Why Latin?

[Sister_Amy]

Sister Amy… Have you ever attended a Tridentine mass? The readings are in English and the homily (sermon) too… the rest is in Latin… It is without a doubt one of the most beautiful experiences. Seriously! You can feel the holiness during a Tridentine mass… Try it some time… I am betting you wll feel it too!

I attended a mass only once in my life, and I don’t know if it was Tridentine or not (dunno what that means.) It was in a French village and I don’t speak French or Latin so I couldn’t tell you how much was in either language. And I wouldn’t use it as a reference to judge services in other countries. (Or any mass at all since I didn’t understand any of it.)

But I had heard that Pope Benedict XVI had allowed for services to be performed entirely in Latin instead of the vernacular and it struck me as a pretty foolish thing to do, harkening to archaic and esoteric ways.

 

[mercygate]

I attended a mass only once in my life, and I don’t know if it was Tridentine or not (dunno what that means.) It was in a French village and I don’t speak French or Latin so I couldn’t tell you how much was in either language. And I wouldn’t use it as a reference to judge services in other countries. (Or any mass at all since I didn’t understand any of it.)

But I had heard that Pope Benedict XVI had allowed for services to be performed entirely in Latin instead of the vernacular and it struck me as a pretty foolish thing to do, harkening to archaic and esoteric ways.

You misunderstand the scope of the Pope’s “allowance”. He is stating that any priest may celebrate the old Latin Mass without having to get permission from his bishop.

The old (Tridentine) Latin Mass fell into disuse in the 1970s but many Catholics today remember it very well. Many younger Catholics came to appreciate it in those few places where it has been available over the past several decades.

The Pope has not mandated a wholesale return to the older form of the Mass. He is allowing those for whom it has profound meaning to celebrate it. And he has encouraged the use of Latin for those parts of the Mass that do not change. If you are famliar with the Western musical tradition, you know that many composers have written Masses. A choral singer will be familiar with the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei, and Pater Noster in Latin – and he wouldn’t even have to be Catholic. These portions of the Catholic Mass belong to EVERYBODY!

 

[ibkc]

But I had heard that Pope Benedict XVI had allowed for services to be performed entirely in Latin instead of the vernacular and it struck me as a pretty foolish thing to do, harkening to archaic and esoteric ways.

Oh my goodness, I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but this is seriously funny coming from a western convert to Islam who wishes to move to Saudi Arabia. The irony is simply hilarious.

There are pros and cons to using Latin. They’ve been enumerated. One pro that has not been mentioned (that I have noticed) is the fact that the mass features a lot of repetition, and it doesn’t take more than a few times of hearing the Latin to at least be able to understand what is going on.

Also, a sharp, well-read person will also be able to suss out some of the meaning right from the start because Latin is an important root language for most of the European tongues. As an example, O.S. Luke posted a phrase upthread that contained a slang term for excrement, which I immediately recognized because it is virtually the same in French.

 

[VociMike]

Sister Amy, perhaps you would like to address the 5 points I made in favor of Latin.

 

[Sister_Amy]

You asked me to reply, so I will. But I’m not Catholic and frankly what Catholics do in their services isn’t my business. I don’t mean to attack anyone.

A few reasons I can think of.

1. It becomes unifying rather than dividing. Whatever language you speak, you can attend Mass and understand it (perhaps with the aid of a missal, which is very common). Parishes now are often language-divided - the English Mass, the Spanish Mass, the Creole Mass, the Vietnamese Mass, etc.

And the Latin mass? Unless everyone understands it, it’s still dividing.

1. The Latin language is frozen, it is not changing in meaning. Living languages are constantly changing. Imagine today having a prayer that spoke of being gay in God’s presence.

Why can’t you change the prayer? Did God say you have to pray with that word?

1. Liturgies and prayers must be translated from the “official” language, and that places people at the mercy of translation committees which, experience has proven, often have their own agendas.

So? If people don’t understand most of it, what’s the point?

1. Combining (2) and (3), translations must be updated every generation or two. Subtle differences in the words must be learned. The liturgy is always fluid, never stable.

But comprehensible.

1. Every language group must now come up with an entire set of liturgical music in their language. Further, this music must be revised for each new translation. This is a formula for mediocrity and crank-it-out music. The result is music of very low average quality and staying power. Compare that to the 1500 year tradition of Catholic music in Latin, recognized the world over as a treasure of human artistry. By contrast, what contemporary English-language sacred music is likely to be valued and sung 500 or 1000 years from now? Thus, not only is unity with other language groups damaged, but unity with the faithful who have gone before us is also damaged. Each language group becomes isolated both in space and in time.

Well that allows for new human artistry now, doesn’t it?

It doesn’t benefit me one way or the other if the mass is in Latin or not, I just asked a question. And it has been answered.

 

[kalt]

A service which is intended for the general populus ought to be understood by them. Here in the US Muslims will have sermons in English… and even might have extra shifts in the Somali language for a large population of Somalians who aren’t fluent in English. The purpose is for them to understand the message being preached to them.

The Qur’an has been translated for meaning, so anyone should be able to grasp at understanding it.

But recitation of it, and the prayers–that is in Arabic. A universal language, of sorts. A person can pray the same prayer anywhere in the world, and don’t need to be fluent in Arabic, just only need to learn what’s in the prayers, which is pretty simply. The Qur’an uses less than 2% of the Arabic vocabulary so it is also relatively easy to learn, although there are translations which most people use to understand instead.

If someone is going to come to mass, it might be they have to learn Latin just to understand. And in fact, that doesn’t bode well for universality.

Jews at least have scripture that was revealed in Hebrew, a good reason to maintain the study and use of Hebrew in services. The same for Muslims and Arabic.

Christians don’t have that, though… so it seems strange and artificial to me to adhere to the Latin as if it’s somehow holier or better than another language… when that’s not quite backed up in its historical traditions.

Why do you care what language the Catholic Church uses? Why do you think Latin isn’t a valid choice?

 

[kalt]

Oh my goodness, I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but this is seriously funny coming from a western convert to Islam who wishes to move to Saudi Arabia. The irony is simply hilarious.

There are pros and cons to using Latin. They’ve been enumerated. One pro that has not been mentioned (that I have noticed) is the fact that the mass features a lot of repetition, and it doesn’t take more than a few times of hearing the Latin to at least be able to understand what is going on.

Also, a sharp, well-read person will also be able to suss out some of the meaning right from the start because Latin is an important root language for most of the European tongues. As an example, O.S. Luke posted a phrase upthread that contained a slang term for excrement, which I immediately recognized because it is virtually the same in French.

I’ve only been to 2 Bar Mitzvahs, but by the end of the first, I knew a few of the words. By the end of the 2nd, I was participating, understanding many of the words.

I’m sure I could learn Latin.

Is the homily also in Latin?

 

[mercygate]

I’ve only been to 2 Bar Mitzvahs, but by the end of the first, I knew a few of the words. By the end of the 2nd, I was participating, understanding many of the words.

Mazel tov!

I’m sure I could learn Latin.

You don’t need to “learn Latin” – all you have to learn is the meaning of the standard parts of the Mass to know what’s going on.

Is the homily also in Latin?The Scripture readings at the TLM are done twice: once in Latin, and once in the vernacular. The homily is in the vernacular.

 

[inJESUS]

I call this a much ado about nothing. Aramaic is not my first language, yet i understand the few sentences said in Aramaic because i chose to and because Arabic is derived from it…and since they are the same each time, i’d be really stupid for not understanding the meaning of them…so i fail to understand the depth of this argument, specifically uttered by Amy who has to use Arabic that has nothing in common with her native language and which is totally alien if no great effort was put to both understand and utter the alphabets not found in English.

Mercygate, thank you

 

[VociMike]

You asked me to reply, so I will. But I’m not Catholic and frankly what Catholics do in their services isn’t my business. I don’t mean to attack anyone.

And the Latin mass? Unless everyone understands it, it’s still dividing.

So? If people don’t understand most of it, what’s the point?

But comprehensible.

We’re not talking about understanding the entire Encyclopedia Britannica in Latin. We’re talking mostly about fixed prayers that are repreated at each Mass, and we’re talking about having missals. You are vastly exaggerating the issue.

Why can’t you change the prayer? Did God say you have to pray with that word?

Sure, but these things take time. If you have liturgies in 200 vernacular languages you’re going to be changing something, somewhere, all the time. The prayers you learn as a child won’t be the prayers you say as an adult won’t be the prayers you say in your old age. How is this a good thing?

Well that allows for new human artistry now, doesn’t it?

To make such a reply I really don’t think you are bringing an objective ear to my comments. 1500 years of the greatest choral music on the planet is not comparable to cookie-cutter, forgotten in a year (or decade), imitation pop music. The plain fact is, there has been essentially no “new human artistry” in the past 40 years as far as vernacular sacred music. Nothing that will be remembered and valued and sung in 100 years or 500 or 1000. And that’s a loss for us and for the worship due to God.

 

[HashemEchad]

Why can’t we all respect the traditions of all our religions? Why the need to put one above the other, on insult one over the other?

Amy, as for your question: I’ve attended several Tridentine Masses in the past (1970s, under the auspices of independent Roman Catholic groups, such as the ORCM and the SSPX).

The word “Tridentine” means it was codified by the Council of Trent. It is in Latin, but the use of the term, “Latin Mass” can be deceptive, because the novus ordo (“new mass”) is also sometimes in Latin.

The Tridentine Mass was very different, even apart from the language. The priest faced the altar (which to my Jewish eyes, seems far more authentic, since he is supposed to be continuing the sacrifice of Calvary, and when the Jewish Kohen, or priest, offered the sacrifice in the Temple, he faced the altar, not the people…but I digress)

I have also been to a few novus ordo missae (funerals, weddings, etc) and frankly, as a non-Catholic who has always admired aesthetics, classical music, Gregorian chant and sheer beauty, the Tridentine Mass has it all over the new one!

 

[mark_a]

Why would a mass be in Latin, to a population that doesn’t speak Latin?

Is a Muslim call to prayer done in Engish here in the states? Just curious.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I want to thank all of you who have answered my question patiently.

I’m not trying to pick a fight, and I am sincerely sorry if my questions took on a nature that was offensive to anyone.

It was my understanding that a mass included a particular sermon to the congregation… if it’s all the same thing…

Anyway, thanks for the answers. I’m not going to really to discuss Islam here because I’m afraid it will turn into a “my religion/langugae is better than yours” which is pretty pointless.

One more time, thanks for answering.

 

[mercygate]

It was my understanding that a mass included a particular sermon to the congregation… if it’s all the same thing…

Um. It does. That was mentioned several times. Mass includes readings from Scripture, a homily (sermon), and the Eucharistic liturgy. The homily, even in a Latin Mass, is in the vernacular, except for exceptions, such as a great international papal Mass where there is NO vernacular to choose from.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Um. It does. That was mentioned several times. Mass includes readings from Scripture, a homily (sermon), and the Eucharistic liturgy. The homily, even in a Latin Mass, is in the vernacular, except for exceptions, such as a great international papal Mass where there is NO vernacular to choose from.

Okay.

 

[vocatio]

ME. When I was a catholic kid.

Case and Point made…You’re Catholic then. Just as I figured.

Your hangin out her is posibly the Holy Spirit guiding you or you’re Guardian Angel pushing you to learn. Don’t turn off your heart about something you don’t understand. All you need to do is learn. You could easily be brought home. Go to RCIA and learn from a good DRE. Just leave pride out of the equation and open your heart and mind. I’ve been part of Southern Baptists and churches of Christ.

Latinn was the legal language of the time. If you check you’ll find that there are 2 types of Latin. One is used as the official language of the Church primarily because that was the language used to teach and read in law and all.

The ordinary language of the Mass is Latin. However, priests are granted permission to use the vernacular [good idea seeing all these fallen away Catholics here]. I love the language and would love to gain confidence speaking, reading and singing it. I say my rosary in Latin. But that’s just the beginning.

The Greek Orthodox use Greek. But the language used officially in the Catholic Church is Latin. Do not expect that to change. Sure I agree it is forced upon you. But so is learning english, obeying the traffic laws and all too. The Church exercises her authority over the flock as overseers. That is their role. Don’t forget, God doesn’t run a democracy and neither does the Church Authority.

 

[swariffin]

A service which is intended for the general populus ought to be understood by them. Here in the US Muslims will have sermons in English… and even might have extra shifts in the Somali language for a large population of Somalians who aren’t fluent in English. The purpose is for them to understand the message being preached to them.

The Qur’an has been translated for meaning, so anyone should be able to grasp at understanding it.

But recitation of it, and the prayers–that is in Arabic. A universal language, of sorts. A person can pray the same prayer anywhere in the world, and don’t need to be fluent in Arabic, just only need to learn what’s in the prayers, which is pretty simply. The Qur’an uses less than 2% of the Arabic vocabulary so it is also relatively easy to learn, although there are translations which most people use to understand instead.

If someone is going to come to mass, it might be they have to learn Latin just to understand. And in fact, that doesn’t bode well for universality.

Jews at least have scripture that was revealed in Hebrew, a good reason to maintain the study and use of Hebrew in services. The same for Muslims and Arabic.

Christians don’t have that, though… so it seems strange and artificial to me to adhere to the Latin as if it’s somehow holier or better than another language… when that’s not quite backed up in its historical traditions.

Dear Sister,

One of an Islamic “guru” in Indonesia (we called him “ustadz”), were brought to Trial by other Muslim for translating the Arabic recitation of prayer into Indonesian Language. He argued that he allowed his follower to pray using a language that the people understand, rather than using the Arabic they don’t understand. So, to me, a prayer in Arabic cannot be translated. In the RCC all prayers can be translated. Now my next question is, what about an Indonesian who speaks no Arabic and happened to lead the prayer, say the recitation prayer in Arabic but in so horrible pronounciation that even an Arabic can not understand. Will it also be a mistake?

 

[swariffin]

A service which is intended for the general populus ought to be understood by them. Here in the US Muslims will have sermons in English… and even might have extra shifts in the Somali language for a large population of Somalians who aren’t fluent in English. The purpose is for them to understand the message being preached to them.

**The Qur’an has been translated for meaning, so anyone should be able to grasp at understanding it.

But recitation of it, and the prayers–that is in Arabic. A universal language, of sorts. A person can pray the same prayer anywhere in the world, and don’t need to be fluent in Arabic, just only need to learn what’s in the prayers, which is pretty simply. The Qur’an uses less than 2% of the Arabic vocabulary so it is also relatively easy to learn, although there are translations which most people use to understand instead**.

If someone is going to come to mass, it might be they have to learn Latin just to understand. And in fact, that doesn’t bode well for universality.

Jews at least have scripture that was revealed in Hebrew, a good reason to maintain the study and use of Hebrew in services. The same for Muslims and Arabic.

Christians don’t have that, though… so it seems strange and artificial to me to adhere to the Latin as if it’s somehow holier or better than another language… when that’s not quite backed up in its historical traditions.

Dear Sister,

You explain very well about the usage of Arabic in recitation of the prayer for every muslims regardless their origin, but you failed to understand the usage of Latin in the Catholic mass, and even came into a strange conclusion. For instance, none of a catholic in the world will ever agree that Latin is holier than any language in the world. And yet, you as a non-believer can conclude that Latin is somehow holier or better than another language.

I am as an Indonesian is allowed to pray in Indonesian language even loudly without being afraid to be in violation of any Roman Catholic Church doctrine. I only know some Latin words, not even enough to remember a certain prayer completely in Latin. And yet, none of the catholic priest wherever I go will ask me to learn Latin. I don’t even feel the need to learn Latin since all the materials I need to know are available in my language or in english. So, Sister Amy, you are in a wrong view of Latin with respect to the Catholic Church.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Please see my last two posts on the previous page.

 

[Chris_McAvoy]

It provides a universal language, so that any Catholic anywhere in the world can attend a mass and be able to know what is going on.

This is not the perspective of early christianity or eastern christianity.
On an international basis latin should not be used, it was always ment to be regional, for western europe only. To see the whole world using latin in Church this is an entirely modern idea.

If one makes an argument for universal language in some small way…

the most universal words in all liturgies of the entire Church are all greek/aramaic/hebrew.

“Amen, Alleleuia, Kyrie Eleison, Hosanna, Sabaoth”