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sennincatholic
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:thumbsup:thanks for this good commentary.Here’s a little bit from the Haydock Commentary about those verses:
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sennincatholic
Guest
Catholics don’t pray more to Mary than to God!Catholics pray for Mary’s intercession as we are poor sinners and She…who is our Mother will know best how to channel our prayers to God for Him to dispense unto us through the Holy Spirit the appropriate graces we need in this pilgrimage on earth.
Now…very devout Catholic christians are able to discern Mary’s role in the answering of their prayers like your Puerto Rican friend.That doesnt mean she is giving all credit to Mary.NO!All credit goes to God.
Our pope Francis for example has a very great devotion for Mary.However all of his messages and Homilies are centered soley around Christ.Through his devotion to Mary he is able to get into a greater awareness of Jesus.
So in a nutshell…Mary serves as a compass showing us the way to Jesus
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ChrisRedfield47
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You see…praying to Mary is ultimately praying to Jesus. Because our prayers that go to Mary go to Jesus. Its called intercession. Mary intercedes for us. This is true with all Saints. However, due to special relation between Jesus and Mary, her intercession is extremely valuable in God’s eyes. Therefore, when we Catholics pray to Mary, we pray to God.
Some folks seem to think that praying to Mary is therefore not praying to Jesus, as if we believed that our prayers end up with Mary alone.
As seen in the first post I made here, Mary is the new Queen. In the Old Testament, Queen Bathsheba spoke to her son King Solomon on behalf of Adonijah (this is intercession). However, despite the fact that King Solomon told her that he would not deny her request, he eventually did so.
In the New Testament, the new Queen (Mary) told her son (King Jesus), “They have no wine”. Even though it was not the hour of Jesus yet (as explained in the Gospel), Jesus turns water into wine at the request of his Mother. Therefore then, Mary played an important role here as intercessor. And you are invited to give your requests (prayers) to Mary, since she is greatly loved by her son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
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JohnR77
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Hi Chris. Thanks for doing such a great job of explaining proper Marian devotion. Perhaps my article on “Why Pray to Mary?” might be helpful to some. My attempt was to show that true devotion to her, i.e. one that honors God and honors her, leads us directly to Him. This a free pamphlet people can distribute if they choose to.
defendingthebride.com/direct/direct2.html
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ChrisRedfield47
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Thank you for your post and the link you provided! God bless you!Hi Chris. Thanks for doing such a great job of explaining proper Marian devotion. Perhaps my article on “Why Pray to Mary?” might be helpful to some. My attempt was to show that true devotion to her, i.e. one that honors God and honors her, leads us directly to Him. This a free pamphlet people can distribute if they choose to.
defendingthebride.com/direct/direct2.html
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Bodyandblood999
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Can you show me anywhere in Scripture where God tells us Jesus had any other kind of relationship with her besides that of son and mother? It would seem that following this line of reasoning, you would more likely want to have St Paul be your intercessor, because at least we KNOW from Scripture that Jesus brought Paul up to “the third heaven” and showed him things that it is not even lawful to repeat! (II Cor 12:2-4) Scripture never says anything of the kind about Mary. It was only men adding to Scripture that came up with other things about her. Certainly we should at least start from Scripture, shouldn’t we? Paul was taken up there and then commissioned to teach the gospel Jesus gave him. That looks to me to be something proving Paul was incredibly FAVORED!! Yet Paul tells us neither to use him nor Mary as an intercessor.
By the way, IICor 12:2-4 and Galatians 1:11,12–“I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.”–these are why we know Paul was the chief communicator of the gospel to the Gentiles, and why he could say with authority when he rebuked those who were adding works to the message of salvation (Galatian legalists), “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!”–Gal 1:6-9
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sennincatholic
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The problem with sola scripturists like you is that you cant even interprete correctly the very scripture you claim has all authority over matters of your faith.You choose parts which suit you and ignore parts which dont suit you.Thats being unfair to Holy Scripture…
Anyway…read John 2:1-11 and John 19:25-27 and tell me what you think about it.
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brb3
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I don’t think we can be sure Mary is Queen in Heaven, at the Rt. Hand spot.
Athanasius could of overreached on this one … although he was generally right on !!!
As you quote Jeremiah … the Queen was thrown down, off her throne.
And, more importantly, Christ never answered question of the Top Spot next to him … said it was up to the Father to decide.
And, if it was know to the Apostles, from Traditions taught them by Christ … they never mentioned it, or did anyone else for next 2oo-3oo yrs. … that I know of.
Athanasius could of overreached on this one … although he was generally right on !!!
As you quote Jeremiah … the Queen was thrown down, off her throne.
And, more importantly, Christ never answered question of the Top Spot next to him … said it was up to the Father to decide.
And, if it was know to the Apostles, from Traditions taught them by Christ … they never mentioned it, or did anyone else for next 2oo-3oo yrs. … that I know of.
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sennincatholic
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You ve raised good points but they don’t disqualify Mary as being queen.Rev 12.
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ChrisRedfield47
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Can you show me in Scripture where it says you must find a teaching in Scripture in order to believe it? The doctrine of sola scriptura itself isn’t biblical. When debating Catholics, do not assume we believe in that false doctrine. Your question assumes I am protestant and not Catholic. Ask a protestant to find you a Scripture verse as “proof”, because they (protestants) believe everything must be found in the bible alone. Don’t assume the same for Catholics or Orthodox. We don’t.
As the first Christians, we hold to Written and Oral Traditions. And our Traditions clearly put Mary as Queen. This of course does not contradict Scripture in anyway knowing that Jews themselves has as Queen the Mothers of their Kings.
Its a good suggestion but I’ll pass for now. I already have Mary as my intercessor, followed by my two patron Saints St. Jude the Apostle and St. Therese of Lisieux.
Same line of reasoning. Scripture doesn’t give you a list of books which are supposed to be considered as Scripture either
How’d you got that?Last I checked the ones adding to the Bible are protestants.
I thought you’d never ask
Where does it say in the bible you ought to find all the doctrines clearly and explicitly taught in the Bible in order to believe them. Verse please.Its pretty cool Paul had those privileges. I’m glad he went to Rome.
Your last sentence could be interpreted in two ways: Either you are stating that Paul said “Don’t use me or Mary as Intercessor”, words which of course can’t be found in the Bible, or you are telling me that Paul simply never mentioned to use him or Mary as intercessor. If the last is the case, then merely omitting something is not the same as rejecting it.
Also, you should know that when you pray for someone else, you are interceding for him. For example, you can intercede for your family here on earth by praying for them.
However when the word “Intercession” is used in Catholic Theology, it is usually used referring to those who intercede for us in Heaven (Saints). When Paul wrote his letters, it would be strange if he would have asked us, to ask him to intercede for us (as Saints do in Heaven), if:
1- Paul was still alive when he wrote his letters (and I’m thinking Mary was too).
2- He was too humble to even recognize himself as a Saint.
So your logic here clearly doesn’t work.
Amen to that! This is one of the reasons why I am Catholic.
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pablope
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JohnR77
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If you are serious about wanting to make a claim, where you presume that you actually know what the Bible teaches about Mary, then at the very minimum at least read Scott Hahn’s Book
Hail Holy Queen: The Mother of God in the Word of God
By Scott Hahn
Please realize that Christianity was illegal for about the first three hundred years. Very good arguments are made that we are missing one of Paul’s letters. Besides that many writings due to the material that they used and the passage of time have not survived, or at least they have not yet been discovered. So, when you start declaring “They did not say or write …” please qualify a little more clearly. Please note that the earliest written record of which books belong in the New Testament which matches exactly our list of 27 NT books only goes back to about 367 AD. So, any written record which predates that is ancient in biblical terms.
Now, lets look very briefly at what the Bible does say.
We can see that at least at the time of the Annunciation Mary is without sin. This is evident by the words that the Angel Gabriel speaks to Mary in Luke 1:28. The Angel, a messenger, is not speaking his own words, rather he is delivering God’s message to her. He says in
Luke 1: 28
“Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women.”
In the Greek the word for “full of grace” is “kecharitomene.” She is full of grace so there is no room for sin in her.
The word “kecharitomene” is a perfect passive participle of the verb “charitoo.”
With the exception of Jesus, NO ONE else is so full of grace, and therefore without sin. Although, Joseph who the Bible singles out to be “a just man” comes pretty close and is worthy of special consideration.
Considering the passage in Luke 11:27-28
"Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”
We (at least those who want to read the whole Bible) can see that Jesus is really saying why Mary is truly blessed. In the passage below, we see that she is most blessed, that is more blessed than ANY ONE else because of her faith and obedience even when her life was at stake since she could have been stoned for accepting pregnancy.
Luke 1:39-56
“ … and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit,
cried out in a loud voice and said, “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
…Blessed are **you who believed **that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”
… And Mary said: … behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed…” NAB
The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception can be found in what God says to Satan in
Genesis 3:14-15
“And the LORD God said unto the serpent … I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.” KJV
Identity of the Woman
All Christians agree that this is a prophecy about the Messiah, Jesus Christ, coming to strike the head of the serpent, Satan. - Actually the Hebrew word that is translated as “seed” is being used in a very unusual way. Normally it applies to the male, but here it is being used in reference to a woman. It is referring to Jesus’s birth through the Virgin Mary. - So, looking back at this Scripture we should appropriately ask ourselves, of which woman’s seed was He born ? The answer of course is Mary. Jesus even goes on to identify Mary as the “Woman” in John 2:4 , 19:26, and also see Revelation 12: 1, 5.
Revelation 11:19 - 12:17
“Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the** ark of his covenant **was seen within his temple… And a great portent appeared in heaven, a **woman **clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was **with child **and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery. … she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne … 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. … And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had borne the male child. … 17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus.”
The contents of the Ark, such as the manna, represented Jesus Christ. Mary had within her womb not just something that prefigured Jesus, but Jesus himself. Therefore, she is the Ark of the New Covenant and is greater than the Ark of the Old Covenant.
The division of the books of the Bible into chapters did not happen until the middle ages. So, Revelation chapter 11 flows right into chapter 12.
Also see
Satan’s Enemy #1
defendingthebride.com/ma2/number.html
This is really just a brief overview. You need to read the book above. But at least notice that no human being is extolled more highly than Mary.
John
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JohnR77
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The Bible does support the Saints in heaven interceding for us based on the ONE Mediator-ship of Christ.
defendingthebride.com/ma3/only9.html
defendingthebride.com/ma3/only.html
catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints
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JohnR77
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defendingthebride.com/mo/justification.html
PETER + PAUL + GALATIANS = DISSENT ?
defendingthebride.com/ch/pa/gatatians.html
Let’s look at what the Bible, Quoting St. Paul, says is the pillar of truth.
1 Timothy 3:15
" … the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth."
By what authority do you determine which books belong in the New Testament ?
The oldest list we have that matches our 27 books only goes back to 367 AD. All lists that predate that one do not match our New Testament canon.
See
defendingthebride.com/ch/ca/rock1.html
John
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brb3
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Tell us more on this. What would that missing letter of talked of ? If it were found at this late date, would we be allowed to add it to the Canon ?
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JohnR77
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See
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=7248
Note: Your question is based on the speculation that we would find such a letter. Any answer is further speculation. The Pope, or Ecumenical council under his authority and whose decisions would have to be affirmed by that Pope, would have to decide the question.
But if you are really wanting my speculation, I think our canon is closed with our 72 Books, or 73 if you are counting Jeremiah and his Lamentations as separate Books.
defendingthebride.com/bb/deuterocanonical.html
John
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Bodyandblood999
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pablope
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No friend…He gave her to us on the Cross…behold your mother…to properly emulate Jesus…we do as He did…honor our own mothers…and His mother too.
That is because Mary was alive in their lifetime. And Paul wrote to the Christian communities problems…not about Mary.
On the other hand…you should stop going to anti catholic websites who promote pagan connections…it is very telling and affecting your judgement.
It was in fact pagans who had qualms about the new Christians…they taught they were cannibals due to their belief in the Real Presence…and harbored resentment against them for thier beliefs in relics…*Pagans, like Julian-the-Apostate, found the practice revolting and legislated against it. (Paganism, with its notions of ritual purity, had strictly delimited the realm of divine worship and neatly separated it from the realm of corpses and the dead. * calledtocommunion.com/2012/08/relics-saints-and-the-assumption-of-mary/
In fact, it was the pagans who harbored resentment againts the first catholics…so it looks like you are taking from where they left off…
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HillbillyHermit
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I just don’t get why people would come to a Catholic forum and try to tell people how wrong its teachings are. The same Church BTW that Jesus founded, gave teaching authority to, and promised the Holy Spirit to guide.
I could go on, but really…
Believe the teachings of THE Church with Apostolic succession…
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What someone says on a forum against it using their own private interpretation of God’s Word?
Hmmm…
I’ll give ya 3 guesses which one I’m goin’ with.
I could go on, but really…
Believe the teachings of THE Church with Apostolic succession…
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What someone says on a forum against it using their own private interpretation of God’s Word?
Hmmm…
I’ll give ya 3 guesses which one I’m goin’ with.
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Bodyandblood999
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In fact, it was the pagans who harbored resentment againts the first catholics…so it looks like you are taking from where they left off…Code:[calledtocommunion.com/2012/08/relics-saints-and-the-assumption-of-mary/](http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2012/08/relics-saints-and-the-assumption-of-mary/)
Jesus gave Mary to John. It’s good to read those passages. If you spend the amount of time that Peter, Paul, James, John and Jude instructed Christians to think about or pray to Mary, and the rest on Jesus, you will be in great shape. Based on Scripture, it will be about one out of every thousand hours of prayer and study.
What you said about the purpose of Paul’s and Peter’s etc writing is way off. They wrote to establish the doctrine of the church, as well as to deal with problems. The most deadly problems were false doctrine, including legalism–teaching that something other than faith in Christ saves.
I didn’t go to an anti-catholic website to get that info on mother/child worship. It’s been common knowledge for centuries.
The charge of cannibalism was leveled against the church long before the Roman Catholic Church evolved.
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