Why Latin (the language)?

[Chatter163]

fshcm.com/wisdom.html

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I love the Catholic Church and love the liturgy and sacraments! I am a Roman Rite Catholic, and my church does most of the Mass in English. However, some prayers and chants, including the Gloria, Sanctus, and Pater Noster, are said in Latin.

I never really thought about this until I was asked to explain it to someone, and discovered that I myself did not understand why we use Latin sometimes during Mass.

So…why do Roman Rite Catholics say some prayers in Latin? How is it drawing us closer to God if we do not understand fully what is being said? Is there any church documents or books or websites that explain the reason for Latin in worship simply and well?

Thank you!

Well, you can’t really tell me that you don’t know what the Gloria, Sanctus, and Pater Noster mean, right?

What you’re saying is that even though you know what they say in English, when you see or hear them said in Latin, you don’t know the Latin ‘fully’, even though Pater Noster looks and sounds pretty similar to “Father Our”. And Gloria and “Glory to” are awfully similar. “Sanctus” may not look or sound like "holy’ but wait, I’m pretty sure you’ve heard words like "sanctify’ and know it means “make holy”.

I’m almost 58 so I remember hearing the Mass in Latin as a youngster and following in my Latin/English missal. My mom, my grandparents, their ancestors, despite having all sorts of languages (German, Dutch, Danish etc) as their ‘mother tongue’ all were born, lived, and died hearing the Latin Mass, and they understood it just as fully as if they had been born, lived, and died hearing the "vernacular Mass’ that we know today. It’s a matter of discipline. Of course, our elders didn’t have to compete with TV, the Internet, and a supposed broadening and diversity; they had ‘the written word’ (and the oral words) and they used the time that we use today to channel surf to study and listen and learn.

It always astonishes me that while in one breath we talk about how marvelous it is that people today are so aware of other cultures and practices (as though our grandparents and elders were so NARROW MINDED that they only knew their OWN culture and never tried to ‘mingle’ with different people), in the same breath we have people clamoring that they can ONLY UNDERSTAND something in ‘my own language’.

My grandfather knew eight languages, and he was not considered ‘unique’. He was born in Bavaria (just like Pope Benedict) and like so many people educated in the late 19th and early 20th century, even educated only in a plain ordinary school, he studied not only German but French, Italian, and English, along with Latin and Greek. (He learned Hebrew and Spanish for his own enjoyment as a young man, Hebrew in order to study Scripture more thoroughly, Spanish once he had moved to this country and, in living in NYC, wanted to be able to communicate with the many Spanish-speaking Catholics there.

But in all the above, German, French, Italian, English speakers, Spanish speakers in his time all went to the Latin Mass. One could wander into any church in NYC and the Mass (in Latin) was the same. One simply took out one’s missal which offered Latin plus the language of choice (I still have Grandpa’s German/Latin, French/Latin, and English/Latin missals) and followed along.

You could stand next to 50 different people, each of whom spoke a different language, and every one of you would understand that Latin Mass.

Today, you would have to offer 50 different Masses in order to satisfy the ‘need’ of each of those 50 to hear Mass in ‘his or her’ OWN language.

 

[Tom_Baum]

We still use Latin during the Mass because some of our members were born before 1960. Imagine that. We actually have old people in our pews.

It wasn’t until sometime between 1965 and 1969, depending on the diocese, that the Mass was changed over from Latin to the vernacular. Anyone who received their First Holy Communion before or during those years learned the Mass in Latin, and probably developed a sincere fondness for proclaiming the prayers in the language the church used for almost two thousand years.

Using Latin appeals to our sense of sacredness and longstanding tradition, unified for all time over the centuries.

As far as “and probably developed a sincere fondness for proclaiming the prayers in the language the church used for almost two thousand years”, unless they were the priest or the altar boy, they would not have proclaimed anything since no one except the priest and altar boy/s said anything at Mass.

Some may or may not have proclaimed to themselves but no one except the priest and altar boy/s proclaimed anything out loud at Mass back then.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Well, you can’t really tell me that you don’t know what the Gloria, Sanctus, and Pater Noster mean, right?

What you’re saying is that even though you know what they say in English, when you see or hear them said in Latin, you don’t know the Latin ‘fully’, even though Pater Noster looks and sounds pretty similar to “Father Our”. And Gloria and “Glory to” are awfully similar. “Sanctus” may not look or sound like "holy’ but wait, I’m pretty sure you’ve heard words like "sanctify’ and know it means “make holy”.

I’m almost 58 so I remember hearing the Mass in Latin as a youngster and following in my Latin/English missal. My mom, my grandparents, their ancestors, despite having all sorts of languages (German, Dutch, Danish etc) as their ‘mother tongue’ all were born, lived, and died hearing the Latin Mass, and they understood it just as fully as if they had been born, lived, and died hearing the "vernacular Mass’ that we know today. It’s a matter of discipline. Of course, our elders didn’t have to compete with TV, the Internet, and a supposed broadening and diversity; they had ‘the written word’ (and the oral words) and they used the time that we use today to channel surf to study and listen and learn.

It always astonishes me that while in one breath we talk about how marvelous it is that people today are so aware of other cultures and practices (as though our grandparents and elders were so NARROW MINDED that they only knew their OWN culture and never tried to ‘mingle’ with different people), in the same breath we have people clamoring that they can ONLY UNDERSTAND something in ‘my own language’.

My grandfather knew eight languages, and he was not considered ‘unique’. He was born in Bavaria (just like Pope Benedict) and like so many people educated in the late 19th and early 20th century, even educated only in a plain ordinary school, he studied not only German but French, Italian, and English, along with Latin and Greek. (He learned Hebrew and Spanish for his own enjoyment as a young man, Hebrew in order to study Scripture more thoroughly, Spanish once he had moved to this country and, in living in NYC, wanted to be able to communicate with the many Spanish-speaking Catholics there.

But in all the above, German, French, Italian, English speakers, Spanish speakers in his time all went to the Latin Mass. One could wander into any church in NYC and the Mass (in Latin) was the same. One simply took out one’s missal which offered Latin plus the language of choice (I still have Grandpa’s German/Latin, French/Latin, and English/Latin missals) and followed along.

You could stand next to 50 different people, each of whom spoke a different language, and every one of you would understand that Latin Mass.

Today, you would have to offer 50 different Masses in order to satisfy the ‘need’ of each of those 50 to hear Mass in ‘his or her’ OWN language.

You may think that all understood what was being said but is that true or merely your opinion?

I was an altar boy and I knew what to say but that doesn’t mean that I understood what I was saying.

I may be unique in that way that I knew what to say but didn’t necessarily understand what I was saying, but I would guess that I was not the only one in that boat, so to speak.

I do not know how many languages that you know but I know only English, however, I do know, from listening to others, that my one grandfather, who was an immigrant, knew 6 languages, however this multi-language knowledge of Americans, (US Americans), seems to be on the wane, to put it mildly.

The United States of America, the so-called melting pot of the world, sad to say, seems to be the most mono lingual place on the earth, any opinions concerning this opinion of mine?

 

[otjm]

You may think that all understood what was being said but is that true or merely your opinion?

I was an altar boy and I knew what to say but that doesn’t mean that I understood what I was saying.

I may be unique in that way that I knew what to say but didn’t necessarily understand what I was saying, but I would guess that I was not the only one in that boat, so to speak.

I do not know how many languages that you know but I know only English, however, I do know, from listening to others, that my one grandfather, who was an immigrant, knew 6 languages, however this multi-language knowledge of Americans, (US Americans), seems to be on the wane, to put it mildly.

The United States of America, the so-called melting pot of the world, sad to say, seems to be the most mono lingual place on the earth, any opinions concerning this opinion of mine?

You and I are in the same boat - we both learned the Latin responses by rote.

Latin was widely taught as a translated language, as opposed to a spoken one. I went to one Catholic high school and started learning Latin - as translated - and we were taught translation one direction, from Latin to English; not how to correctly translate from English to Latin.

The for my junior year I moved to a different high school; they were teaching Latin as a spoken language (I think it was the Sweet metod, after a professor Sweet). The teacher would ask a question in Latin; hands would go up. By the time I trnslated it from Latin to English, and came up with a response, I was three to four quetions behind. Needdless to say that course got dropped after the teacher tried to tutor me.

However, I had also started taking Greek (Homeric, the Odessey) and did fine as a translated language.

Then I took two more years of Latin in college seminary - back, again to translated method. And most of that has been consigned to the dustbin of history.

My experience was that most people in Mass did not understand Latin; they could hear the words and identify where the priest was in the Mass, but they could not speak it, and many did not even have a missal with the Latin on one side and English on the other. Those that did have a missal had one because it had the English.

One of my daughters is fluent in Spanish. Recently we were talking about work, and I asked her why she didn’t try to get a translator’s job; her response is that there were classes specifically for translators, and she had never taken them, and did not feel capable of being able to accurately shift between Spanish and English.

And not to make too fine a point of it, but I think it was John Paul 2 who lamented that Latin was being used less and less among the clergy in the Vatican.

Some people are graced with knowing - that is, being able to communicate - in more than one language. I am not, and have always wished I could.

 

[ProVobis]

I do not know how many languages that you know but I know only English, however, I do know, from listening to others, that my one grandfather, who was an immigrant, knew 6 languages, however this multi-language knowledge of Americans, (US Americans), seems to be on the wane, to put it mildly.

Yes, but we’re not talking memorizing an entire Latin dictionary to understand the words used in the Mass. The EF has only 600 some distinct words, many of which have English cognates. I’ll bet many who attend and understand a Latin Mass of either form don’t even know that many. But then how many people know what “And with your spirit” or “consubstantial” mean in the English Mass? Aren’t there people still complaining that the language is still too tough for them? So why spend the money to keep retranslating the Mass?

The United States of America, the so-called melting pot of the world, sad to say, seems to be the most mono lingual place on the earth, any opinions concerning this opinion of mine?

Should we attribute this more to arrogance or more to ignorance? English, math, and science aren’t doing too well either. I hear people talking that they or their kids have no desire to learn these so I don’t know the answer.

But here’s an interesting read on the efficacy of Latin Studies.

teach.valdosta.edu/whuitt/files/latin.html

 

[Tom_Baum]

You and I are in the same boat - we both learned the Latin responses by rote.

Latin was widely taught as a translated language, as opposed to a spoken one. I went to one Catholic high school and started learning Latin - as translated - and we were taught translation one direction, from Latin to English; not how to correctly translate from English to Latin.

The for my junior year I moved to a different high school; they were teaching Latin as a spoken language (I think it was the Sweet metod, after a professor Sweet). The teacher would ask a question in Latin; hands would go up. By the time I trnslated it from Latin to English, and came up with a response, I was three to four quetions behind. Needdless to say that course got dropped after the teacher tried to tutor me.

However, I had also started taking Greek (Homeric, the Odessey) and did fine as a translated language.

Then I took two more years of Latin in college seminary - back, again to translated method. And most of that has been consigned to the dustbin of history.

My experience was that most people in Mass did not understand Latin; they could hear the words and identify where the priest was in the Mass, but they could not speak it, and many did not even have a missal with the Latin on one side and English on the other. Those that did have a missal had one because it had the English.

One of my daughters is fluent in Spanish. Recently we were talking about work, and I asked her why she didn’t try to get a translator’s job; her response is that there were classes specifically for translators, and she had never taken them, and did not feel capable of being able to accurately shift between Spanish and English.

And not to make too fine a point of it, but I think it was John Paul 2 who lamented that Latin was being used less and less among the clergy in the Vatican.

Some people are graced with knowing - that is, being able to communicate - in more than one language. I am not, and have always wished I could.

I can not say for sure if this is true but I attended some discussions concerning Vatican II and it was brought up that the Protestants observers at Vatican II were supplied translators since the meetings were done in Latin whereas the actual attendees were not supplied with translators even tho many were not conversant in Latin, could be that the Holy Spirit had less people get in His Way during Vatican II.

It seems that from what I have learned over the years is that quite a few clergy knew liturgical Latin and only liturgical Latin.

I, personally, am glad that the Mass is in the vernacular since we may actually hear something that is beautiful in what it says, rather than just pretty in how it sounds.

Mystery, in a religious sense to me, means that something is beyond our natural abilities to know, not because it is spoken of in a language that one does not understand but because we can only believe it by faith or know it by revelation.

These “revelations” are given by God to whomever God chooses and these “revelations” are by no means restricted only to the “higher ups”, contrary to what some seem to believe.

I do not seem to be much of a “linguist” either, I took Spanish in high school and I sure do not blame my teacher for the little bit of Spanish that I know, we are all different and we all have our strengths and weaknesses.

I admire those that can and have learned other languages, some absolutely amaze me in how they seem to be able to pick up a language with what appears to be such ease.

As far as, “I think it was John Paul 2 who lamented that Latin was being used less and less among the clergy in the Vatican”, how many of the clergy, outside of the Vatican, do you or anyone else thinks used Latin for anything other than the Mass and teaching for who knows how long?

This is merely my opinion, but I do not think that Vatican II was the start of Latin being used less outside of Mass settings, actually if the attendees at Vatican II were not conversant in Latin, it must have started long before Vatican II.

One of the things that I have said about tradition, including but not limited to Latin, is that all tradition was once new and not tradition at all.

 

[felsguy]

As a cradle Catholic born in the early 1940’s, I can testify to the fact that the "ordinary practicing Catholic-in-the-pew most certainly was **familiar ** with hearing the prayers of the Mass in Latin but that is a far cry from saying that more than a very few of them (of us) understood hearing the prayers of the Mass in Latin.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

As a cradle Catholic born in the early 1940’s, I can testify to the fact that the "ordinary practicing Catholic-in-the-pew most certainly was **familiar ** with hearing the prayers of the Mass in Latin but that is a far cry from saying that more than a very few of them (of us) understood hearing the prayers of the Mass in Latin.

I think you, and perhaps Tom too, are not ‘getting’ what is meant by understood.

As I said, one went in the missal from the Latin part to the ‘vernacular’. Most people, starting at least in the 20th century, would not be able to stand up and look at the Latin prayers outside of the missal (say, picking up Ovid’s Metamorphoses in the original Latin) and read it off and understand it) But. . .BUT. . .BUT. . .you HEARD the prayers in LATIN and you UNDERSTOOD the English translation, didn’t you? And as others mentioned, there are not that many actual Latin words used in the parts that the laity participated in, many of which are cognates and thus understood. Pater is close to "father’, right? Spiritus, Spirit. . .

Nobody is saying that everybody went to Mass and heard the Latin (without looking at the translation) and understood it as we might stand there and hear it today in English (assuming we speak English), but as we have found out in the last 40 something years, fiddling around with translations and trying to make them seem more ‘with-it’ often muddles the meaning.

 

[Elizium23]

From the Baltimore Catechism:

Q. 566. Why does the Church use the Latin language instead of the national language of its children?

A. The Church uses the Latin language instead of the national language of its children:

    To avoid the danger of changing any part of its teaching in using different languages;
    That all its rulers may be perfectly united and understood in their communications;
    To show that the Church is not an institute of any particular nation, but the guide of all nations.

A case in point. This English translation used the neuter pronoun “its” for the Church instead of the correct feminine pronoun “her”, thus imparting a faulty theology of the Church which is the Bride of Christ.

 

[ProVobis]

I do not seem to be much of a “linguist” either, I took Spanish in high school and I sure do not blame my teacher for the little bit of Spanish that I know, we are all different and we all have our strengths and weaknesses.

I never took Spanish but of what little I know, I picked up most of it just by attending the Spanish Mass and following the text only in the Spanish. I’m not learning much of anything in the English Mass, except not to bother to memorize any of it.

 

[TimothyH]

Completely agree…it is titular… meaning purely ceremonial or honorary and carries no authority… which reinforces my point that it is an attachment based on personal preference.

It’s not only titular.

Church documents are in Latin as a reference, an authoritative version from which all translations are produced.

-Tim-

 

[CyrilSebastian]

Pope Pius XII mentioned:
The use of the Latin language prevailing in a great part of the Church affords at once an imposing sign of unity and an effective safeguard against the corruptions of true doctrine.

 

[Razanir]

It’s not only titular.

Church documents are in Latin as a reference, an authoritative version from which all translations are produced.

-Tim-

No, I was saying that the word “sacred” is titular. We don’t consider Latin to be any holier of a language than any other. I only called it a sacred language because that’s what it’s called when a religion has a language they always use. Of course we consider it important. We publish encyclicals in it, the Mass is officially in Latin, plenty of people still pray in Latin. I only said that “sacred language” is titular because AFAIK we don’t actually think the language is holy. We just use it out of tradition.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I never took Spanish but of what little I know, I picked up most of it just by attending the Spanish Mass and following the text only in the Spanish. I’m not learning much of anything in the English Mass, except not to bother to memorize any of it.

Ever heard the prayer, “And Lord have Mercy on us ALL”, during the Mass?

Seems to me that by reading quite a few of the posts on various “titles” that some seem to think that God will have Justice on some and Mercy on some but not Mercy on ALL.

Of course, this “Justice” seems to be anything but Justice but the individual’s own view of Justice and that even tho many speak of God’s Infinite Mercy, many of those many have quite a narrow view of Mercy and also that Divine Justice and Divine Mercy have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

I happen to believe that Divine Justice and Divine Mercy are so intertwined as to be one.

 

[JimG]

I was an altar server for many years at the Latin Mass. We altar servers of course memorized the Latin responses proper to us without needing to understand them. And yet during the times I sat in the pews following along in my missal, the meanings inevitably became clear.

A big part of the altar servers responses occurred during the “Prayers at the Foot of the Altar,” at the beginning of Mass.

The priest began: “Introibo ad altare Dei.”
The servers responded: “Ad Deum qui laetificat juventutem meam.”

“I will go in unto the altar of God.”
“To God who gives joy to my youth.”

I always figured they must have written that part just for us kids!

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Ever heard the prayer, “And Lord have Mercy on us ALL”, during the Mass?

Seems to me that by reading quite a few of the posts on various “titles” that some seem to think that God will have Justice on some and Mercy on some but not Mercy on ALL.

Of course, this “Justice” seems to be anything but Justice but the individual’s own view of Justice and that even tho many speak of God’s Infinite Mercy, many of those many have quite a narrow view of Mercy and also that Divine Justice and Divine Mercy have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

I happen to believe that Divine Justice and Divine Mercy are so intertwined as to be one.

not to nit pick, but “and Lord have mercy on us all” isn’t found in exactly those words anywhere in the Mass. I mean, the priest doesn’t say those words in that order, the people don’t say them. . .in the penitential rite one option has “have mercy on us” or “Lord Have Mercy” but not “and Lord have mercy on us all”. . . at least, that’s what the GIRM says. Lord knows I’m familiar with Masses where the GIRM is not followed to the letter, or even much at all, and that could be a problem.

I don’t know where you’re going with the mercy and justice idea. You’re entitled to your opinions but they are just that. .your opinion, your feeling. . .and they aren’t necessarily what posters said, or meant. Why not address what is actually said, or even ask (PM if necessary) if a person meant to say X as that’s what you garnered from the post, so that the person can either say “Yes it was” or “no it wasn’t”. If it wasn’t, then you’d have made yourself feel miserable and unhappy and even judgmental over something that never even existed in the first place.

 

[petronus]

I love the Catholic Church and love the liturgy and sacraments! I am a Roman Rite Catholic, and my church does most of the Mass in English. However, some prayers and chants, including the Gloria, Sanctus, and Pater Noster, are said in Latin.

I never really thought about this until I was asked to explain it to someone, and discovered that I myself did not understand why we use Latin sometimes during Mass.

So…why do Roman Rite Catholics say some prayers in Latin? How is it drawing us closer to God if we do not understand fully what is being said? Is there any church documents or books or websites that explain the reason for Latin in worship simply and well?

Thank you!

Thankfully we don’t have that problem .

All the prayers are in English .

So it is incorrect to infer that Latin Rite Catholics all pray some prayers in Latin .

 

[Elizium23]

Thankfully we don’t have that problem .

I don’t see any “problem”. What kind of “problem” are you referring to?

 

[adawgj]

I see it as universality. Every prayer and hymn is said or sung in the same language. It’s a connection. One may not speak the same vernacular language, but if everybody knew the Latin then there is a better connection to one another.

Also it shows an identity to be a Roman Rite Catholic. Latin is a Roman language.