounds a bit… beyond us? No need explaining here, just believe because you feel God.

If God didn’t send Himself down to Earth as a man called Jesus, to preach to us about the glory of His Kingdom, I would probably think that the angel coming to Mary to give birth to the Saviour etc etc etc would be hard to fathom, if I had read that in a book.

But as Jesus did come down here, in flesh and blood, then even though all of the Bible can sound a bit far fetched, I believe it.

And that is what I do when I “justify my faith”.
I tell people why I believe. It’s not enough for me to say that I have a Faith, and hope that the person I am talking to will suddenly “feel” God too.

I need to explain who Jesus was, what He taught us, and why He taught us.

If that is called “justifying my faith” then yes I do that.

Love Kellie

 

[dredgtone]

kellie:

If God didn’t send Himself down to Earth as a man called Jesus, to preach to us about the glory of His Kingdom, I would probably think that the angel coming to Mary to give birth to the Saviour etc etc etc would be hard to fathom, if I had read that in a book.

But as Jesus did come down here, in flesh and blood, then even though all of the Bible can sound a bit far fetched, I believe it.

And that is what I do when I “justify my faith”.
I tell people why I believe. It’s not enough for me to say that I have a Faith, and hope that the person I am talking to will suddenly “feel” God too.

I need to explain who Jesus was, what He taught us, and why He taught us.

If that is called “justifying my faith” then yes I do that.

Love Kellie

But justifying faith and explaining faith are two different things. Justifying your faith is putting it to the test of argument, you are justifying the reasons you uphold it.

But at the same time i don’t think Christians or Catholics should be scared or offended when they must answer to non believers. What doesn’t kill you only makes you stronger correct? If you’re secure about your faith, it can only become stronger through defending it.

 

[DeniseTOCarm]

Jesus told us not to hide our light under a bushel and he instructed his apostles (and through them us) to go out and preach to all nations. I don not justify my faith to anyone but St Paul I think told us always to be ready to explain the hope that is with in us.