Why Latin? Why not Latin?

[ConstantineTG]

Oh please. You’re shooting your own credibility here. Christ respected His own language of worship, which was Hebrew. Guess what He would have done to iconoclastic translators inside the Temple at the time?

You are forgetting that rabbis who sit outside the temple and teach would speak to people in their daily tongue. The function of a rabbi in the day was to explain Scripture to people because many do get lost in understanding the ancient Hebrew which is not that common anymore for everyday Jews. And what do people usually call Jesus? Rabbi.

Besides, there is evidence that Christ read the Septuagint which was in Greek.

 

[thirddec]

Hmm . . . the person who accused supporters of Latin of being elitist just pulled what I have always considered the most elitist move of all: Dismissing the issue and implicitly claiming victory. I really wish he would give some details and his solutions (and perhaps his analysis on how things go to be so bad), perhaps on another thread? I would gladly join in this afternoon.

Yes I did , apologies but I still have a serious point, I really am concerned about the fragile nature of the world and the role we as christians have and anything that risks arguements and factions thats not a core principle of our faith and is not about bringing in souls and keeping them protected in the storm i’m expecting worries me.

Whether you agree with me or not I honestly feel the Latin mass is the equivalent of setting the tables properly on the Titanic when the lifeboats need to be getting launched.

I really am concerned with bigger issues and wish more people would see the signs.

What I did before was a bit tongue and cheek too but apologies for any lack of respect.

 

[ZDHayden]

Yes I did , apologies but I still have a serious point, I really am concerned about the fragile nature of the world and the role we as christians have and anything that risks arguements and factions thats not a core principle of our faith and is not about bringing in souls and keeping them protected in the storm i’m expecting worries me.

Whether you agree with me or not I honestly feel the Latin mass is the equivalent of setting the tables properly on the Titanic when the lifeboats need to be getting launched.

I really am concerned with bigger issues and wish more people would see the signs.

What I did before was a bit tongue and cheek too but apologies for any lack of respect.

Fine, I disagree with you about the importance of Latin. I do not think that everyone should know or is even ready for Latin, but to abandon Latin is unwise. There needs to be Latinists within the Church to maintain her heritage for the future. If we lose that, then we lose what unites us - what makes us who we are as a culture. There are those called to address problems, but sometimes those who are called to do that throw out too much - throw out the good with the bad. There are also those who are called to preserve, to keep safe the good, old things. Our disagreement might just mean that you are one and I the other. Let us hope we can work together to heal Christ’s Church.

 

[mangy_dog]

Our Creator distinguished us from other animals by giving us the gift of language. By use of it we become blessed with the gift of communication. We learn that this communication is limited and imperfect because of the sin of Adam and Eve.

But Our Lord nontheless wants to communicate with us by the language of His Holy (and Eternal) Word. He furthermore wants us to communicate with each other to fulfill His commandment of “Love one another”.

Our salvation depends on communication. If it is thwarted, how can we be saved?

Scholars, and other learned people, sometimes fall victim to elitism. They are tempted by pride to elevate themselves by enjoying an understanding of important truths that others, less educated, cannot. This is contrary to God’s will.

And so simplicity in language is pleasing to God because it brings His Creation into closer communication with Him, and His human creatures to each other.

Would Jesus have us speak and communicate in the language that was His as He walked the earth? I think not. Rather He wants us to learn of Him, and to honor Him, in the simple language of our birthplace.

If our Church is truly “catholic”, it will not be limited by powers, principalities, or languages, but rather will take on a truly “universal” disposition.

Our church is truly Catholic and Latin is the unifying language of the Sacred Sacrifice of the Mass. There was a time 1962 and prior when it didn’t matter where you were in the world, if you were at mass, it was the same everywhere - not just because of the Latin but also because the mass was the same everywhere. As opposed to today where we have versus populi and ad orientem; vernacular and Latin etc etc.

The Lord did give us a language to speak in everyday life and He also gave us a unifying language to conmemorate His Sacrifice in the Mass. There is no aspect of the church hierarchy that corresponds to your characterization of powers and principalities ], that refers to fallen angels that strive for disunion among christians.

The generations since 1962 have fallen into a complacent laziness as to the devotion and reverence to the holy traditions of the Catholic church. We’ve fallen into an attitude of “it’s good enough” and " it’s not necessary".

We even make the mistake of calling ourselves “Catholic Christians” as if the distinction had to be made.

Catholics are Christians…we are the original Christians. When we say that we are Catholic…we have said it all.

 

[thirddec]

I just asked my mum 70’s from a pious rural community in Ireland; does she remember the Latin mass. She said yes. I asked her did she understand what was going on; she said no so the younger people just used the Rosary crucifixes to cut their names into seats and try to chat to their mates while the priest with his back to them was getting on with it. I asked what about the adults. She said the all sat saying the rosary as the priest kep’t doing his thing. The women all on one side of church ; men on other but a great collection of men at the back of the church chattting to each other as the priest got in with it. So I asked her how would she compare things now; well she said all the rosary beads are gone in mass and people are watching thee priest. So maybe you guys are right lets get back to the gold old days. She does concede that if she goes to Latin mass now she does find it nice but thinks this could be nostalgia. Remember the older people of these congregation were people who as children could have been shot for going to mass so were faithfull to their beliefs.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The Lord did give us a language to speak in everyday life and He also gave us a unifying language to conmemorate His Sacrifice in the Mass. There is no aspect of the church hierarchy that corresponds to your characterization of powers and principalities ], that refers to fallen angels that strive for disunion among christians.

The Lord never gave us a “unifying language”. From the beginning the faith was always taught in the language that the target audience understood. The Apostles were even gifted with tongues at Pentecost so that they may speak in the different languages of the people. There is never a point in the entire 2000 year history of the Church that the entire Church spoke one language. So the Roman Church speaks Latin, the Greek Church speaks Greek, the Slavs speak Slavonic, where is unity there if unity can only be found in language? No. We are not united in language, we are united in Christ.

 

[mangy_dog]

I just asked my mum 70’s from a pious rural community in Ireland; does she remember the Latin mass. She said yes. I asked her did she understand what was going on; she said no so the younger people just used the Rosary crucifixes to cut their names into seats and try to chat to their mates while the priest with his back to them was getting on with it. I asked what about the adults. She said the all sat saying the rosary as the priest kep’t doing his thing. The women all on one side of church ; men on other but a great collection of men at the back of the church chattting to each other as the priest got in with it. So I asked her how would she compare things now; well she said all the rosary beads are gone in mass and people are watching thee priest. So maybe you guys are right lets get back to the gold old days. She does concede that if she goes to Latin mass now she does find it nice but thinks this could be nostalgia. Remember the older people of these congregation were people who as children could have been shot for going to mass so were faithfull to their beliefs.

Ireland in the 70’s,… you’re right, at that time church was “sanctuary” in more ways than one.

This scenario is not typical and I agree with you that the churchgoers of that era may have been distracted but I am also sure that there must’ve been some who recieved greater benefit from the mass.

I certainly remember that era (Jersey City, NJ in the mid to late 60’s) and it is not mere nostalgia but a true yearning for the true purity and holiness of the Sacred Sacrifice of the Mass.

God bless you my friend.

 

[mangy_dog]

The Lord never gave us a “unifying language”. From the beginning the faith was always taught in the language that the target audience understood. The Apostles were even gifted with tongues at Pentecost so that they may speak in the different languages of the people. There is never a point in the entire 2000 year history of the Church that the entire Church spoke one language. So the Roman Church speaks Latin, the Greek Church speaks Greek, the Slavs speak Slavonic, where is unity there if unity can only be found in language? No. We are not united in language, we are united in Christ.

The convolution of your [facts] is remarkably disinformative.

We are talking specifically of the Sacred Sacrifice of the Mass and not of the teachings that were done in this or that location.

The miraculous sign of tongues at Pentecost had it’s specific purpose. The Apostles didn’t use the gift of tongues to say the mass in their language and for people to hear it in their’s.

What each country speaks and the language that is used for the Sacred Sacrifice of the Mass are two separate things.

This has persisted through the centuries…I promise you, the Lord did intend for the Mass to be said in this manner and language.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The convolution of your [facts] is remarkably disinformative.

We are talking specifically of the Sacred Sacrifice of the Mass and not of the teachings that were done in this or that location.

The miraculous sign of tongues at Pentecost had it’s specific purpose. The Apostles didn’t use the gift of tongues to say the mass in their language and for people to hear it in their’s.

What each country speaks and the language that is used for the Sacred Sacrifice of the Mass are two separate things.

This has persisted through the centuries…I promise you, the Lord did intend for the Mass to be said in this manner and language.

The Liturgy itself is expressed in different traditions and different languages. The Mass is just one expression of the Liturgy in the Roman tradition. There are 22 other traditions in the Catholic Church. Even the Roman Church used Greek for its Liturgies for the first 3 centuries. As I said in my post, even if the Roman Church were to unify with Latin in its Liturgy, what of the 22 other Churches who have never used Latin ever in their Liturgies?

 

[InquisitorMax]

Actually, you do need to understand every word, every action of Mass. Its the basis of Catechism. Liturgy reflects the entire faith. The words and symbolism should also catechize people.

This is just bland generalisation. Let me be specific: a Mass is said by a priest on behalf of a people and is directed towards God. Based on what you’re saying, Masses before 1970 were deficient and seriously so. That is simply wrong.

However, this is right “The words and symbolism should catechise people”. With a special language, they are being taught that the event is special.

 

[mangy_dog]

The Liturgy itself is expressed in different traditions and different languages. The Mass is just one expression of the Liturgy in the Roman tradition. There are 22 other traditions in the Catholic Church. Even the Roman Church used Greek for its Liturgies for the first 3 centuries. As I said in my post, even if the Roman Church were to unify with Latin in its Liturgy, what of the 22 other Churches who have never used Latin ever in their Liturgies?

From convolution to lucidity…I’m impressed.

Traditionally all the cannons were said in Latin. Homilies for example have alway been said in the vernacular.

Those are my 2 cents (I can’t remember what the character code is for “cents”) but then again, you don’t need my two cents. You have enough compelling arguments in this forum from people that are more knowledgeable and wise than and old mangy dog.

 

[ConstantineTG]

This is just bland generalisation. Let me be specific: a Mass is said by a priest on behalf of a people and is directed towards God. Based on what you’re saying, Masses before 1970 were deficient and seriously so. That is simply wrong.

However, this is right “The words and symbolism should catechise people”. With a special language, they are being taught that the event is special.

With a special language they do not understand at all, they grasp nothing. Christ is alive, the Liturgy is alive, the faith is alive. Why use a dead language?

 

[ConstantineTG]

From convolution to lucidity…I’m impressed.

Traditionally all the cannons were said in Latin. Homilies for example have alway been said in the vernacular.

Those are my 2 cents (I can’t remember what the character code is for “cents”) but then again, you don’t need my two cents. You have enough compelling arguments in this forum from people that are more knowledgeable and wise than and old mangy dog.

Mangy, are you understanding what I am saying? That the Catholic Church is much larger than the Roman Catholic Church. I’m talking about all 23 Catholic Churches in communion with Rome. The Eastern Churches never used Latin for a single second in their 2000 year existence. If Latin is unifying, then it only unifies the west and we left out a significant half our our faith. Therefore its false to assume that language in Liturgy unifies anything because the Liturgical language of the Church as a whole never was one and the same language anywhere at any given time. It is faith in Christ that unifies, and this faith is expressed in many different languages, in many different traditions.

 

[thirddec]

God does have a language ; and it is a language we all speak and know from birth to death. It is the Sacred Language. It is the Language of the heart and there is no language comes near it ; the rest are the same second rate. When mystics try to describe Heaven; Hell ; God ; Angels etc they are all unanimous that mere words are no good. So to try and elevate any other language is the height of stupidity. I doubt Latin would be any better at describing the reality of God.

 

[ProVobis]

As I said in my post, even if the Roman Church were to unify with Latin in its Liturgy, what of the 22 other Churches who have never used Latin ever in their Liturgies?

This seems to imply that if you take all the Catholic liturgies and translate them into Latin, whether they’re accurate or not, everything should be okay. No one is saying that, to my knowledge. It’s possible, in fact likely, that heresies and misunderstandings can develop with such an undertaking. Each national language and all documents expressed in them have their own purpose and intent. Each worship language and all documents expressed in them have their own purpose and intent. It would be most coincidental to find two languages with exactly the same purpose and intent. If you want to use your own vernacular to write your own liturgy, fine, be like the Church of England. But just don’t call it the Latin Mass in your vernacular.

 

[thirddec]

Look guys lets end this and just get back to what we can all agree on. I’m all for setting the table at my house and puting out the bread and wine and getting the Priest over.

As I said in another thread there seems to be some Idea of some Golden Age in the past for Christianity but there wasn’t. The Church has been growing and developing over timwe as is the nature of everything in creation, even rocks get changes over time. Let it continue to grow naturally forward towards the Golden Age that we know is to come in the Future.

 

[ZDHayden]

Look guys lets end this and just get back to what we can all agree on. I’m all for setting the table at my house and puting out the bread and wine and getting the Priest over.

As I said in another thread there seems to be some Idea of some Golden Age in the past for Christianity but there wasn’t. The Church has been growing and developing over timwe as is the nature of everything in creation, even rocks get changes over time. Let it continue to grow naturally forward towards the Golden Age that we know is to come in the Future.

The “Golden Age” will not come until all are in our Lord’s Arms. The best we can get now is maybe fire.

 

[InquisitorMax]

With a special language they do not understand at all, they grasp nothing.

[sarcasm]Those poor people. Can’t even learn the repetitive prayers, of a simple language, in a rite which they are not the primary focus, anyway[/sarcasm]

Christ is alive, the Liturgy is alive, the faith is alive. Why use a dead language?

This is a meaningless non-sequitur, but it sounds good. If you don’t actually think about it. It’s the sort of guff were were fed by certain types of religious, in school, in place of solid theology. I remember being very bored.

 

[Elijah_Baley]

Post-conciliar heterodox reforms throughout parishes stripped phrases full of meaning in a language people did not understand and replaced them with bland generalities badly expressed in a language people did understand. No wonder there was a falling away of the faithful!

Great liturgy in the vernacular could be a wonderful thing. I’ve seen close-to-great liturgy in the vernacular, but only in specific Mass communities which have retained or reconstructed psalmtones, Gregorian chant and excellent, orthodox homilists.

 

[Catholic41506]

I <3 Latin.