Why "Marriage Equality" really means "DEATH TO MARRIAGE"

[CopticChristian]

I agree that efforts should be spent on trying to fix marriage, but allowing the legalisation of same-sex married is going to set these efforts backwards. Why? Because it ultimately changes what marriage is.

How are we to argue now for stricter divorce laws? If the understanding that marriage is between a man and a woman, this cause has some ground because we can point to children and show how much divorce hurts them. But in legalising same-sex marriage, you are saying that marriage in itself has nothing to do with children. So, indeed, why even bother with even lax divorce laws? Why can’t two adults just separate if they want, whenever they want?

JH,

The argument is a diversion…let us just call failed marriges/Divorce FMD

those that fall into the FMD are not

trying to pass laws as it relates to them
trying to silence anyone that disagrees with them
trying to teach children that FMD is normal and they should look forward to FMD
invading churches and dividing churches over this issue

and more…

it is a non-sequitor that only needs a “no”…and then continue to believe as we believe and act as we act to state what we believe about a real problem, not an imagined problem that has no bearing on the issue.

 

[90Domer]

As it happens I don’t have a view on marijuana. There is evidence that it is less toxic than tobacco, but people seem to be ok with others spoking cigarettes (as is the Church, which says it’s down to personal choice). I really don’t care if it’s legalised or not. If marijuana were legalised (and it has been in certain places) then it’s personal choice whether to use it it is with tobacco.

As for ‘open marriage’ and multiple partners, that’s not illegal anyway. I’m not saying it’s right, but those engaged in such activities clearly don’t agree. We can’t force them to change their beliefs.

Same sex marriage cannot possibly be compared to abortion. Nobody dies when two people of the same gender shack up together. To equate the two is repellant.

Homosexuals are unable to have children. Children aren’t possible between two people of the same gender. Children are not applicable to the argument about whether two people of the same gender should be recognised by a framework of laws as a legal unit as two people of opposite gender are.

Overall, I have to wonder whether some people here even know their faith. They certainly aren’t living by it. We are called to charity and to love. Charity does not call for us to make people who are not of our faith miserable or to obstruct their happiness. I have to wonder what Church I belong to if some of the people I’ve read replies from are representative of it.

Do people realise the effect they have on others? Your pride in your own sense of righteousness is the worst possible advert for the love that is meant to be at the heart of Christianity. Love does not hurt people. Love is patient and kind and compassionate. You do not demonstrate compassion by causing people pain and fear. What kind of twisted understanding is that of what it means to be a follower of Christ?

If the examples I’ve read here were representative of the religion I belong to then I would be finding another religion fast. The attitudes I’ve seen here would drive me away from the Church this instant if I thought they were actually true. Thankfully I know my religion better than that, and I am able to read the subtleties of it better. I can hear and see and understand what the Holy Father teaches. I know what my faith means to me… however it’s very clear to me that my religion isn’t necessarily the same as is held by others here.

No doubt that will cause some to feel indignant. How dare I tell them they’re wrong? Who is it that is suffering from pride over compassion though? Who is it that is hard hearted and pharisaical over caring and tolerant? Who wants to impose rules over being a light that attracts people freely?

Who’s Church am I in? Who’s church are these people in?

Dex, I disagree that nothing dies when two SSA have sex. Their souls die. And it is a mortal sin as grave as committing abortion.

 

[90Domer]

As it happens I don’t have a view on marijuana. There is evidence that it is less toxic than tobacco, but people seem to be ok with others spoking cigarettes (as is the Church, which says it’s down to personal choice). I really don’t care if it’s legalised or not. If marijuana were legalised (and it has been in certain places) then it’s personal choice whether to use it it is with tobacco.

As for ‘open marriage’ and multiple partners, that’s not illegal anyway. I’m not saying it’s right, but those engaged in such activities clearly don’t agree. We can’t force them to change their beliefs.

Same sex marriage cannot possibly be compared to abortion. Nobody dies when two people of the same gender shack up together. To equate the two is repellant.

Homosexuals are unable to have children. Children aren’t possible between two people of the same gender. Children are not applicable to the argument about whether two people of the same gender should be recognised by a framework of laws as a legal unit as two people of opposite gender are.

Overall, I have to wonder whether some people here even know their faith. They certainly aren’t living by it. We are called to charity and to love. Charity does not call for us to make people who are not of our faith miserable or to obstruct their happiness. I have to wonder what Church I belong to if some of the people I’ve read replies from are representative of it.

Do people realise the effect they have on others? Your pride in your own sense of righteousness is the worst possible advert for the love that is meant to be at the heart of Christianity. Love does not hurt people. Love is patient and kind and compassionate. You do not demonstrate compassion by causing people pain and fear. What kind of twisted understanding is that of what it means to be a follower of Christ?

If the examples I’ve read here were representative of the religion I belong to then I would be finding another religion fast. The attitudes I’ve seen here would drive me away from the Church this instant if I thought they were actually true. Thankfully I know my religion better than that, and I am able to read the subtleties of it better. I can hear and see and understand what the Holy Father teaches. I know what my faith means to me… however it’s very clear to me that my religion isn’t necessarily the same as is held by others here.

No doubt that will cause some to feel indignant. How dare I tell them they’re wrong? Who is it that is suffering from pride over compassion though? Who is it that is hard hearted and pharisaical over caring and tolerant? Who wants to impose rules over being a light that attracts people freely?

Who’s Church am I in? Who’s church are these people in?

Dex, Catholic are being as charitable and loving in the agape sense when they do not want their brothers or sisters to commit a mortal sin. As others suggested, please bring your beliefs to your bishop and see if he would agree. I put large sums that he would not.

Sadly, I fear it is you who don’t understand the Catechism. In the meantime, I am sticking true to 2000 years of inspired wisdom.

 

[fix]

Same sex marriage cannot possibly be compared to abortion. Nobody dies when two people of the same gender shack up together. To equate the two is repellant.

Both are intrinsically evil. Both are sins that cry to heaven for justice. Both destroy souls. Both are examples of unjust laws. Both laws teach others to sin.

Homosexuals are unable to have children. Children aren’t possible between two people of the same gender. Children are not applicable to the argument about whether two people of the same gender should be recognised by a framework of laws as a legal unit as two people of opposite gender are.

They can adopt or use illicit medical means to obtain children. Children are central to the issue. How can you deny the obvious?

Overall, I have to wonder whether some people here even know their faith. They certainly aren’t living by it. We are called to charity and to love. Charity does not call for us to make people who are not of our faith miserable or to obstruct their happiness. I have to wonder what Church I belong to if some of the people I’ve read replies from are representative of it.

Anyone who obtains happiness from objective mortal sin is deceived. To claim any Catholic should support evil is beyond words.

Do people realise the effect they have on others? Your pride in your own sense of righteousness is the worst possible advert for the love that is meant to be at the heart of Christianity. Love does not hurt people. Love is patient and kind and compassionate. You do not demonstrate compassion by causing people pain and fear. What kind of twisted understanding is that of what it means to be a follower of Christ?

There is no love in affirming sin. Your position is not Catholic.

If the examples I’ve read here were representative of the religion I belong to then I would be finding another religion fast. The attitudes I’ve seen here would drive me away from the Church this instant if I thought they were actually true. Thankfully I know my religion better than that, and I am able to read the subtleties of it better. I can hear and see and understand what the Holy Father teaches. I know what my faith means to me… however it’s very clear to me that my religion isn’t necessarily the same as is held by others here.

No doubt that will cause some to feel indignant. How dare I tell them they’re wrong? Who is it that is suffering from pride over compassion though? Who is it that is hard hearted and pharisaical over caring and tolerant? Who wants to impose rules over being a light that attracts people freely?

Who’s Church am I in? Who’s church are these people in?

Woe to those who call evil good.

 

[fix]

Dex, Catholic are being as charitable and loving in the agape sense when they do not want their brothers or sisters to commit a mortal sin. As others suggested, please bring your beliefs to your bishop and see if he would agree. I put large sums that he would not.

Sadly, I fear it is you who don’t understand the Catechism. In the meantime, I am sticking true to 2000 years of inspired wisdom.

We should all hope and pray he does go to his bishop.

 

[jonathan_hili]

I really don’t care if it’s legalised or not. If marijuana were legalised (and it has been in certain places) then it’s personal choice whether to use it it is with tobacco.

Cool, okay Governor, let’s legalise marijuana and change marriage to include “open-marriages” in law, a kind of temporary polygamy. What about cocaine or crystal meth? I mean, I don’t think we can force users to change their beliefs and they obviously don’t agree that they’re bad, so we might as well legalise them too. After all, it’ll be personal choice whether to use it or not, as you say.

Same sex marriage cannot possibly be compared to abortion. Nobody dies when two people of the same gender shack up together. To equate the two is repellant.

The comparison is in legalising an obvious moral evil that violates the natural law. Are you sure nobody dies in same-sex unions? Remember what God said in the Garden: The day you eat of it, you will surely die! There’s death, and then there’s death.

Children are not applicable to the argument about whether two people of the same gender should be recognised by a framework of laws as a legal unit as two people of opposite gender are.

But we are not talking about “a framework of laws as a legal unit” - we are talking about marriage. The law is for “recognition of a legal unit comprising of two people from the same gender” but for “same-sex marriage”. Dex, you seem to be ignoring the words that are being used, as if the word “marriage” means nothing.

Overall, I have to wonder whether some people here even know their faith. They certainly aren’t living by it. We are called to charity and to love. Charity does not call for us to make people who are not of our faith miserable or to obstruct their happiness. I have to wonder what Church I belong to if some of the people I’ve read replies from are representative of it.

What does charity mean? It means to love. What is love? Doing the good of the other. Now, do you honestly think that same-sex unions and intercourse is (i) doing good for people with same-sex attraction, (ii) making them less miserable than being in communion with God, and (iii) making them more happy than being in communion with God? Do you honestly think that we are against legalising same-sex marriage because we are scared and want to make people miserable? The former might be partly true (I’m very scared) but in fact we care about the children this will affect as well as those involved. Don’t you realise: sin damns you. Is that what you want for these people, for them to sin and sin and sin, to be cut off from the love of God, to reject His Church? By legalising same-sex marriage you make this easier, just as you do by legalising pornography, by legalising abortion, and a host of other natural evils.

Do people realise the effect they have on others? Your pride in your own sense of righteousness is the worst possible advert for the love that is meant to be at the heart of Christianity. Love does not hurt people. Love is patient and kind and compassionate. You do not demonstrate compassion by causing people pain and fear. What kind of twisted understanding is that of what it means to be a follower of Christ?

Self-righteousness? Dude, do you hear what you’re saying? You are saying we should go against the Church (that is, Jesus Christ).

Really, love doesn’t hurt people? What about Purgatory? What about a mother taking her child to the dentist or a father smacking his son on the bottom? What about a woman who has just lost her husband of forty years? Love does hurt. The truth also hurts.

In fact, “compassion” means “suffering with” someone. I’m very willing to suffer with any person who is same-sex attracted and is willing to live rightly, or even if they need help, but I’m not willing to suffer the children going astray. I don’t want a millstone tied around my neck, thanks a lot!

Nobody here is saying “Lock up homosexual people” or “Ban them from having social relations” or even “Stop them getting legal rights” - we aren’t even talking about prohibiting civil unions! Just don’t touch marriage, it’s wrong.

If the examples I’ve read here were representative of the religion I belong to then I would be finding another religion fast. The attitudes I’ve seen here would drive me away from the Church this instant if I thought they were actually true. Thankfully I know my religion better than that, and I am able to read the subtleties of it better. I can hear and see and understand what the Holy Father teaches. I know what my faith means to me… however it’s very clear to me that my religion isn’t necessarily the same as is held by others here.

That’s interesting. So you would leave the Church because her members are against legalising same-sex marriage? Well, you’d better run fast then, Dex, because the Church is against legalising same-sex marriage. Why not write a letter to your priest, your bishop or even Pope Francis and see if any of them want to legalise same-sex marriage.

Dex, I don’t know what your religion is, but on this point, it’s contrary to the teachings of the Church.

It’s not because you are saying we are wrong - to be frank, that’s one of the blessings of the Church, that She can show us when we’re wrong - but because it is against natural law.

Again, I ask you, how is it caring and tolerant to legalise a lie?

Okay, Dex, if you’re honest then, please answer whether you are against legalising polygamy?

 

[90Domer]

Cool, okay Governor, let’s legalise marijuana and change marriage to include “open-marriages” in law, a kind of temporary polygamy. What about cocaine or crystal meth? I mean, I don’t think we can force users to change their beliefs and they obviously don’t agree that they’re bad, so we might as well legalise them too. After all, it’ll be personal choice whether to use it or not, as you say.

The comparison is in legalising an obvious moral evil that violates the natural law. Are you sure nobody dies in same-sex unions? Remember what God said in the Garden: The day you eat of it, you will surely die! There’s death, and then there’s death.

But we are not talking about “a framework of laws as a legal unit” - we are talking about marriage. The law is for “recognition of a legal unit comprising of two people from the same gender” but for “same-sex marriage”. Dex, you seem to be ignoring the words that are being used, as if the word “marriage” means nothing.

What does charity mean? It means to love. What is love? Doing the good of the other. Now, do you honestly think that same-sex unions and intercourse is (i) doing good for people with same-sex attraction, (ii) making them less miserable than being in communion with God, and (iii) making them more happy than being in communion with God? Do you honestly think that we are against legalising same-sex marriage because we are scared and want to make people miserable? The former might be partly true (I’m very scared) but in fact we care about the children this will affect as well as those involved. Don’t you realise: sin damns you. Is that what you want for these people, for them to sin and sin and sin, to be cut off from the love of God, to reject His Church? By legalising same-sex marriage you make this easier, just as you do by legalising pornography, by legalising abortion, and a host of other natural evils.

Self-righteousness? Dude, do you hear what you’re saying? You are saying we should go against the Church (that is, Jesus Christ).

Really, love doesn’t hurt people? What about Purgatory? What about a mother taking her child to the dentist or a father smacking his son on the bottom? What about a woman who has just lost her husband of forty years? Love does hurt. The truth also hurts.

In fact, “compassion” means “suffering with” someone. I’m very willing to suffer with any person who is same-sex attracted and is willing to live rightly, or even if they need help, but I’m not willing to suffer the children going astray. I don’t want a millstone tied around my neck, thanks a lot!

Nobody here is saying “Lock up homosexual people” or “Ban them from having social relations” or even “Stop them getting legal rights” - we aren’t even talking about prohibiting civil unions! Just don’t touch marriage, it’s wrong.

That’s interesting. So you would leave the Church because her members are against legalising same-sex marriage? Well, you’d better run fast then, Dex, because the Church is against legalising same-sex marriage. Why not write a letter to your priest, your bishop or even Pope Francis and see if any of them want to legalise same-sex marriage.

Dex, I don’t know what your religion is, but on this point, it’s contrary to the teachings of the Church.

It’s not because you are saying we are wrong - to be frank, that’s one of the blessings of the Church, that She can show us when we’re wrong - but because it is against natural law.

Again, I ask you, how is it caring and tolerant to legalise a lie?

Okay, Dex, if you’re honest then, please answer whether you are against legalising polygamy?

This post expresses everything I would want to express. And quite frankly, this thread is making me so sad as I see people who were baptized Catholic arguing in favor of SSM. What Dex argues and points out are the exact same talking points my agenda in-laws tried to pull on us and their friends. They held ministry positions in the church, and other parishioners complained to the pastor that they should be removed on account of their advocacy.

My FIL is now deceased and my husband constantly worries about the fate of his soul. Did he repent before dying? If not, we have to hope for a completely merciful God. But he certainly was not in communion with the Church just prior to his death.

My hope is that those baptized Catholics see the error in such beliefs and change in order to be in full communion with the Church.

 

[jonathan_hili]

This post expresses everything I would want to express. And quite frankly, this thread is making me so sad as I see people who were baptized Catholic arguing in favor of SSM. What Dex argues and points out are the exact same talking points my agenda in-laws tried to pull on us and their friends. They held ministry positions in the church, and other parishioners complained to the pastor that they should be removed on account of their advocacy.

My FIL is now deceased and my husband constantly worries about the fate of his soul. Did he repent before dying? If not, we have to hope for a completely merciful God. But he certainly was not in communion with the Church just prior to his death.

My hope is that those baptized Catholics see the error in such beliefs and change in order to be in full communion with the Church.

Dex isn’t arguing in favour of same-sex marriage, but rather that religious people should not try to interfere with efforts to legalise it because (from what I can gather) it is none of our business, it doesn’t help evangelisation and it will make more people unhappy. While I respect his sentiments, I think he’s primarily mistake is that he is confusing religious people who are against same-sex marriage (because they want to protect the true understanding of marriage) with religious arguments. I’d agree with him, that if we were just using religious arguments, secular society should pay little attention to us, but we are not arguing on the basis of religion but on natural law.

Also, to legislate a lie is never good, it doesn’t who is doing it and why. We should never support such legislation.

 

[90Domer]

Dex isn’t arguing in favour of same-sex marriage, but rather that religious people should not try to interfere with efforts to legalise it because (from what I can gather) it is none of our business, it doesn’t help evangelisation and it will make more people unhappy. While I respect his sentiments, I think he’s primarily mistake is that he is confusing religious people who are against same-sex marriage (because they want to protect the true understanding of marriage) with religious arguments. I’d agree with him, that if we were just using religious arguments, secular society should pay little attention to us, but we are not arguing on the basis of religion but on natural law.

Also, to legislate a lie is never good, it doesn’t who is doing it and why. We should never support such legislation.

You are correct, my wrong. However, I think there is a fine line between those who argue it is none of our business and outright support. This is merely a personal opinion.

From my personal experience, I have seen my SSA BIL and his partners get loads of support for his lifestyle, and he is still completely miserable. He has substance abuse issues and depression. He is immature, rude and crass. He lives is a state that approved SSM. He has no care for that. He is yearning for acceptance of actions that are morally wrong. Deep down he knows this. I feel for him, but he hates the Church and has left it. Clearly, there is more to his grief than just the legalization of marriage.

 

[DexUK]

Well, you’d better run fast then, Dex

Well isn’t that nice…?

Telling a Catholic to leave the Church… How very Christian of you.

In telling me I should not be listening to the Church, you just lost any hope of getting a hearing from me, my friend.

And, indeed, nowhere is it a dogma that I should always and everywhere agree with the Church. The Church has defined dogmas that I, as a Catholic have to believe, such as the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the existence of transubstantiation, etc.

But I am free to act within my own conscience about whether or not I agree with what the Church tells the rest of the world to do.

Note - AGAIN - that I am not telling anyone that ANY Catholic should contract a same sex ‘marriage’. Neither am I telling ANYONE that a Catholic should be allowed to commit sodomy or adultery or any other sins. I am telling people though that we are, in the words of the Bible, to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s - i.e., in this case, the right of the secular State to make and enact rules that it sees fit for people who are not Catholic to abide by. We have higher rules, rules that contradict the State’s and that is fine and I do not, for one second, deny those rules… but I am being told that I do not mean what I mean. Well, I will keep right on repeating that I do mean what I mean, and nobody else may tell me that I don’t.

I am repeatedly misrepresented here. My words are repeatedly taken and portrayed as opposing the Church and that in doing so I am therefore sinful and not Catholic. Well, I have news for you: the Catholic Church does not have a monopoly over the acts and desires of people WHO ARE NOT CATHOLIC. The Catholic Church is not a secular authority because, shock horror, 82% of the population of the planet are not Catholic (even nominally). These people have the right to make their own rules. If we want to stop those rules, we need to be in the majority. If we were in the majority, that would be just fine, but we’re not. And the Church, the Pope even, recognises this. Now I know exactly where my loyalty lies. And I won’t be told that I am to leave the Church because some people here are SO uncharitable towards the rest of the world that only wishes to live its life peacefully and on its own terms.

I’m sorry if I’m coming over aggressive now. That’s what being told to ‘run very fast away from the Church’ does to me. It is my home and my life. Talk about ‘uncharitable…’ What a thing to do to a person! To tell them that is appalling. Some people should take a very long hard look at themselves in the mirror and do a long hard examination of their souls.

 

[jonathan_hili]

Well isn’t that nice…?

Telling a Catholic to leave the Church… How very Christian of you.

I’m not telling you to leave the Church, Dex, quite the opposite actually. What I’m saying is that if you don’t want to be part of a Church that is against the legalisation of same-sex marriage, you’re in the wrong Church. You are aware that the Church is against the legalisation of same-sex marriage, right?

In telling me I should not be listening to the Church, you just lost any hope of getting a hearing from me, my friend.

And, indeed, nowhere is it a dogma that I should always and everywhere agree with the Church. The Church has defined dogmas that I, as a Catholic have to believe, such as the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the existence of transubstantiation, etc.

But I am free to act within my own conscience about whether or not I agree with what the Church tells the rest of the world to do.

Oh, I guess you are aware…

I can’t agree with your stance, Dex. The Church tells us to form our conscience rightly, which means, at the roots, in understanding the Church’s moral life. Yet you seem to oppose this?

I’m sorry but as a Catholic you are not free to act as you please if it directly violates the Church’s moral teaching. Neither am I. I wish I could be but unfortunately I cannot. Read St Paul’s First Letter to the Corinthians a few times and you’ll see that.

As I said before, the good thing about the Church is not that She affirms us when we’re right but that She corrects us when we’re wrong. As Bob Marley sang: “God guide and protect us, when we’re wrong, please correct us…”

Note - AGAIN - that I am not telling anyone that ANY Catholic should contract a same sex ‘marriage’. Neither am I telling ANYONE that a Catholic should be allowed to commit sodomy or adultery or any other sins. I am telling people though that we are, in the words of the Bible, to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s - i.e., in this case, the right of the secular State to make and enact rules that it sees fit for people who are not Catholic to abide by. We have higher rules, rules that contradict the State’s and that is fine and I do not, for one second, deny those rules… but I am being told that I do not mean what I mean. Well, I will keep right on repeating that I do mean what I mean, and nobody else may tell me that I don’t.

I know what you’re saying, Dex. But the Church is here for the world, not just for Catholics. God wills that everybody is saved and that’s what we’re here to do - help save souls. We can’t do that by allowing lies to be legislated and people to thereby fall into sin.

Umm the passage you quoted, about rendering unto Caesar what is Caesars, well Jesus seemed to mean the opposite: “Render unto Caesar what is Caesars, and to God what is Gods”, namely, everything. We can’t compartmentalise our morality or life. Everything is Gods.

Regardless… This is not really the point. The point is that we oppose same-sex marriage legislation because it is a lie (this is not what marriage is) and it is against the natural law. Again, this is not a religious argument.

I am repeatedly misrepresented here. My words are repeatedly taken and portrayed as opposing the Church and that in doing so I am therefore sinful and not Catholic. Well, I have news for you: the Catholic Church does not have a monopoly over the acts and desires of people WHO ARE NOT CATHOLIC. The Catholic Church is not a secular authority because, shock horror, 82% of the population of the planet are not Catholic (even nominally). These people have the right to make their own rules. If we want to stop those rules, we need to be in the majority. If we were in the majority, that would be just fine, but we’re not. And the Church, the Pope even, recognises this. Now I know exactly where my loyalty lies. And I won’t be told that I am to leave the Church because some people here are SO uncharitable towards the rest of the world that only wishes to live its life peacefully and on its own terms.

No, that’s true, the Church does not have a monopoly over others. But God does. And by allowing others to live and promote sinful lifestyles, we are helping people to turn away from God. I’m just suggesting that in opposing same-sex marriage legislation you are actually helping to make a stand for the truth and hopefully help people see the truth.

That’s not true though, Dex. No one has a “right” to make an unjust law. Such a law is not a law at all. If they legislated to start slavery, we should oppose it, as it is unjust; if they legislated to allow embryonic stem cell research, ditto; and if they legislated to allow same-sex marriage, it’s the same boat: an unjust law.

I’m sorry if I’m coming over aggressive now. That’s what being told to ‘run very fast away from the Church’ does to me. It is my home and my life. Talk about ‘uncharitable…’ What a thing to do to a person! To tell them that is appalling. Some people should take a very long hard look at themselves in the mirror and do a long hard examination of their souls.

I know, Dex, and I’m sorry for being harsh too. I just know that we shouldn’t stand by and let society get worse. Our children have to grow up in this, God help them. I mean, our parents have a lot to answer for to God for allowing evil to happen in their day and age; so will we.

As a final point, what about legislating polygamy, you still didn’t answer it?

 

[jonathan_hili]

You are correct, my wrong. However, I think there is a fine line between those who argue it is none of our business and outright support. This is merely a personal opinion.

From my personal experience, I have seen my SSA BIL and his partners get loads of support for his lifestyle, and he is still completely miserable. He has substance abuse issues and depression. He is immature, rude and crass. He lives is a state that approved SSM. He has no care for that. He is yearning for acceptance of actions that are morally wrong. Deep down he knows this. I feel for him, but he hates the Church and has left it. Clearly, there is more to his grief than just the legalization of marriage.

I know. The two homosexual friends I have are the same, and rarely happy. I think this might be a predictably male phenomenon on the whole, as two men rarely work well together in that way.

 

[fix]

Dex isn’t arguing in favour of same-sex marriage, but rather that religious people should not try to interfere with efforts to legalise it because (from what I can gather) it is none of our business, it doesn’t help evangelisation and it will make more people unhappy. While I respect his sentiments, I think he’s primarily mistake is that he is confusing religious people who are against same-sex marriage (because they want to protect the true understanding of marriage) with religious arguments. I’d agree with him, that if we were just using religious arguments, secular society should pay little attention to us, but we are not arguing on the basis of religion but on natural law.

Also, to legislate a lie is never good, it doesn’t who is doing it and why. We should never support such legislation.

I must disagree here. First, support for these unjust laws is morally wrong. To support the effort or the law is to support SSM. There is no logical way around that. It is like supporting pro abortion laws.

Secondly, religious arguments are fine. The Christian faith has and must influence the law.

 

[fix]

Well isn’t that nice…?

Telling a Catholic to leave the Church… How very Christian of you.

In telling me I should not be listening to the Church, you just lost any hope of getting a hearing from me, my friend.

And, indeed, nowhere is it a dogma that I should always and everywhere agree with the Church. The Church has defined dogmas that I, as a Catholic have to believe, such as the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the existence of transubstantiation, etc.

But I am free to act within my own conscience about whether or not I agree with what the Church tells the rest of the world to do.

Note - AGAIN - that I am not telling anyone that ANY Catholic should contract a same sex ‘marriage’. Neither am I telling ANYONE that a Catholic should be allowed to commit sodomy or adultery or any other sins. I am telling people though that we are, in the words of the Bible, to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s - i.e., in this case, the right of the secular State to make and enact rules that it sees fit for people who are not Catholic to abide by. We have higher rules, rules that contradict the State’s and that is fine and I do not, for one second, deny those rules… but I am being told that I do not mean what I mean. Well, I will keep right on repeating that I do mean what I mean, and nobody else may tell me that I don’t.

I am repeatedly misrepresented here. My words are repeatedly taken and portrayed as opposing the Church and that in doing so I am therefore sinful and not Catholic. Well, I have news for you: the Catholic Church does not have a monopoly over the acts and desires of people WHO ARE NOT CATHOLIC. The Catholic Church is not a secular authority because, shock horror, 82% of the population of the planet are not Catholic (even nominally). These people have the right to make their own rules. If we want to stop those rules, we need to be in the majority. If we were in the majority, that would be just fine, but we’re not. And the Church, the Pope even, recognises this. Now I know exactly where my loyalty lies. And I won’t be told that I am to leave the Church because some people here are SO uncharitable towards the rest of the world that only wishes to live its life peacefully and on its own terms.

I’m sorry if I’m coming over aggressive now. That’s what being told to ‘run very fast away from the Church’ does to me. It is my home and my life. Talk about ‘uncharitable…’ What a thing to do to a person! To tell them that is appalling. Some people should take a very long hard look at themselves in the mirror and do a long hard examination of their souls.

This simply untrue. Catholics are bound to reject unjust laws. It does not have to be a matter of dogma to bind under pain of mortal sin. There is ample evidence in the CCC, encyclicals, Vatican directives , bishops statements, and basic moral theology that contradicts your words. In fact, I must be frank and tell you your position insults intelligence.

 

[jonathan_hili]

I must disagree here. First, support for these unjust laws is morally wrong. To support the effort or the law is to support SSM. There is no logical way around that. It is like supporting pro abortion laws.

Secondly, religious arguments are fine. The Christian faith has and must influence the law.

Hi Fix, I don’t think Dex does actually support the laws, he’s just not against them, kind of sitting on the side-lines. I admit, however, that being agnostic about a moral evil is, at best, problematic.

Yes, religious arguments are not in themselves bad, but in a secular society they don’t carry much weight. That’s why the argument against same-sex marriage has been mostly religiously neutral, which I think is fine because it is still a sound argument.

 

[90Domer]

I know. The two homosexual friends I have are the same, and rarely happy. I think this might be a predictably male phenomenon on the whole, as two men rarely work well together in that way.

Oh my, I hope you are not saying that all males are cranky. I would like to think that I keep my hubby happy (I am a woman, BTW).

 

[fix]

Hi Fix, I don’t think Dex does actually support the laws, he’s just not against them, kind of sitting on the side-lines. I admit, however, that being agnostic about a moral evil is, at best, problematic.

Yes, religious arguments are not in themselves bad, but in a secular society they don’t carry much weight. That’s why the argument against same-sex marriage has been mostly religiously neutral, which I think is fine because it is still a sound argument.

I am saying not to oppose unjust laws is to support them. Can you imagine being “agnostic” on pro slavery laws?

 

[Lamia]

Very well said !
This is really scary … This group is dominating the main stream media !
Prayers are needed !

 

[90Domer]

I must disagree here. First, support for these unjust laws is morally wrong. To support the effort or the law is to support SSM. There is no logical way around that. It is like supporting pro abortion laws.

Secondly, religious arguments are fine. The Christian faith has and must influence the law.

I have to agree with this.

 

[Slavonic]

I am saying not to oppose unjust laws is to support them. Can you imagine being “agnostic” on pro slavery laws?

I hope most folks don’t consider marriage slavery