Why Latin? Why not Latin?

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I should being by saying that I have no problem with Latin in liturgy. Having said that I believe that there are several currents involved here that have to be given special attention.

Cardinal Arinze is correct, but I think that he is being quoted incorrectly. The poor man is quoted incorrectly on TC Forum than anyone one else I know. OK, maybe not as much as poor Aquinas. 😦

There is something to be said about human beings aspiring to toward the transcendent and language helps. I believe this is what the Cardinal is saying. His statement is not against the use of the vernacular in liturgy. It’s an explanation of why the use of Latin works for so many people. We have to be very careful not to take a statement and turn it around to say what it was not meant to say. That’s one current that we see in this forum. There are many who quote whatever they can find to support their position. That’s not fair. One has to use these statements as they are and in the context that they were made.

The other current is a little more challenging. Unlike the other examples given: Hindus, Muslims, Jews, and other Catholics, the Roman Church has a great challenge. It’s no longer Roman. It’s not the Church of a particular group of people from a particular culture. The other examples that have been given: Greek Orthodox and Greek Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and others are small groups compared to the Roman Church. Their composition is generally people who share a particular culture, not just the same religious belief. Roman Catholics no longer share one culture. With the expansion of the Roman Church beyond the boundaries of the Holy Roman Empire and later to other continents, other peoples were brought into the Church. This is good. I’m glad they came. However, we have to admit that they don’t all have the Roman background. For many of them, Latin is not only a foreign language, but often the language of their enemies and their oppressors.

I was a missionary in South America, in the Amazon region. Those people are very skittish about anything that is too European. They have very long memories. They’re still fighting acculturation from the outside. The approach to introducing Latin to those communities has to be very tactful and it has to be made very clear that this is not the language of the European Conquistadores. I know that one thing that made Evangelization of the indigenous people of the Amazon easier was that both Dominicans and Franciscans used the local languages in liturgy as much as possible as early as the 16th century. The Church allowed the missionaries some room to accommodate Guarani, Quechua and Tahino into the liturgical life of the community, even if it was just something as simple as using music and hymns in the local language. The point is that people are oriented toward the sacred, but in a Church that includes as many cultures and language groups as the Roman Catholic Church, there are some very real cultural challenges that cannot be ignored. For the Catholic of European ancestry, the idea of Latin as a sacred language is much easier to accept than it is to the Catholic who has no connections to Europe.

The third current has to do with the secular world. Unfortunately, classical studies are no longer prominent in today’s western education system. People don’t have the same appreciation for Latin or ancient Greek as they once had. Among Muslims and Jews, especially, education is still very grounded in their history and culture. They don’t just pray in their mother tongue. They study other things in their mother tongue as well. How many students today read Cicero in Europe and American schools? In the more developed nations we seem to have lost our appreciation for the historical. Instead of thinking of something as part of history, we think of it as old. That does not help. I’m not sure how to turn that tide around.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Br JR, you raise excellent points but FWIW I don’t think the number of Muslims and Hindus is insignificant compared with those of the Catholic Church, especially where the number of actual worshippers is concerned. Seems as if the only religion of significant size using vernacular (or rather, translations) up till the Vatican II council were the Protestants. I’m not counting the Eastern Rites which use much older and more immutable languages. But I guess we can always debate about what differentiates a worship language from a more secular vernacular.
 
[sarcasm]Those poor people. Can’t even learn the repetitive prayers, of a simple language, in a rite which they are not the primary focus, anyway[/sarcasm]
Don’t tell me you are quite a handyman who can do carpentry, plumbing and also be your own mechanic when your car breaks down. Surely such simple jobs can be learned by anyone, 'no? They why don’t all people know these simple tasks so they don’t have to pay astronomical amounts to handymen when something breaks at their home or car?

Your reasoning may be logical, but is not practical at all. Anyone can learn to be a carpenter or a mechanic or a plumber. But not everyone has the time to do so, there are more important things in their lives to do. Same with Latin. You and the people here at the Traditional forum have the time and interest to learn Latin. Good for you. But news flash, over 99% of the population of the world doesn’t have the interest nor the time that you guys have.
This is a meaningless non-sequitur, but it sounds good. If you don’t actually think about it. It’s the sort of guff were were fed by certain types of religious, in school, in place of solid theology. I remember being very bored.
That quote didn’t come from me, although I must admit I did paraphrase a bit. It came from Maximos IV Sayegh, Patriarch of the Melkites, around the time of Vatican II. He said that addressing the Bishops at Vatican II.

So are you saying a Patriarch of a Catholic Church doesn’t know what he is talking about here?
 
This seems to imply that if you take all the Catholic liturgies and translate them into Latin, whether they’re accurate or not, everything should be okay. No one is saying that, to my knowledge. It’s possible, in fact likely, that heresies and misunderstandings can develop with such an undertaking. Each national language and all documents expressed in them have their own purpose and intent. Each worship language and all documents expressed in them have their own purpose and intent. It would be most coincidental to find two languages with exactly the same purpose and intent. If you want to use your own vernacular to write your own liturgy, fine, be like the Church of England. But just don’t call it the Latin Mass in your vernacular.
I’m not implying anything. I’m answering people here who say that Latin is a unifying language. Unifying for whom? If the Roman Catholics unify through Latin, what of the other Catholic Churches who doesn’t use Latin and never has? My point is that language is not the unifying point of our Church, never was. It was always faith in Christ. To say that Latin is unifying is a false assumption and conclusion.
 
In my neck of the woods we have masses for every language. Polish, Philipino, Sudanese, Youth.
The only language which is detested and basically resisted like the plague is Latin.
In fact we have chaos. My son when he visited another city struggled to find a mass, he ended up attending a polish mass. He did not understand a word. The result is that people in our catholic community segregate off into their language/cultural groupings instead of being united in the geographic region. That is tragic and strikes at the heart of our catholicity.
In the old days everybody had a missal in Latin which had their translation in their language. Good translations too, not the horrible dumbed-down translations that we have had to endure since the 70’s.
So going vernacular has not helped. Prior to the 1960’s we had many sacred things in our church. Sacred alter, sacred sanctuary, sacred chalice, sacred scriptures etc. The priests themselve are sacred. Why not a sacred language also?
Ditching Latin was never intended by the Vatican 2 council. It allowed for sparing use of the vernacular in certain places in the mass, but not the wholesale removal of Latin which has occurred. Likewise, removal of altars, altar rails, communion in the hand, eucharistic ministers etc. all go down to breaking down the awareness of the sacred, in particular the sacred and real presence of our Lord in the Eucharist.

Another tragic side effect of ditching Latin is the almost complete loss of gregorian chant in our churches. I have heard gregorian chant using English and sorry guys, good effort, but it just does not work. As far as I am concerned until you have spent a couple of years attending a Latin mass and becoming familiar with Gregorian chant, you just don’t know sacred music is.

Now of course the people who disagree with me on this point of Gregorian chant are themselves ignorant and blind. They have not spent a year or two listening to gregorian chant, probably not even one day listening to it. So this means that because I am educated in gregorian chant and they are not, that therefore I am elitist. But the whole point of the mass is to lift our souls to heaven out of the commonplace and mundanity of this world.

The abandonment of latin has resulted in the abandonment of a great treasure of the church and of the world. The church has basically lost her song; and left without a voice. Thank the Lord that in major cities throughout the world there are traditional Catholics preserving these treasures for future generations to rediscover them. Which they will of course. But we can either be on the vanguard of that rediscovery and experience it for ourselves, or else we can leave it to our grandchildren to be bothered with.

Of course, we should all favour the former, and do what we can to restore gregorian chant in Latin to our parishes. It could start by just singing the Kyrie. Anyway I’ve gone on long enough. Please bring back Latin and gregorian chant and recapture a great treasure of our church.
 
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Of course, we should all favour the former, and do what we can to restore gregorian chant in Latin to our parishes. It could start by just singing the Kyrie. Anyway I’ve gone on long enough. Please bring back Latin and gregorian chant and recapture a great treasure of our church.
I thank God that I found a Parish that not only has a TLM at 9AM, which I mostly don’t make because of the time, but it also has a very reverent OF mass at 11. In fact today on Holy Thursday,. there was a solemn mass and I heard someone say as she left, “Boy a lot of ritual”!

– The choir only sings Gregorian chants and other sacred music (all in Latin).
– The congregation sings the Credo in Latin (I really need to learn that).
– We sing the Agnus Dei in Latin instead of murmuring Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world"
– The Priest does a fair amount of the consecration in Latin.

We do also have some of the liturgy found in the OF, like the “Praise to You Lord Jesus Christ,. King of Endless Glory”, and the “Lord Hear Our Prayer”, which is sung.

You mix those OF elements with the Latin elements and the mass is even more reverent than the masses on EWTN.

The pastor is a little older, so I pray for long life.
 
Please bring back Latin and gregorian chant and recapture a great treasure of our church.
I have no problem with this as long as it is made very clear that the faithful understand and accept that parishes run by religious orders that do not have and have never had a tradition of Gregorian Chant or where this has been forbidden, will comply and not expect these religious to use it in those parishes. That’s the way that it used to be before Vatican II.

Parishes run by religious that were not allowed to use Gregorian chant never used it. They used what was allowed to the religious. Actually, no one was the wiser, because the people in the Franaciscan parish, didn’t know what was going on down the street in the Redemptorist parish, nor up the road in the Assumptionist parish and so forth.

Of course, they didn’t have Internet or cell phones either. 😃

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Don’t tell me you are quite a handyman who can do carpentry, plumbing and also be your own mechanic when your car breaks down. Surely such simple jobs can be learned by anyone, 'no? They why don’t all people know these simple tasks so they don’t have to pay astronomical amounts to handymen when something breaks at their home or car?

Your reasoning may be logical, but is not practical at all. Anyone can learn to be a carpenter or a mechanic or a plumber. But not everyone has the time to do so, there are more important things in their lives to do. Same with Latin. You and the people here at the Traditional forum have the time and interest to learn Latin. Good for you. But news flash, over 99% of the population of the world doesn’t have the interest nor the time that you guys have.
You’re speaking for a lot of people there. And I can do repair work. Many people can. In the past, many poor people, with no formal education, repaired their clothes, homes, learned to read at home, etc.

What you are saying, with no grounds, is that the Faithful can’t/won’t learn Latin.

It would be more accurate to say that a diminishing generation of old liberals are committed to the idea that they’ll not have the chance, if for no other reason than the return of the old rite and how it is said is a living rebuke to how the new one is commonly said and the ideology that goes with that. If the old rite and how it is said becomes popular, it means times-up for all the crowd-pleasing, anti-Romanism and anti-clericalism that went before.
That quote didn’t come from me, although I must admit I did paraphrase a bit. It came from Maximos IV Sayegh, Patriarch of the Melkites, around the time of Vatican II. He said that addressing the Bishops at Vatican II.

So are you saying a Patriarch of a Catholic Church doesn’t know what he is talking about here?
Heh heh, good one. Bait-a-traditonalist tactic # 1.
 
Don’t tell me you are quite a handyman who can do carpentry, plumbing and also be your own mechanic when your car breaks down. Surely such simple jobs can be learned by anyone, 'no? They why don’t all people know these simple tasks so they don’t have to pay astronomical amounts to handymen when something breaks at their home or car?

Your reasoning may be logical, but is not practical at all. Anyone can learn to be a carpenter or a mechanic or a plumber. But not everyone has the time to do so, there are more important things in their lives to do. Same with Latin. You and the people here at the Traditional forum have the time and interest to learn Latin. Good for you. But news flash, over 99% of the population of the world doesn’t have the interest nor the time that you guys have.
News flash for your news flash. 99% of the worlds population does not have the time or interest to learn the doctrines of the church, or the rites and practices of the church. Why then do we bother with Catechesis? The fact is that a good knowledge of the history, teachings, practices and commands of the church is essential to our faith. As others have pointed out, going back into not that distant history, the catholic school children learned a good dose of Latin. Because of this foundation of teaching the seminarians all learned Latin to a high level of skill and mastery.
As Americans, English, Australians etc, we are all expected to take the time to learn the language, laws and customs of our country even if it is not our native country and English is not our native language.

Why then as citizens of the City of God should we not also be expected, even to desire, to learn the language, teachings, customs and laws of our adopted nation, the Christian church.
Of course we should. And the literate amongst us have the greater obligation to give up trivial pastimes in order to learn the history and roots of our faith.

In fact the reluctance to engage with Latin is nothing more than laziness and a cultural cringe which causes us to think that our non-catholic neighbours will be offended or amused by our use of Latin.

Latin is a beautiful tongue. It has a sacred feel to it especially when set to chant.
Indigenous people throughout the world strive to preserve their tribal languages even though their children all speak English. Fan’s of Tolkien go to all the trouble of learning Elvish elvish.meetup.com/. Many modern video games such as Runescape have entire languages developed to bring a certain style to the game. The biggest selling film of all time Avatar invented a language Na’vi. learnnavi.org/ You can even get a mobile application to help you learn Na’vi which thousands of people use.

So if fans of a motion picture can have the time and inclination to learn a language invented less than ten years ago. Then why cannot the followers of an ancient religion which has used an ancient language for 2000 years have the inclination to use that language? Are we less devoted to our religion than fans are devoted to their motion picture?

Hebrew was a dead language unspoken for centuries. In the late 19th Century and early 20th century it was resurrected it and now it is the national and widely spoken language of Israel. But somehow, even though our church leaders constantly call for Latin to be returned to our sacred halls, we have less “time or inclination” to learn our church language than the Jews and the Avatar followers have to learn there’s.
In fact we actually do the reverse, we put out strident effort to rid our parishes of Latin with a mistaken belief that we are serving the purposes of Vatican 2. We rise up in anger against those who try to reintroduce Latin to our parish. One guy here even mocked at the suggestion that we introduce a simple Latin chant into our local parish mass.

Not good enough. Not good enough at all.
 
Latin is a beautiful tongue. It has a sacred feel to it especially when set to chant.
Now this sound like a muslim explaining how to hear the Quran chanted in arabaic is so clearly beautifull that it is like hearing God himself talking and the total belief that everyone that doesnt agree must be lying. 😃
 
Now this sound like a muslim explaining how to hear the Quran chanted in arabaic is so clearly beautifull that it is like hearing God himself talking and the total belief that everyone that doesnt agree must be lying. 😃
So are you now also denigrating the muslims love for his ancient language? The church has never prevented the Eastern Catholics from celebrating their liturgies in their ancient languages in fact the church has supported it. Do you believe that people claim they are moved to hear the voice of God and angels in their liturgies and chants are also lying?

Besides, how is it that you feel that I or anyone else is accusing you of lying? I never even inferred such a thing. The OP made a good point. It would be unthinkable to strip Arabic out of the muslim religion, or Hebrew out of the Jewish religion. But we have rushed like mad bulls to strip out Latin from the Roman church. Like bulls in a china shop we have also stripped out everything that reminds us of our ancient roots. Including altars, altar rails, communion on the tongue, prayers facing the altar, novenas, litanies, shall I go on and on. It has been a display of cultural barbarism and as the Pope himself said as Cardinal a banal on the spot fabrication. He said.
"What happened after the Council was totally different: in the place of liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy.

We left the living process of growth and development to enter the realm of fabrication. There was no longer a desire to continue developing and maturing, as the centuries passed and so this was replaced–as if it were a technical production–with a construction, a banal on-the-spot product."
 
So are you now also denigrating the muslims love for his ancient language? The church has never prevented the Eastern Catholics from celebrating their liturgies in their ancient languages in fact the church has supported it. Do you believe that people claim they are moved to hear the voice of God and angels in their liturgies and chants are also lying?

Besides, how is it that you feel that I or anyone else is accusing you of lying? I never even inferred such a thing. The OP made a good point. It would be unthinkable to strip Arabic out of the muslim religion, or Hebrew out of the Jewish religion. But we have rushed like mad bulls to strip out Latin from the Roman church. Like bulls in a china shop we have also stripped out everything that reminds us of our ancient roots. Including altars, altar rails, communion on the tongue, prayers facing the altar, novenas, litanies, shall I go on and on. It has been a display of cultural barbarism and as the Pope himself said as Cardinal a banal on the spot fabrication. He said.
"What happened after the Council was totally different: in the place of liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy.

We left the living process of growth and development to enter the realm of fabrication. There was no longer a desire to continue developing and maturing, as the centuries passed and so this was replaced–as if it were a technical production–with a construction, a banal on-the-spot product."
No I am denigrating those people who are so full of themselves and their views that the seem to think that their view is " a self evident truth" and that anyone else who can’t see it is either a fool; or just stubborn or EVIL. Now this would be fine if it were on an Important theologiacl point where one would be at risk of loss of heaven but whether I think Latin sounds sacred or not really!!! I think Gaelic sounds AWESOME too. Muslims even believe that the sound of the Quran when chanted in arabic is a proof its from God. If you believe Latin sounds Sacred thats fine but its subjective. When the Apostles and Christians were being condemned to death in Rome did it sounded sacred then too. Was it sacred when the Romans were worshiping gods and godessess. The only reason we use Latin has nothing to do with sacredness and everything to do with practicality.

Love your Latin; but God expects me to LOVE HIM AND MY NEIGHBOUR and he won’t be sending me to hell for not learning Latin. 😃
 
No I am denigrating those people who are so full of themselves and their views that the seem to think that their view is " a self evident truth" and that anyone else who can’t see it is either a fool; or just stubborn or EVIL.
Who are these mythical people that you believe are worthy of denigration? I have never met such a person. Are you suggesting that I am such a person?
Love your Latin; but God expects me to LOVE HIM AND MY NEIGHBOUR and he won’t be sending me to hell for not learning Latin. 😃
Typical sensationalism. Where did I advocate that Love of Latin was a substitute of Loving God and our neighbour? Why not love both. Where did I suggest that by not learning Latin a person would go to hell. That’s ridiculous to suggest. Does that mean that all virtuous things are done to avoid going to hell?
 
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