Why Listen to Catholic Teachings?

[JOE_OBERR]

In discussing the faith with one of our separated brethren (SB) he usually (always) dismisses what I have to say, even if supported by a particular verse in Scripture, e.g. Jn 6 for the Eucharist. It is basically “I was taught such and such on Jn 6 or on the (non) necessity of baptism. Why should I listen to your church’s doctrine even if supported by Scripture?”

That is pretty much the way it goes, in thinking about, for about 95% + of discussions with our SB, even at high levels by our “professionals”. I can certainly see their point. If they are taught Scripture is the starting & ending point of the Word of God and Revelation (even though it is realy M. Luther’s 500 yr old personal theology) they view Catholic doctrine as just another opinion and summarily reject it.

Something is missing here, something basic about how we perceive our faith and its origins. This strikes at Catholics as well as many of us summarily reject teachings we disagree with (practice of artificial birth control, mandatory Sunday Mass attendance).

Until we learn & internalize what the Apostles orally taught as “the Gospel” and how the Church was born and spread during Apostolic times, I predict we will continue to flounder as we use the “fullness of truth” line and Scripture verses for “proof” as the basis for evangelization & apologetics. I cannot imagine the Apostles going around saying we have the fullness of truth, come & hear, and hear is the Scriptural support. If the Apostles didn’t do it why do we?

Even though we do possess the fullness of truth, the vast majority of people are not searching for the truth, much less the fullness of it. A few are, maybe 1 or 2% in my estimation.

Our whole approach to evangelization and apolegetics is off. In reading Papal documents such as Evangelization in the Modern Word, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the General Directory of Catechesis, among others, I do not see any Pope using the two pronged approach mentioned above.

 

[exaltarboy]

In discussing the faith with one of our separated brethren (SB) he usually (always) dismisses what I have to say, even if supported by a particular verse in Scripture, e.g. Jn 6 for the Eucharist. It is basically “I was taught such and such on Jn 6 or on the (non) necessity of baptism. Why should I listen to your church’s doctrine even if supported by Scripture?”

That is pretty much the way it goes, in thinking about, for about 95% + of discussions with our SB, even at high levels by our “professionals”. I can certainly see their point. If they are taught Scripture is the starting & ending point of the Word of God and Revelation (even though it is realy M. Luther’s 500 yr old personal theology) they view Catholic doctrine as just another opinion and summarily reject it.

Something is missing here, something basic about how we perceive our faith and its origins. This strikes at Catholics as well as many of us summarily reject teachings we disagree with (practice of artificial birth control, mandatory Sunday Mass attendance).

Until we learn & internalize what the Apostles orally taught as “the Gospel” and how the Church was born and spread during Apostolic times, I predict we will continue to flounder as we use the “fullness of truth” line and Scripture verses for “proof” as the basis for evangelization & apologetics. I cannot imagine the Apostles going around saying we have the fullness of truth, come & hear, and hear is the Scriptural support. If the Apostles didn’t do it why do we?

Even though we do possess the fullness of truth, the vast majority of people are not searching for the truth, much less the fullness of it. A few are, maybe 1 or 2% in my estimation.

Our whole approach to evangelization and apolegetics is off. In reading Papal documents such as Evangelization in the Modern Word, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the General Directory of Catechesis, among others, I do not see any Pope using the two pronged approach mentioned above.

It’s so easy for me. That’s why I love St. John of the Cross and being a contemplative. My faith seems to radiate from within to everything and everyone else. Mostly (here and now) by setting a good example. If your interested read “In His Spirit A Guide To Today’s Spirituality” by Father Richard J. Hauser who is Chairman of the Department of Theology at Creighton University. Like most Catholics you sound like your in what Father Hauser call the “Western Model” of spirituality. I have no trouble talking to Protestants and getting points across about the Catholic faith when I can relate it to my own strong faith.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Our whole approach to evangelization and apolegetics is off. In reading Papal documents such as Evangelization in the Modern Word, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the General Directory of Catechesis, among others, I do not see any Pope using the two pronged approach mentioned above.

What are the two prongs? I’m missing that.

 

[JOE_OBERR]

quote=MarcoPolo;4562430]What are the two prongs? I’m missing that.

I’m referring to using the theme “the fullness of truth” and then using Scripture to support whatever particular point is being addressed. From my original post:

“Until we learn & internalize what the Apostles orally taught as “the Gospel” and how the Church was born and spread during Apostolic times, I predict we will continue to flounder as we use the “fullness of truth” line and Scripture verses for “proof” as the basis for evangelization & apologetics. I cannot imagine the Apostles going around saying we have the fullness of truth, come & hear, and here is the Scriptural support. If the Apostles didn’t do it why do we?”

 

[Scoobyshme]

Well, the Apostles didn’t have to walk around saying they had the fullness of Christ’s truths because there weren’t any Protestants around for 1500 more years trying to contradict or change what they were teaching.

But, that aside, the deposit of faith left by Christ through the Apostles is found in three places: Holy Tradition (a.k.a., Oral Tradition), Holy Scripture, and the Magesterium of the Church.

The Bible says that not everything Jesus did or taught is in the Bible. Yet, Jesus told the Apostles to go forth and teach everything He had taught them. Which begs the question, “Where’s the rest of it, if it’s not in the Bible?” It’s in the Oral Traditions and teachings of the Church.

Your friend has a problem in his approach, very similar to Eve and Adam. The serpent told Eve that if she ate of the fruit in the middle of the garden she would not die, as God said she would, but would be “like God” in that she would be able to choose for her self, what was right and what was wrong. Your friend is doing basically the same thing. He’s insisting that he has to reinvent the Christian doctrine wheel all by himself, even if Jesus had it all done for him 2000 years ago. It’s the sin of almost every American I’ve ever met, including some Catholics. They insist on figuring out everything “for themselves” and refuse to believe unless they understand. In other words, they are withholding their religious assent as required of Catholics, to ALL Catholic teaching. I think it was St. Anselm that said something along the lines that we should not seek understanding in order to believe, but believe in order to understand. Also, we have a Latin phrase that seems appropriate, “Lex orandi, lex credendi” which means “As we pray, so shall we believe.” In other words, action first, then true faith. All requires God’s grace and our will to cooperate with that grace.

Okay, I’m ramblin’… Sorry 'bout that.

 

[Teflon93]

“Seek, and ye shall find.”

But what if they do not seek?

Perhaps they simply have not been called.

 

[JOE_OBERR]

It’s so easy for me. That’s why I love St. John of the Cross and being a contemplative. My faith seems to radiate from within to everything and everyone else. Mostly (here and now) by setting a good example. If your interested read “In His Spirit A Guide To Today’s Spirituality” by Father Richard J. Hauser who is Chairman of the Department of Theology at Creighton University. Like most Catholics you sound like your in what Father Hauser call the “Western Model” of spirituality. I have no trouble talking to Protestants and getting points across about the Catholic faith when I can relate it to my own strong faith.

Thanks and glad to hear grace is strong at work within you, but what I’m referring to is discussing the faith with one who is firm in his non-Catholic faith, which is literally hundreds of millions of folks across the globe. If I tell a non-Catholic that we are saved by baptism and quote Mk 16:15 or 1 Ptr 3:21, a typical response is “that is your interpretation” or basically, “so what if that is what your Church teaches”.

See my point? Almost all non-Catholics, and many Catholics, ignore Church teachings because they view them as just another opinion. My question is: why should they be viewed as more than just another opinion? Or can they?

 

[Teflon93]

See my point? Almost all non-Catholics, and many Catholics, ignore Church teachings because they view them as just another opinion. My question is: why should they be viewed as more than just another opinion? Or can they?

Because if Christ does not abide with the Catholic Church which he founded, he is a liar.

Christ did not found many churches—he founded one holy catholic and apostolic church. He did not take many brides; he took one. He did not give the keys to many men, but to one.

The Catholic Church alone can claim unbroken apostolic succession back to St Peter. The Orthodox broke the line after 1,000 years. The Protestants broke it after 1,500 years.

There can be only one—accept no substitutes.

 

[gtaliente]

There is one thing missing here that I think is important. In 2 Peter, it is written that no scripture is open to personal interpretation. That for me is one of the main differences between the Catholic Church and all protestant teachings. Christ gave us an infallible book to be interpreted by an infallible institution. That institution was and is the same Church he established, the Catholic Church. Starting with Luther and continuing through every one of the thousands of denominations, Bible Christians interpret Scripture to fit their private needs. That is why Calvin differed from Luther, that is whey the Methodists differ from the Baptists and so on and so on. The Catholic Church has one interpretation Period. If the Holy Spirit inspired the Bible’s interpretation and each of these denominations interpretations are so different, did the Holy Spirit get it wrong with some of them??? I don’t think so

 

[Teflon93]

There is one thing missing here that I think is important. In 2 Peter, it is written that no scripture is open to personal interpretation.

2 Peter 1:

1: Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3: According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5: And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6: And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7: And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8: For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9: But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
12: Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.
13: Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;
14: Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.
15: Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.
16: For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17: For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18: And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19: We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21: For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

 

[Teflon93]

2 Peter 2:

1: But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2: And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3: And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
4: For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5: And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6: And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7: And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
9: The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11: Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12: But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13: And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14: Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16: But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb *** speaking with man’s voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
17: These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18: For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19: While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21: For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22: But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

 

[Teflon93]

2 Peter 3:

1: This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2: That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4: And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5: For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8: But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10: But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11: Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12: Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13: Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14: Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15: And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17: Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18: But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

I post the whole of 2 Peter because it offers a perfect answer to the OP.

Offer that to your interlocutor. I doubt they’ve ever simply read the whole thing.

 

[JOE_OBERR]

Well, the Apostles didn’t have to walk around saying they had the fullness of Christ’s truths because there weren’t any Protestants around for 1500 more years trying to contradict or change what they were teaching.

But there was the Jewish religion and there were also the pagan religions of the era. But this still begs the question of what was said by the Apostles to convert hundreds of thousands which eventually became millions?

In reading the recent popes they talk about the initial proclamation, then catechesis for those who express an interest after hearing the initial proclamation. The initial proclamation is mentioned in the CCC. What is it? Why haven’t the laity been taught what it is so we can evangelize by using it?

The CCC #888 says the primary duty of the bishops and priests is to proclaim the Gospel. What specifically is its content? What if an atheist asks to hear it. What do we say? The popes say the Gospel is the whole Catholic faith but this isn’t being taught. There is a huge lacuna here which is hindering evangelization and apologetics.

But, that aside, the deposit of faith left by Christ through the Apostles is found in three places: Holy Tradition (a.k.a., Oral Tradition), Holy Scripture, and the Magesterium of the Church.
The Bible says that not everything Jesus did or taught is in the Bible. Yet, Jesus told the Apostles to go forth and teach everything He had taught them. Which begs the question, “Where’s the rest of it, if it’s not in the Bible?” It’s in the Oral Traditions and teachings of the Church.

Ok, so why should a Protestant (or Catholic for that matter) listen to Oral Tradition and the teachings of the Church? What authority does OT and the teachings of the Church have & why? Unless these questions can be answered the current situation, which is pretty bad, will not improve as people will continue to ignore them.

If I were a non-Catholic christian & a Catholic were to tell me baptism is necessary for salvation because it is a teaching of my church I would respond with “that’s nice, and so what?”, which is pretty much the universal response in so many different ways.

 

[ricko]

What authority does OT and the teachings of the Church have & why?

Joe, if you don’t know the answer to the above question then you should not be talking to the sort of people you have been talking to. No wonder you sound frustrated. You need to do some studying and there is plenty of information in Catholic Answers Home page. That being said, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink. If after you have prepared yourself and they still reject the truth then leave them alone and go else where. The path to Hell is wide indeed.