Why Maronites became Catholics at the 16th century?

[Wandile]

An interesting idea, given the thread topic and related issues. :ehh:

Ok?

 

[malphono]

go forward we have to understand before the past in order to avoid the same mistakes.

Yes, we must always keep history in mind, and that despite the calls from Rome to regain our traditions. The problem with those calls is that they’re half-hearted, meaning that Rome says one thing but doesn’t much act on it. One small example is the famous “Instruction to the Eastern Churches” from the mid-1990s saying that the Oriental Churches must restore the ad orientem posture. The Maronites have totally ignored this, so it amounts to nice words without force.

Moreover, traditions once they are lost it is hopeless to recuperate them…

In our case, I wouldn’t exactly say it’s hopeless to recoup our lost traditions, but it’s an uphill battle, precisely because we have made ourselves so subservient to Rome. That wasn’t imposed from without but rather embraced from within. It goes hand-in-hand with the gradual abandonment of our true Syriac identity. At this point in time, that is likely irreparable but not necessarily so. It will depend in great measure on our own people insisting - DEMANDING - from the Patriarch and the Synod that they stop the Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinization trend that is destroying us from within. And along with that, while the majority of Maronites know little of their own history (beyond the revisionist bilge that is the usual fare in Lebanon), we must DEMAND that the Patriarch and Synod abandon the foolishness that has been imposed - again from within - by the Arabizers over the past 50-some years. The process of Arabization has gone hand-in-hand with that of latinization.

 

[SyroMalankara]

The Truth is a lot of our leaders, whether Catholic Maronite, Syriac, Coptic, Ethiopian, Malabar, dare-I-say Malankara; hold to the Tradition as far as it keeps the people pleased and the coffers flowing. Any REAL adherence to the full Tradition is looked on suspiciously and all kinds of obstacles are placed in the way. On the other hand, when anyone wishes to imitate the “real Catholic” aka Roman practices - devotions, prayers, Adoration, NovusOrdo borrowings, even Charismaticism - no obstacles, no comments against it, and no one needs consulting.

Today, I don’t think it’s Rome’s direct doing; but Rome’s direct and indirect dealings and interferences have lead to the Eastern leaders of today.

While I fully support the philosophy that “All May be One” in regard to our Orthodox/Assyrian sister Churches - the reality today is, thank God for their separation, without it we’d have no way to reference how far we’ve gone.

 

[malphono]

The Truth is a lot of our leaders, whether Catholic Maronite, Syriac, Coptic, Ethiopian, Malabar, dare-I-say Malankara; hold to the Tradition as far as it keeps the people pleased and the coffers flowing. Any REAL adherence to the full Tradition is looked on suspiciously and all kinds of obstacles are placed in the way. On the other hand, when anyone wishes to imitate the “real Catholic” aka Roman practices - devotions, prayers, Adoration, NovusOrdo borrowings, even Charismaticism - no obstacles, no comments against it, and no one needs consulting.

Today, I don’t think it’s Rome’s direct doing; but Rome’s direct and indirect dealings and interferences have lead to the Eastern leaders of today.

While I fully support the philosophy that “All May be One” in regard to our Orthodox/Assyrian sister Churches - the reality today is, thank God for their separation, without it we’d have no way to reference how far we’ve gone.

Indeed so. And very well said, too.

 

[Peter_J]

At the end of the day, Maronites are Catholics. They are not separate from the Catholic Church as you wish.

??

Who said that Maronites are not Catholics (in the Roman Communion)? Or who expressed a wish for separation between Rome and the Maronite Church?

 

[Wandile]

??

Who said that Maronites are not Catholics (in the Roman Communion)? Or who expressed a wish for separation between Rome and the Maronite Church?

The OP

 

[dzheremi]

Ok?

The Maronites (well, some of them) are struggling to regain their true Syriac Christian heritage, which necessarily involves looking to the past. Not living in it, obviously, but it’s sort of strange given the context of this discussion that you’re saying “move forward; stop dwelling on the past”. How can they move forward without knowing where they’ve been?

As for your other post, as Malphono has pointed out, Rome’s call that the East return to its traditions means very little without any force behind it As it is, it seems more like a friendly suggestion than some sort of new principle meant to guide the churches or Rome’s interactions with them or whatever. My point in posting that image wasn’t to say “Rome has only said that they’re sorry, they haven’t actually done anything” (though I don’t know what they have done beyond proposing that the ECs return to their traditions, again without any consequences for those who don’t), but rather to say that trying to gently nudge things back on course is not going to right a sinking ship…

 

[dzheremi]

The Truth is a lot of our leaders, whether Catholic Maronite, Syriac, Coptic, Ethiopian, Malabar, dare-I-say Malankara; hold to the Tradition as far as it keeps the people pleased and the coffers flowing. Any REAL adherence to the full Tradition is looked on suspiciously and all kinds of obstacles are placed in the way. On the other hand, when anyone wishes to imitate the “real Catholic” aka Roman practices - devotions, prayers, Adoration, NovusOrdo borrowings, even Charismaticism - no obstacles, no comments against it, and no one needs consulting.

Today, I don’t think it’s Rome’s direct doing; but Rome’s direct and indirect dealings and interferences have lead to the Eastern leaders of today.

While I fully support the philosophy that “All May be One” in regard to our Orthodox/Assyrian sister Churches - the reality today is, thank God for their separation, without it we’d have no way to reference how far we’ve gone.

This is interesting. We have some problems in the COC where things have gone a long time without being addressed (social issues, usually; liturgical issues are generally isolated to particular regions which are now, thank God, being dealt with in good time, e.g., the recent delegation sent to DC), but when it comes to the people in the pews who might be upset by this or that, I’m glad to see how steadfast our priests and bishops largely are. You can’t let people’s preferences determine what you do or don’t do. You’re certainly free to prefer this or that, but in a liturgical setting, you are only allowed to do this. If people want to complain, fine, but the texts are as they are, the readings are as they are, the chants are as they are, and we don’t believe in reforming things that don’t need reforming.

 

[Wandile]

The Maronites (well, some of them) are struggling to regain their true Syriac Christian heritage, which necessarily involves looking to the past. Not living in it, obviously, but it’s sort of strange given the context of this discussion that you’re saying “move forward; stop dwelling on the past”. How can they move forward without knowing where they’ve been?

As for your other post, as Malphono has pointed out, Rome’s call that the East return to its traditions means very little without any force behind it As it is, it seems more like a friendly suggestion than some sort of new principle meant to guide the churches or Rome’s interactions with them or whatever. My point in posting that image wasn’t to say “Rome has only said that they’re sorry, they haven’t actually done anything” (though I don’t know what they have done beyond proposing that the ECs return to their traditions, again without any consequences for those who don’t), but rather to say that trying to gently nudge things back on course is not going to right a sinking ship…

When I say dwelling on the past it means focusing on the past injustices. Its one thing to look into the past for how things were done before everything got messed up, but this thread is clearly not about that. Its about those pesky Romans and Jesuits forcing Maronites into roman communion or something of that sort. Even historical enquiry about the tragedies is fine but to dwell on such things is unhealthy for progress. Please don’t try twist my words again as what you advocate about having to look into the past is not the same thing as I meant and I think you knew this…

And what force would you want Rome to put? Because the only way anything can happen from Rome’s side is by interfering in the maronite church. So its a catch 22. The most Rome can really do is do what they have done which is encourage the recapture of past traditions. The maronites have to actually do the labour as its their church and roman interference is not an option.

 

[MaroniteLebaniz]

Yes and here is the problem. Autochthon monks and priests were influenced by Romans to support such-and-such leader, moreover Vatican before the genocide happens was clearly on the side of the rich and educated people (otherwise people able to learn Latin), that leads to fences between social categories and ethnic groups then at long run was a pre-eminent factor of the genocide.
So here we come again, the same problem exposed by dzheremi with the Catholic sects and the picture of the broken plate that you didn’t entirely assimilate the message behind; maybe they did many good but a little bad can brake you for ever.
Similar things happened to the Christians of Lebanon and lead us to inter-Christian wars, it wasn’t a story of poors and rich, but such-and-such leaders influenced by such-and-such priest influenced by such-and-such external Church.

The problem is that you can’t evaluate the role and influence of Roma in a “Catholic nation” I think (my personal opinion) that Vatican is also protected by the devil mediatic system, whereas when they mock in the West Catholic Church they do not mock the authority or the sects, they mock globaly the Christian values (in the name of the RCC).

It is weird friend.

Haha yes they are, no dubt about that, but the question is for how long yet ? HAHA.
Yes I’m heretical but remember friend, our Lord also used to be considered as schismatic by his own community, which would means “heretical” with the RCC terms.

 

[MaroniteLebaniz]

In the Genocide of Rwanda Catholics were on both sides of the genocide. There numerous stories of priests giving their lives for the the Tsutsis and some clergy who participated in the slaughter. This was cultural slaughter, not a religious one. Buddy you are being lied to about Africa…

Yes and here is the problem. Autochthon monks and priests were influenced by Romans to support such-and-such leader, moreover Vatican before the genocide happens was clearly on the side of the rich and educated people (otherwise people able to learn Latin), that leads to fences between social categories and ethnic groups then at long run was a pre-eminent factor of the genocide.

So here we come again, the same problem exposed by dzheremi with the Catholic sects and the picture of the broken plate that you didn’t entirely assimilate the message behind; maybe they did many good but a little bad can brake you for ever.
Similar things happened to the Christians of Lebanon and lead us to inter-Christian wars, it wasn’t a story of poors and rich, but such-and-such leaders influenced by such-and-such priest influenced by such-and-such external Church.

The problem is that you can’t evaluate the role and influence of Roma in a “Catholic nation” I think (my personal opinion) that Vatican is also protected by the devil mediatic system, whereas when they mock in the West Catholic Church they do not mock the authority or the sects, they mock globaly the Christian values (in the name of the RCC).

It is weird friend.

At the end of the day, Maronites are Catholics. They are not separate from the Catholic Church as you wish. So even in your own church, your views are controversial. Heretical to be honest…

Haha yes they are, no dubt about that, but the question is for how long yet ? HAHA.
Yes I’m heretical but remember friend, our Lord also used to be considered as schismatic by his own community, which would means “heretical” with the RCC terms.

 

[Wandile]

Yes and here is the problem. Autochthon monks and priests were influenced by Romans to support such-and-such leader, moreover Vatican before the genocide happens was clearly on the side of the rich and educated people (otherwise people able to learn Latin), that leads to fences between social categories and ethnic groups then at long run was a pre-eminent factor of the genocide.

So here we come again, the same problem exposed by dzheremi with the Catholic sects and the picture of the broken plate that you didn’t entirely assimilate the message behind; maybe they did many good but a little bad can brake you for ever.
Similar things happened to the Christians of Lebanon and lead us to inter-Christian wars, it wasn’t a story of poors and rich, but such-and-such leaders influenced by such-and-such priest influenced by such-and-such external Church.

The problem is that you can’t evaluate the role and influence of Roma in a “Catholic nation” I think (my personal opinion) that Vatican is also protected by the devil mediatic system, whereas when they mock in the West Catholic Church they do not mock the authority or the sects, they mock globaly the Christian values (in the name of the RCC).

It is weird friend.

Haha yes they are, no dubt about that, but the question is for how long yet ? HAHA.
Yes I’m heretical but remember friend, our Lord also used to be considered as schismatic by his own community, which would means “heretical” with the RCC terms.

Christ wasn’t a sinner l. By promoting schism you are a sinning against his church. Then again you have a right to your own opinion

 

[MaroniteLebaniz]

Christ wasn’t a sinner l. By promoting schism you are a sinning against his church. Then again you have a right to your own opinion

They reproched also to our Lord to sin against the authority established by God.
==Just a comparison==

 

[SyroMalankara]

When I say dwelling on the past it means focusing on the past injustices. Its one thing to look into the past for how things were done before everything got messed up, but this thread is clearly not about that. Its about those pesky Romans and Jesuits forcing Maronites into roman communion or something of that sort. Even historical enquiry about the tragedies is fine but to dwell on such things is unhealthy for progress. Please don’t try twist my words again as what you advocate about having to look into the past is not the same thing as I meant and I think you knew this…

And what force would you want Rome to put? Because the only way anything can happen from Rome’s side is by interfering in the maronite church. So its a catch 22. The most Rome can really do is do what they have done which is encourage the recapture of past traditions. The maronites have to actually do the labour as its their church and roman interference is not an option.

I’ll give another example. The Syro-Malabar Church of India - the Jesuits and later Carmelites created such a mess, and were the heads of the Church for a time, that when Pope St. JP2 asserted the Church must base it’s Liturgy on the Chaldean Rite, there was a massive blowback from the laity and priests. The majority of bishops were for the Pope’s call, but the latinized bishops and priests, along with latinized laity refused to implement the changes approved by the Syro-Malabar Church and verified by the Oriental Congregation. JP2’s appointees kept pushing, and the latinizers pushed back twice as hard. They were convinced that Latin is Catholic, Chaldean is pagan, not Indian enough, not really Catholic and a host of other complaints - which basically amounts to “I didn’t grow up with this, what I did when I was 10 is Tradition”. This became a problem even up to 5yrs ago in the United States, with some of the laity with clergy support, refusing to implement the authentic Tradition.

What should be done - Rome created the problem, now let the Eastern Churches control and clamp down on dissenting latinizing bishops with no recourse to have the Vatican let it go; let the Eastern Synods appoint their own bishops worldwide; Eastern Churches must study in Eastern non-latinized Seminaries, if needed, send them to Orthodox Seminaries.

 

[MaroniteLebaniz]

Yes, we must always keep history in mind, and that despite the calls from Rome to regain our traditions. The problem with those calls is that they’re half-hearted, meaning that Rome says one thing but doesn’t much act on it.

I totally agree with that, it is also my feelings!!

In our case, I wouldn’t exactly say it’s hopeless to recoup our lost traditions, but it’s an uphill battle, precisely because we have made ourselves so subservient to Rome. That wasn’t imposed from without but rather embraced from within. It goes hand-in-hand with the gradual abandonment of our true Syriac identity. At this point in time, that is likely irreparable but not necessarily so. It will depend in great measure on our own people insisting - DEMANDING - from the Patriarch and the Synod that they stop the Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinization trend that is destroying us from within. And along with that, while the majority of Maronites know little of their own history (beyond the revisionist bilge that is the usual fare in Lebanon), we must DEMAND that the Patriarch and Synod abandon the foolishness that has been imposed - again from within - by the Arabizers over the past 50-some years. The process of Arabization has gone hand-in-hand with that of latinization.

So brother, I very hope I made a mistake saying that we can’t recuperate our lost traditions, and I hope the contrary will happen very soon.

I hope also that we will spoke again the language of our Savior, and forget what we learned bad from Arabs and Romans.

 

[MaroniteLebaniz]

The Truth is a lot of our leaders, whether Catholic Maronite, Syriac, Coptic, Ethiopian, Malabar, dare-I-say Malankara; hold to the Tradition as far as it keeps the people pleased and the coffers flowing. Any REAL adherence to the full Tradition is looked on suspiciously and all kinds of obstacles are placed in the way. On the other hand, when anyone wishes to imitate the “real Catholic” aka Roman practices - devotions, prayers, Adoration, NovusOrdo borrowings, even Charismaticism - no obstacles, no comments against it, and no one needs consulting.

Today, I don’t think it’s Rome’s direct doing; but Rome’s direct and indirect dealings and interferences have lead to the Eastern leaders of today.

While I fully support the philosophy that “All May be One” in regard to our Orthodox/Assyrian sister Churches - the reality today is, thank God for their separation, without it we’d have no way to reference how far we’ve gone.

It is also my feelings, and I very appreciated the last sentence because it resumes the situation perfectly. Thanks for you reply brother !!

 

[MaroniteLebaniz]

??

Or who expressed a wish for separation between Rome and the Maronite Church?

I.

 

[MaroniteLebaniz]

I’ll give another example. The Syro-Malabar Church of India - the Jesuits and later Carmelites created such a mess, and were the heads of the Church for a time, that when Pope St. JP2 asserted the Church must base it’s Liturgy on the Chaldean Rite, there was a massive blowback from the laity and priests. The majority of bishops were for the Pope’s call, but the latinized bishops and priests, along with latinized laity refused to implement the changes approved by the Syro-Malabar Church and verified by the Oriental Congregation. JP2’s appointees kept pushing, and the latinizers pushed back twice as hard.

Is the Syro-Malabar Church, the Church established by Apostle Thomas in India ? Which was in the beginning following the Assyrian rite, then Latinised ?

 

[dzheremi]

When I say dwelling on the past it means focusing on the past injustices. Its one thing to look into the past for how things were done before everything got messed up, but this thread is clearly not about that. Its about those pesky Romans and Jesuits forcing Maronites into roman communion or something of that sort.

Again, I’m not so sure you can separate the two in every case. When the injustices created the atmosphere by which certain actions were taken to prove the native church’s loyalty to Rome, then how can you say that they should return to their previous way of doing things but without focusing on past injustices? In practical terms, say if a certain Latin-appeasing council or bishop or something introduced some changes to their traditional practice at some point and they should want to get rid of those changes, doesn’t that involve in some sense vindicating the viewpoint that is against those changes? Saying “This was wrong when it happened, and we’re going to reverse it; we demand that it be reversed.” Isn’t that the whole reason why these things are allowed to fester? People don’t want to bring up the past, they don’t want to admit that they’ve wandered away in their quest to follow the Latins in everything, etc. So I don’t know that you can get there from where you are without at least some conflict over past events. It doesn’t necessarily need to involve demonizing or condemning other people, but certainly condemning unhealthy, inorganic changes to their traditional praxis and spirituality…I fail to see what’s wrong with that. Either you follow your own fathers or you don’t. If some people are offended or think that it’s an affront to “progress”, well…good. Maybe there are some places the church shouldn’t go, or shouldn’t have gone in the first place.

Please don’t try twist my words again as what you advocate about having to look into the past is not the same thing as I meant and I think you knew this…

Oh, yesss…you’re so oppressed by me trying to make you think about the implications of the things you write! And forcing you to read and reply to my posts!

And what force would you want Rome to put?

My point is that as it has been received it seems like it has been taken more as a polite suggestion than something that they should have to do. As it is, people are lazy, so I’m not surprised that they’re fighting an uphill battle, and getting basically no help.

The maronites have to actually do the labour as its their church and roman interference is not an option.

Indeed. The tone of this thread makes me wonder if some people who are not Maronites are willing to let them do that unimpeded, or if subservience to Rome at all costs and in all aspects is actually more important than what Rome itself has encouraged the Maronites to do. Now there’s a real catch 22.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Is the Syro-Malabar Church, the Church established by Apostle Thomas in India ? Which was in the beginning following the Assyrian rite, then Latinised ?

Yes. Although, maybe I should be grateful since my Church - nor my brothers and sisters in the Syriac Orthodox or Malankara Orthodox Churches - wouldn’t exist in India if it weren’t for the latinization…