Why? Modesty?

[strugglingalong]

Now some of you maybe disagree with me. I’m what is considered a traditional Catholic - even though I think I am just Catholic. I attend the traditional Latin Mass. I believe in traditional Catholic theology and teaching. I don’t think Vatican II was some new thing for the Church. In a different thread I am having to argue for why bikinis are immodest. Are you serious?

I’ve had to argue elsewhere about why Jews need to come to faith in Jesus Christ for their salvation instead of waiting for the Messiah. Really?

There is even a thread asking why nakedness is immodest? Come on.

I can’t believe Catholics - Catholics who claim to be orthodox - can even ask such things. Is this what we’ve come to? Are Catholics that modernized and de-sensitized? Have so many Catholics become so like the world?

It’s sad. We need to pray. I’m sorry to vent but honestly, am I the only one shocked? Why am I considered the “extremist” when I just say what had always been believed, what modesty had always been practiced, before the modern era?

I can understand discussions on doctrine before and after Vatican II or about liturgy. I can see those issues and debates. But some of this stuff is just amazing to me…

Deep breath

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[TMGallyon85]

I am only 22 and I struggle with issues regarding modesty and I have seen what you are talking about. Especially on catholic forums. I have seen forums where catholics debated with me over whether watching sex scenes and seeing nude people in movies was ok. There was a time where catholics were banned from seeing Gone with the wind. For me modesty and chastity are day to day struggles. I dont see how watching nudie pics is helping our faith nor is embracing secularist values.

 

[KingAlfred]

Now some of you maybe disagree with me. I’m what is considered a traditional Catholic - even though I think I am just Catholic. I attend the traditional Latin Mass. I believe in traditional Catholic theology and teaching. I don’t think Vatican II was some new thing for the Church. In a different thread I am having to argue for why bikinis are immodest. Are you serious?

I’ve had to argue elsewhere about why Jews need to come to faith in Jesus Christ for their salvation instead of waiting for the Messiah. Really?

There is even a thread asking why nakedness is immodest? Come on.

I can’t believe Catholics - Catholics who claim to be orthodox - can even ask such things. Is this what we’ve come to? Are Catholics that modernized and de-sensitized? Have so many Catholics become so like the world?

It’s sad. We need to pray. I’m sorry to vent but honestly, am I the only one shocked? Why am I considered the “extremist” when I just say what had always been believed, what modesty had always been practiced, before the modern era?

I can understand discussions on doctrine before and after Vatican II or about liturgy. I can see those issues and debates. But some of this stuff is just amazing to me…

Deep breath

Pax Christi tecum.

I stopped being surprised when I noticed the growing number of masturbation threads. At one point I considered recommending to The Management that they create a separate, official forum for masturbation topics.

 

[strugglingalong]

I am only 22 and I struggle with issues regarding modesty and I have seen what you are talking about. Especially on catholic forums. I have seen forums where catholics debated with me over whether watching sex scenes and seeing nude people in movies was ok. There was a time where catholics were banned from seeing Gone with the wind. For me modesty and chastity are day to day struggles. I dont see how watching nudie pics is helping our faith nor is embracing secularist values.

Yes and how difficult was the struggle for men back when women were covered fully, when bodies weren’t on display in movies and television, and back when immorality was considered wrong? I am sure men still struggled but nothing like today. So many go to hell for sins of the flesh, so many Saints tell us, and right now satan is really taking many down.

I think we each just need to order our lives so we don’t fall prey to his traps and we just need to stay near Jesus so He’ll save us from them in the hour of temptation. He’s the Strong One.

Jesus, save us. Lord, save Your Church in these days.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[Father_JohnBerg]

“Whomsoever causes a little one to sin…”

Remember that Bible verse? Well, a woman (or a man for that matter) that dresses immodestly can certainly cause a ‘little one’ – a person who might not be perfectly in control of their body, so commit Mortal Sin. So yes, I totally agree that bikinis (or those horrible bikini swiming suits) are totally bad, and it is almost a Mortal Sin to wear one. As Archbishop Burke said during a recent election before he was screamed at by Rome, “I advise you not to recieve Communion if you vote for a pro-abortion politicion.”

I seem to recall somewhere in Acts of the Apostles something about how women can’t even have their heads uncovered?? Well, we certainly seem to be in an age where very little is uncovered. Do not fall in with the crowd that behaves like this.

 

[strugglingalong]

“Whomsoever causes a little one to sin…”

Remember that Bible verse? Well, a woman (or a man for that matter) that dresses immodestly can certainly cause a ‘little one’ – a person who might not be perfectly in control of their body, so commit Mortal Sin. So yes, I totally agree that bikinis (or those horrible bikini swiming suits) are totally bad, and it is almost a Mortal Sin to wear one. As Archbishop Burke said during a recent election before he was screamed at by Rome, “I advise you not to recieve Communion if you vote for a pro-abortion politicion.”

I seem to recall somewhere in Acts of the Apostles something about how women can’t even have their heads uncovered?? Well, we certainly seem to be in an age where very little is uncovered. Do not fall in with the crowd that behaves like this.

Thank you, Father. Absolutely! Not only do we live in a day when immodesty is everywhere, charity is also so very cold. One will say, “Well if what I do causes them to sin then they are weak and that is not my problem.” That is not charity. That is not the Christian mindset.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[jrcarr]

strugglingalong,

Good for you to be able to detect the infection breeding in the Catholic Church today. Your assessment of Vatican II is correct; it’s decrees and pronouncements did not authorize the extreme changes that occurred afterwards.Sadly, the Faithful were lead astray by bishops and priests who acted capriciously 'in the spirit of Vatican II", without authorization from either the Council or the Vatican. We are now left with a generation or two of confused, lapsed, ex-Catholics. Most of this disharmony, I believe, is the fault of the Church itself. Why shouldn’t the Faithful believe that what was going on was valid? Were we expected to read the documents from the Council?

Only in recent years have I seen the Church slowly become aware of the disorganized and sometimes heretical activities going on in the Church. I see a slow turn back to Vatican rule, the demand that Catholics cannot believe as they wish and remain Catholic.

Most of my childhood was pre-Vatican, so I remember what it was like for all Catholics to intuitively know their Religion. The questions asked here that you refer to, would never have been asked by anyone over the age of ten. Catholics now act more like Protestants in their cafeteria style approach to the sacred.

The Church has been so interested in appealing to other faiths that it has compromised it’s uniqueness. Why? If we are the one true Church formed by Christ, why should we take on their image? If the “father” is still the head of the household, how can a “son” say that he is the same? And why should this father dress and act like his son to appease him? Catholicism has nothing to hide or fear, except the apostasy from within.

 

[SeekerJen]

Now some of you maybe disagree with me. I’m what is considered a traditional Catholic - even though I think I am just Catholic. I attend the traditional Latin Mass. I believe in traditional Catholic theology and teaching. I don’t think Vatican II was some new thing for the Church. In a different thread I am having to argue for why bikinis are immodest. Are you serious?

I’ve had to argue elsewhere about why Jews need to come to faith in Jesus Christ for their salvation instead of waiting for the Messiah. Really?

There is even a thread asking why nakedness is immodest? Come on.

I can’t believe Catholics - Catholics who claim to be orthodox - can even ask such things. Is this what we’ve come to? Are Catholics that modernized and de-sensitized? Have so many Catholics become so like the world?

It’s sad. We need to pray. I’m sorry to vent but honestly, am I the only one shocked? Why am I considered the “extremist” when I just say what had always been believed, what modesty had always been practiced, before the modern era?

I can understand discussions on doctrine before and after Vatican II or about liturgy. I can see those issues and debates. But some of this stuff is just amazing to me…

Deep breath

Pax Christi tecum.

You do realize that the “nudity” thread was one mean-spirited poster’s attempt to make fun of another poster, don’t you, and that the poster who started the nudity thread has been suspended? It was intended as sarcasm. There isn’t anyone here seriously arguing in favor of nudity outside of the privacy of one’s own home.

I don’t think you’re an extremist. However, your original post on the bikini thread was unclear, and as many of us women are now used to being told that we should be wearing the western equivalent of burkas so that men don’t have to look at us, I had to delve into your meaning to understand that what you were saying was not unreasonable, that you were not in fact telling us to go around in baggy tents (which is how I read your initial post). There is no excuse for a woman to walk around with her clothes painted on, her underwear hanging out, and nearly all that should be hidden revealed for public display. However, there is a broad spectrum between that and “arms covered to wrists, legs covered to ankles, no pants, no heeled or open-toed shoes, only baggy clothing and only high collars”. I think there are many modest, feminine options for women without going to the latter extreme. If I’m not mistaken, we are in agreement on that.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

For those of you who have The Catechism of the Catholic Church. Read what it says under its explanation of the 9th Commandment. It covers modesty very well and what is expected. It is very through and easy to understand.

A measure of the dress you should have today, could be judged by what was proper prior to the 1960’s sexual revolution. Before you think I am a prude, which if you want to, I will gladly accept as a title, consider how the “envelope has been pushed” from then until now. People today think nothing of nudity or sex scenes or anything like that. Yet, if it is not so wrong, why are you uncomfortable watching it with your children, regardless of their age. That should tell you something. Of my 5 children, (the youngest is 36) they all say that if they would feel uncomfortable watching something with either me or my wife, they should not be watching it.

We are having the values of a godless Hollywood being shoved down our throats and most of us are too mindless to realize what is going on. It seems some are like this in an effort to show how “broad minded” (pardon the double entendre) we are or how cool we are. People used to be proud to say what they believed was morally acceptable. Now they think its shameful as they are “pushing their values” (as if they had any to start with) on others. If we had strong values, we would not be ashamed to express them.

Remember what Jesus said. If anyone denies me (and that includes his teachings) I will deny them before my Father. Love of God entails love of those things that are of God, not those that are of man and of the world.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Layp3rs0n]

I agree with a lot of what is being said here. However, can we please stop hapring on Vatican II? Let us remember it was an Ecumenical Council, one just as authoritative as the Counsel of Nicea. Let us stop questioning Counsels that are guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Cari]

You do realize that the “nudity” thread was one mean-spirited poster’s attempt to make fun of another poster, don’t you, and that the poster who started the nudity thread has been suspended? It was intended as sarcasm. There isn’t anyone here seriously arguing in favor of nudity outside of the privacy of one’s own home.

I wondered that same thing about the OP’s post. Sometimes the tone a post takes is very, very difficult to parse out over a computer screen, and satire (even terribly mean-spirited satire) is easy to confuse with sincerity.

As for the bikini thread, if one ran a search on the OP’s other posts, it’s easy to see that she comes across as very liberal in all aspects of life, not just dressing. I would hesitate to paint all Catholics with the same brush.

many of us women are now used to being told that we should be wearing the western equivalent of burkas so that men don’t have to look at us

I, too, am weary of the “Catholic Amish dress code” that seems to be the dream of so many posters here. And when combined with a certain poll about women giving up their right to vote so we (women) don’t keep voting for abortion, welfare, and the disinegration of Western civilization at the hands of Muslim immigrants, the whole taste of abject misogyny is hard to wash out of one’s mouth.

There is no excuse for a woman to walk around with her clothes painted on, her underwear hanging out, and nearly all that should be hidden revealed for public display. However, there is a broad spectrum between that and “arms covered to wrists, legs covered to ankles, no pants, no heeled or open-toed shoes, only baggy clothing and only high collars”. I think there are many modest, feminine options for women without going to the latter extreme.

But now that I think about it, it IS a human desire to entertain oneself with extremes.

 

[mammallama]

A lot has changed in the past twenty years.Back then I was having my second child…no where did you see pregnant women flitting around with little tube tops.The “bad” stuff on TV was on pay channels.The kids could watch cartoons without X-rated commercials in between shows.It goes on and on.

I think it must be difficult to be a young person now…and Heaven help the parents who are raising little ones with all this debauchery everywhere

 

[strugglingalong]

A lot has changed in the past twenty years.Back then I was having my second child…no where did you see pregnant women flitting around with little tube tops.The “bad” stuff on TV was on pay channels.The kids could watch cartoons without X-rated commercials in between shows.It goes on and on.

I think it must be difficult to be a young person now…and Heaven help the parents who are raising little ones with all this debauchery everywhere

I agree. Honestly, I think we’re in really difficult times. I wonder how many souls are being lost every day just because of the temptations that constantly surround them. How quickly have things changed! It astonishes me that many women get fiercely upset about having to cover themselves when for centuries people understood the need to be covered. Virtue is no longer prized. It makes for a very sad world.

I think it is really difficult for young people now - and add to that the disintegration of the family that is going on and how could it be any more difficult? And the Church is struggling with her own problems and is being infected itself (though not overcome). I can see how these things occur in the world but when Catholics speak well - not just struggle with it - of immodesty or immortality or heresy then it just … is amazing to me…

And yes, Vatican II played a role. While it wasn’t the council documents that authorized what has happened it did present this change of mind - to open the Church to the modern world. Many - including Card. Ratzinger - said that Vatican II was pastoral so it didn’t even concern itself with dogma. Now we’ll need a Vatican III more sweeping than Trent to clean up all of the heresies running rampant. Jesus save us.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[allana]

I’m 22 and i always dress modestly, its just the way i am, but i have always wondered this… didn’t Adam and Eve roam the Garden of Eden NAKED and only felt the need to cover themselves AFTER eating the forbidden fruit, and they did so in shame?
Am i interpreting this wrongly?

 

[turtle18]

I stopped being surprised when I noticed the growing number of masturbation threads. At one point I considered recommending to The Management that they create a separate, official forum for masturbation topics.

I know. It is amazing how the moderators banned political topics & now they are banning Church music topics. But we can have 50% of the threads on the forums related to masturbation? This place is going down hill quick. It is very hard to find any deep spirituality or joy on these forums.

 

[TMGallyon85]

Allana you are interpreting it correctly.

 

[strugglingalong]

I’m 22 and i always dress modestly, its just the way i am, but i have always wondered this… didn’t Adam and Eve roam the Garden of Eden NAKED and only felt the need to cover themselves AFTER eating the forbidden fruit, and they did so in shame?
Am i interpreting this wrongly?

Yes allana. The problem is, as you point out, original sin! Once Adam and Eve fell, ate of the fruit, then their eyes were open in that they saw evil. Their intellects became darkened, the emotions had the potential to override right reason, and the will was weakened. This opened the potential to see another’s body as something to be used for selfish enjoyment. That is the issue, the weakness resulting from the fall. Before the fall it was not a problem.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[otjm]

Modesty is an interesting topic; it tends to bring out rather strong opinions.

Just a thought, to give some perspective: Michelangelo was born in 1475; a tad bit before Trent.

Given the power of the Church in Italy, for example, from the time of Michelangelo’s birth to, say, Vatican 1, would we not all agree that modesty then was perhaps a bit more practiced than,say, since MTV came around?

Ad if we can assume that there is some truth in that - that modesty in general, and in particular in Italy was lead by Church example, then why do we still have (and have had just about all that time) all of the nude statutes which he carved (not to mention all the other artists who did so)?

If the Church was leading the issue of modesty from, say, 1500 through 1900, how do the nude statutes fit in to the picture? How was modesty defined then by the Church and how do the nude statutes fit into that definition?

I am not suggesting that modesty is not important. I do suggest that the issue is not, perhaps, as black and white as some would paint it - burkahs and all that.

 

[UKcatholicGuy]

Now some of you maybe disagree with me. I’m what is considered a traditional Catholic - even though I think I am just Catholic. I attend the traditional Latin Mass. I believe in traditional Catholic theology and teaching. I don’t think Vatican II was some new thing for the Church. In a different thread I am having to argue for why bikinis are immodest. Are you serious?

I’ve had to argue elsewhere about why Jews need to come to faith in Jesus Christ for their salvation instead of waiting for the Messiah. Really?

There is even a thread asking why nakedness is immodest? Come on.

I can’t believe Catholics - Catholics who claim to be orthodox - can even ask such things. Is this what we’ve come to? Are Catholics that modernized and de-sensitized? Have so many Catholics become so like the world?

It’s sad. We need to pray. I’m sorry to vent but honestly, am I the only one shocked? Why am I considered the “extremist” when I just say what had always been believed, what modesty had always been practiced, before the modern era?

I can understand discussions on doctrine before and after Vatican II or about liturgy. I can see those issues and debates. But some of this stuff is just amazing to me…

Deep breath

Pax Christi tecum.

Yes, welcome to the twisted world of Neo-Catholicism! You won’t find anywhere more saturated with NeoCatholics than CAF. Don’t get discouraged-- you’re perfectly correct in your convictions.

Sadly, the vast majority of modern Catholics have imbibed the modern spirit, which kills the soul. They have compromised their faith to make friends with the world. After all, this is essentially what happened with Vatican II.

If you are not already doing so, I highly recommend attending your local chapel of the SSPX. The good holy priests and laity there will help you keep your faith in these insane times.

God bless you.

 

[strugglingalong]

Modesty is an interesting topic; it tends to bring out rather strong opinions.

Just a thought, to give some perspective: Michelangelo was born in 1475; a tad bit before Trent.

Given the power of the Church in Italy, for example, from the time of Michelangelo’s birth to, say, Vatican 1, would we not all agree that modesty then was perhaps a bit more practiced than,say, since MTV came around?

Ad if we can assume that there is some truth in that - that modesty in general, and in particular in Italy was lead by Church example, then why do we still have (and have had just about all that time) all of the nude statutes which he carved (not to mention all the other artists who did so)?

If the Church was leading the issue of modesty from, say, 1500 through 1900, how do the nude statutes fit in to the picture? How was modesty defined then by the Church and how do the nude statutes fit into that definition?

I am not suggesting that modesty is not important. I do suggest that the issue is not, perhaps, as black and white as some would paint it - burkahs and all that.

I should think a statue differs from a real person since an act cannot involve a statue (usually!) but a person is something that can be had and desired.

Pax Christi tecum.