Why JW's don't believe in the Hell

[redle]

I suppose you might say Satan is in a no-win situation, but he’s determined to take as many of us with him as he can. And as I said, when demons are exorcised, they scream. They know where they’re going. I’ve spoken to a couple of people who had performed exorcisms, and I remember one of them saying “You should see the way they carry on! They don’t want to go!!”

Lots for me to take in here Bob, and I appreciate you recollecting you personal experience for me - personally I would have been terrified.

Thinking on your comments, is it true to say that RC’s have the Devil, despite his rebelliousness, despite his evil and murderous history, being given a position of power and responsibility?

Does he not suffer himself even though he is the cheif architect of everything in opposition to God?

In other words, the worst criminal gets the lightest sentence?

Redle.

 

[redle]

Redle…big questions…

do you believe you are going to heaven? Do you believe literally that only 144,000 will go there? Or will you live an everlasting existance on earth?

Hi P&P

No I don’t believe I will go to heaven (or hell, or purgatory).
I do think there are only 144,000 destined for heaven.
I’m hoping my future will be living forever on a restored paradise earth.

I’m struggling to keep up with all the other questions and know this could turn into a biggie, so I don’t think I’ll be able to elaborate much on this for now - sorry.

 

[SteveVH]

If we accepted it was literal, we would also have to accept that there is indeed a fiery hell. Given the previous posts about the end of things being death, not life (in torture), that the soul can die, that God wouldn’t do such a thing as torture people, given the whole picture like this we ask “what can this illustration mean?”

Redle, I think you have a very common view of what hell is about; that God sends people there to torture them for their sins. With this view it is understandable that one would reject it as it does not seem in character with a loving God. I would happen to agree with you. If you would, I would like you to consider another point of view that may seem more reasonable.

First of all, we do not have a God that would torture anyone, much less for eternity. We have a God who loves, he even loves those who end up in hell. We were created as rational beings with free will. God never interfere’s in our free will. He allows us to make the choices we wish to make. There are some, if not many, who have chosen to live a life apart from God. They don’t want anything to do with God at all because it would mean changing their lives, giving up the things that they desire more than Him.

When one dies in this state, living a life apart from God, they will receive exactly what they have chosen; a life apart from God, but now for eternity. God does not throw people into hell. They run there themselves. Hell is the absence of God and all the attributes of God; love, warmth, light, charity, etc. The pain of being apart from God, for eternity; that is hell. God desires that all be saved. He does not torture us. He simply allows us to make the choice, in this life, and does not interfere in that choice, ever.

God bless.

 

[minkymurph]

If nephesh can mean equally ‘life’ or ‘soul’ (which to me is ok, since they are both ‘breathers’) doesn’t this make the immortality of the soul a difficult teaching?

What I mean is, if we have an immortal soul, this is equal to us having an immortal life.
Immortality means we can’t die, so… I’m not sure where I’m heading with this, but I think you can see my dilemma here?

Redle.

I do see your dilemma. It’s a fair question and warrants an explanation.

Is it not the case JW’s believe the 144 000 receive immortality. Once they are in heaven, they not only will never die, but can never die, and they are given an incorruptible body? On this basis an immortal life shouldn’t seem such a strange concept.

Catholics believe in the Resurrection of the body. The final step for want of a better phrase in sharing the eternal life of God is when soul and body are reunited in heaven. As in your belief, the body we receive is an incorruptible body, one that will never die. Therefore, the only difference between us is Catholics, and of course many others, believe this is open to all, and not just a limited number. Of course I appreciate may have got this wrong.

Catholics do not believe in what is termed ‘dualism’ - that is the soul and the body exist as two separate entities. To Catholics, they are one in that a unity exists between soul and body. As such, ‘nephesh’ is both the body and the soul in union. However, the body is mortal due to the fact the flesh is corruptible, meaning it dies. Our corruptible body is not designed to go on forever. It eventually wears out and dies. However, the life force that is infused into the flesh, the same life force God infused into Adam, is not organic as it is of divine origin. As such, it returns to the one who gave it - God. The life force God gives is incomplete as human in the absence of a body, the flesh. I may not be explaining this very well and someone may correct me on some of the finer points of our understanding of the soul and immortality, but I’m doing my best.

To explain further, a person, or ‘soul’ is both flesh and spirit. The mother ‘clothes’ the soul with flesh during pregnancy by nurturing the fetus in her womb, much in the same way Mary clothed the life force that was Jesus during her pregnancy. In our case, the life force that is given by God is infused into the fetus at some point after conception. God is the giver of life and sustains all life. Plants, animals etc. What makes humans as souls distinct form animals is that we are in the Image of God. The life force God bestows on human is His very own nature, which makes us different form animals in that we have a higher sense of morality, higher intelligence, capable of reason, (however in this day and age that could be disputed ) capable of a relationship with God, and in fact we desire a relationship with God.

Immortality is something that is granted by God. It is a gift from God and not something we have a right to claim. The reason humans have an immortal life is because God made us in his image, and his purpose of doing so was because it was His intention we would share in his immortal life. So yes, we do have an immortal life because it is what we were created to be. In relation to heaven and hell, we choose how we will spend our immortal life. Either with God in heaven, or not. We cannot change how we were created because we don’t want to spend eternity with God. God does not make us mortal because we don’t want immortal life, and refuse His offer to spend eternity with Him.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Lots for me to take in here Bob, and I appreciate you recollecting you personal experience for me - personally I would have been terrified.

Thinking on your comments, is it true to say that RC’s have the Devil, despite his rebelliousness, despite his evil and murderous history, being given a position of power and responsibility?

Does he not suffer himself even though he is the cheif architect of everything in opposition to God?

In other words, the worst criminal gets the lightest sentence?

Redle.

I don’t know how being thrown into a lake of fire with the qualities of something like molten glass for eternity will be the “lightest sentence”. That strikes me as a terrible fate, burning alive in molten glass, but unable to “die”. As yet it hasn’t happened, but no doubt the devil is aware of it, and that his time is running short.

I do think he is allowed power and authority. That was his very boast to Christ during the tempations - “All these (earthly kingdoms) are mine, and I can give them to whoever I want.” He was of course overthrown by Christ’s death and resurrrection, but he still has power.

Whether he suffers himself as he rules in hell I could not say. I suspect he does in some sense, but I’m afraid I don’t have the insight to answer that one.

Take a look at Job. While I think it’s brilliant fiction, I believe there’s an underlying reality in that the devil was allowed to put Job to the test. It’s as though Job becomes the proxy for God, rather than an all out contest between God and the devil.

 

[zippity]

Wonderful discussion! I am learning much thanks to all. God bless

 

[Porknpie]

Hi P&P

No I don’t believe I will go to heaven (or hell, or purgatory).
I do think there are only 144,000 destined for heaven.
I’m hoping my future will be living forever on a restored paradise earth.

I’m struggling to keep up with all the other questions and know this could turn into a biggie, so I don’t think I’ll be able to elaborate much on this for now - sorry.

Redle -

Revelation 14 below, KJV. Do you believe the 144,000 were celibate Jewish men? The 144,000 can not be literal while celibate Jewish men are figurative. There is no justification in scripture for this.

14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Revelation 7 below speaks to the 144,000 being where? On earth.

7 And after these things I saw four angels** standing on the four corners of the earth**, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed **an hundred and forty and four thousand **of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

See in Revelation 7:9 the other groups that are in heaven…a great multitude, angels, elders and four beasts.

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, **stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, **clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

From the Catholic Catechism on all who are in heaven

The celebrants of the heavenly liturgy

1137 The book of Revelation of St. John, read in the Church’s liturgy, first reveals to us, “A throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne”: "the Lord God."1 It then shows the Lamb, “standing, as though it had been slain”: Christ crucified and risen, the one high priest of the true sanctuary, the same one "who offers and is offered, who gives and is given."2 Finally it presents “the river of the water of life . . . flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb,” one of most beautiful symbols of the Holy Spirit.3

1138 “Recapitulated in Christ,” these are the ones who take part in the service of the praise of God and the fulfillment of his plan: the heavenly powers, all creation (the four living beings), the servants of the Old and New Covenants (the twenty-four elders), the new People of God (the one hundred and forty-four thousand),4 especially the martyrs “slain for the word of God,” and the all-holy Mother of God (the Woman), the Bride of the Lamb,5 and finally "a great multitude which no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes, and peoples and tongues."6

1139 It is in this eternal liturgy that the Spirit and the Church enable us to participate whenever we celebrate the mystery of salvation in the sacraments.

Redle, God wants you to be saved, in heaven, not on earth with him forever. 1 Timothy below. Keep following the Truth and the Truth will set you free. :extrahappy:

2 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

[PRmerger]

I will use scriptures from the Douay Bible to defend the JW view. It’s one of those issues that we really won’t be able to reach concensus on.
Please note a) JW’s believe ‘hell’ means the grave, a place of death and inactivity, b) JW’s do not believe in an immortal soul, we believe souls can die.

If you do not believe in an immortal soul, are the 144,000 destined for heaven also going to die at some point?

Or do only these 144,000 have an immortal soul?

 

[SteveVH]

If nephesh can mean equally ‘life’ or ‘soul’ (which to me is ok, since they are both ‘breathers’) doesn’t this make the immortality of the soul a difficult teaching?

What I mean is, if we have an immortal soul, this is equal to us having an immortal life.
Immortality means we can’t die, so… I’m not sure where I’m heading with this, but I think you can see my dilemma here?

Redle.

We have spiritual immortality, not physical immortality. We will, however, be reunited with our bodies which will be glorified and made immortal as well. Why do you think God could not accomplish that?

There is such a thing, however, as spiritual death, which is the reason for our Baptism. Our soul is infused with supernatural life and God makes his dwelling within us, making it possible to spend eternity with him.

 

[kimg901]

If only 144,000 are going to heaven, why do the JW’s keep recruiting? Dont they have like a million members?

 

[SteveVH]

If only 144,000 are going to heaven, why do the JW’s keep recruiting? Dont they have like a million members?

Because they can still spend eternity in Paradise here on earth. Only the 144,000 actually get to heaven. But if it is for eternity, does that not mean that they have immortal bodies and souls?

 

[kimg901]

Because they can still spend eternity in Paradise here on earth. Only the 144,000 actually get to heaven. But if it is for eternity, does that not mean that they have immortal bodies and souls?

Im not sure. JW is one religion I have not studied and I have studied many. All I say is “Go with God Bro!!!”

 

[SteveVH]

Im not sure. JW is one religion I have not studied and I have studied many. All I say is “Go with God Bro!!!”

I was half kidding. They do believe that the soul dies and at the same time that they will live forever on a paradise earth. Seems a little contradictory to say the least.

 

[kimg901]

Haha. contradicting yourself is so confusuing

 

[redle]

I was half kidding. They do believe that the soul dies and at the same time that they will live forever on a paradise earth. Seems a little contradictory to say the least.

Hi, I’ve been away for a bit.
Just to clarify what you have correctly stated, JW’s currently have approx 7 million active members.
We expect there will be a total of 144k who will go to heaven. They will become kings and priests, and will rule over those on earth. Only these 144k will be granted immortality.

Those not of the 144k have the prospect of living forever on earth, not with immortality but with everlasting life.

The difference being that immortals cannot die but those with everlasting life can, if they later rebel against God like Adam and Eve did.

Confused? You will be!

Redle

 

[Daft]

Revelation 7:4

“I heard the number of those who had been marked with the seal, one hundred and forty-four thousand marked 4 from every tribe of the Israelites”

and

Revelation 14:3-4

“They were singing (what seemed to be) a new hymn before the throne, before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn this hymn except the hundred and forty-four thousand who had been ransomed from the earth. These are they who were not defiled with women; they are virgins and these are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They have been ransomed as the firstfruits of the human race for God and the Lamb.”

These seem to negate the JW’s “theory” on who enters Heaven. If they believe only 144,000 enter, then Scripture says they are to be Jewish virgin males.

 

[PRmerger]

Only these 144k will be granted immortality

So would it be correct to say that JWs do indeed believe in the immortality of the soul, but only for a select group of people?

If this is correct, then are you saying that the Scripture you use to cite that the soul is NOT immortal do not apply to this select group?

 

[minkymurph]

Hi, I’ve been away for a bit.
Just to clarify what you have correctly stated, JW’s currently have approx 7 million active members.
We expect there will be a total of 144k who will go to heaven. They will become kings and priests, and will rule over those on earth. Only these 144k will be granted immortality.

Those not of the 144k have the prospect of living forever on earth, not with immortality but with everlasting life.

The difference being that immortals cannot die but those with everlasting life can, if they later rebel against God like Adam and Eve did.

Confused? You will be!

Redle

I wouldn’t say confused I just don’t see the point.

Are you saying those with everlasting life may, like Adam and Eve disobey God and no longer be sinless? A repeat of what happened in Eden? What would be the point of that?

 

[pacloc]

Hello all, first of all I would like to mention to all of you that are giving respect and time to this JW thinking that he/she is giving you the same respect are being deceived. (That is unless he goes against the Watchtower teaching that Catholics are the chief member of Babylon the Great) If he is a true Jehovah’s Witness, then he is doing what all JW’s do, that is appearing to be interested in what religious doctrine you present him as if it could possibly change his mind, but in reality is just looking at ways to develop insecurity in your beliefs due to either misunderstanding/lack of bible knowledge.

I was a Jehovah’s Witness pretty much my whole life and have recently left due to a deeper personal study of the Bible. I was well on my way to becoming a Ministerial Servant (I’m 28) and was participating in field service, #3 talks, Watchtower readings, working at the literature counter. There are many, many unscriptural teachings that JW present, which I will share a few shortly. There are also many, many things that non JWs do not know that JWs believe in. One thing that many don’t know is that no personal interpretation of scripture is allowed, so trying to convince a witness to change their view is fruitless, because at the end of the day their answer is that of the faithful and discreet slave, no matter what the bible says. The other thing that Jehovah’s witness teach is that there are only 7 million Christians in the world today, that’s right not JWs, but Christians. That was one of the main reasons I left the organization, I had run into too many Christians in the field ministry that had been baptized in Christ and were living their lives in a Godly way based on the sacrifice of Jesus. Then realizing that JWs call their baptisms false and their whole belief as false, it struck me that something really wrong was going on. For JWs these people would have to be re-baptized into the jw religion, no matter their spiritual state. To top it off, most JWs doubt alot of the ones claiming the call of the Anointed Little flock. All of this goes contrary to scripture that states that tells us not to insult the weakest of brothers and that doing so is unforgivable.

So anyway, one teaching that is completely against the Bible is that JWs do not believe that anybody before Jesus died will be with Christ in the Kingdom of Heaven. This means that Abraham, Issac, and Jacob only have the prospect of living on Earth under the rule of the 144,000, which does include by the way, Charles Taze Russel. So in this regard, though JW teach that neither call is greater than the other, Charles T is greater than Abraham. Matt 8:11 and Luke 13:28, 29 says exactly the opposite, so JWs really have to stretch to explain this one, by saying that Abraham represents Father, Issac Jesus, Jacob the 144,000 sons of Israel/Jacob. Pretty creative if you ask me. Eph 2 10, 14-22 help share the fact that Gentile Christians “unite” with the Saints of old. Hebrews 11 shows that Heaven was the true home of all the Saints and that they are alive contrary to JW belief. 1 Peter 10, 11 ( which the nwt removes Christ, puts in footnote in their big bible) shows that the spirit of Christ was in men/prophets before Christ came. Could really go on for a long time, seeing as JW are alone in thinking that their watchtower leaders are above Abraham. The funny thing is that Rutherford taught that these faithful of old would be resurrected in the 1920’s, so he built a mansion to house them, good stuff.

What they also don’t tell you is that this life is not the life that we are judged from. They believe that poor Abraham and Moses will have to be resurrected and instructed by Charles Taze and the rest of the “Body of Christ” which they are not a part of. They will be judged on their resurrected life during the 1000 year reign of Christ and the 144,000. And that even after that, they are not immortal like Charles Taze, they could die for sinning once, because the issue of God’s Sovereignty has already been proven, kind of like a court thing. Good ol’ Charles Taze and the ones running the watchtower get to be immortal and called God’s children/body of Christ/Born again, and everyone else just benefits from them.

Sorry for the severeness JW, but you know that everything I have mentioned is the reality that is the Watchtower Organization. Some some question for you

1.) Do you credit anyone’s baptism in Christ as equal to JW’s baptism?
2.) Are you willing to believe in something different than what you are told is truth from the faithful and discreet slave?
3.) Do you think that the timing of one’s being born (before or after Jesus’ death) really would influence one’s eternal destination?
4.) Do you believe that these strange doctrines that were newly introduced in the last 100+ years nullify what has been taught for 2,000 years?
5.) Do you really believe that Jesus returned to rule in 1914?

 

[pacloc]

Redle, I just looked up some of your previous posts and noticed that you mentioned that you are not a die-hard JW.-

Please be aware that I am a JW apologist, but not blindly so. It’s all I have known through my life, but I am open to objective discussion.

As an example, simply being on this forum qualifies me for disfellowshipping and complete shunning, but I consider discussion to be of greater importance. So yes, I will always try to give you my most honest answers!

So on that note, I apologize if you really are not up to something deceitful. I would love to conversate with you personally if you would like to know more about how I, my wife, and many others have left the watchtower society and have joined the Catholic Church. The really sad thing is the consequence of leaving, especially if you have family in the organization, like i do.

also the 1 Peter scripture I mentioned is 1 peter 1:10, 11.

Peace to you.