Why? Modesty?

[strugglingalong]

Yes, welcome to the twisted world of Neo-Catholicism! You won’t find anywhere more saturated with NeoCatholics than CAF. Don’t get discouraged-- you’re perfectly correct in your convictions.

Sadly, the vast majority of modern Catholics have imbibed the modern spirit, which kills the soul. They have compromised their faith to make friends with the world. After all, this is essentially what happened with Vatican II.

If you are not already doing so, I highly recommend attending your local chapel of the SSPX. The good holy priests and laity there will help you keep your faith in these insane times.

God bless you.

Thank you for your kind words. I agree that very many Catholics - even those who claim orthodoxy - are tainted with the spirit of the modern world. The “opening up to the modern world” of the Council created, for sure, a dangerous mentality of trying to accept as much of the modern spirit as possible. Happily the Church will survive even this difficult age as she has many before it!

While I can agree with much Archbishop Lefebvre said and did, and while I think the SSPX has many holy Bishops and Priests, I think they need to come to full, regular communion with the Church just as the Transalpine Redemptorists did recently. They can return, especially with Benedict XVI in the chair, and have the traditional Mass and preach the traditional Faith. We need them to do so. All that to say I couldn’t attend SSPX. I’m quite blessed at my local traditional Latin Mass community.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[otjm]

I should think a statue differs from a real person since an act cannot involve a statue (usually!) but a person is something that can be had and desired.

Pax Christi tecum.

Pictures aren’t real persons either; but I don’t think that we need to presume that pictures and statutes are of the same in terms of attraction of attention.

Many people are offended by nude statutes, as they are by pictures of nudes; often (but not always), pictures of nudes are sexually provocative (e.g. Playboy). I think the answer runs deeper.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Why modesty? So we are not an occasion of sin for another person. Immodesty is an occasion of sin for others that some people just dont realize. When one dresses provocatively, one also sins by being an occasion of sin. You often hear people saying, if that is the way others think, thats not my fault. Well - guess again. This is simply part of caring for your fellow human beings and wanting what is best for them as well. It’s not a matter of being educated, or liberated, or broad minded (pardon the pun) It is all about caring. This goes for men as well as women. It’s not just one sided.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[strugglingalong]

Pictures aren’t real persons either; but I don’t think that we need to presume that pictures and statutes are of the same in terms of attraction of attention.

Many people are offended by nude statutes, as they are by pictures of nudes; often (but not always), pictures of nudes are sexually provocative (e.g. Playboy). I think the answer runs deeper.

Yes but pictures are generally of real people and show real people which presents to the mind the thought of carrying out the actions whereas no one is going to think of carrying out the action with a statue. I do think the issue goes deeper though, just as you say, of provocative poses and things.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[strugglingalong]

Based on conversations I’ve had on these forums about Catholic principles of modesty in dress, I’d like to hear what people think is modest.

What are the Catholic principles of modesty in dress?

What is modest? What is immodest? How do you know?

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[Laurie_86]

I think for myself personally it is hard to always know what the rules of modesty should be rather it is a mindset. To some people wearing a skirt above your knees is immodest while to others it is a skirt that rests mid-thigh or higher. It’s all really subjective. So it is hard to put definite rules on it.

I think sometimes at the heart dressing immodestly is our own selfish desire to be seen, heard, and cared for. We dress immodestly out of the idea that if we get the attention we’ll get the affection we desire and that will satisfy our hearts. Truth is though the affection and care of this world cannot satisfy our hearts…that spot was reserved for Christ of course! I find the closer I am to Christ the more I realize the importance of purity of dress, mind, and heart.

My rule has always been when in doubt don’t wear it. If there is ever a question in my mind whether a shirt is too revealing I won’t buy it. I also get a lot of modesty advice from my mother, aunt, and grandmother…just not always fashion advice! I’ve always been a big fan of layering shirts so if I get a shirt with a neckline that is too low I can put a light weight shirt underneath to solve the problem. As a rule of thumb I usually buy skirts that are either at the knee or just above, but I rarely wear skirts cause pants are easier to stay modest with.

Also something to think about is how pants hang. I find it so inappropriate personally when you can see anyone underwear and I think guys need a talking to when it comes to low jeans showing off their boxers! It’s called a belt! If women are called to modesty and purity aren’t men as well?

I’m not really certain on the Catholic doctrine on modest dress because I’m still converting so I can’t given you advice on that. Hopefully someone else has insight into that!

 

[RyanML]

Based on conversations I’ve had on these forums about Catholic principles of modesty in dress, I’d like to hear what people think is modest.

What are the Catholic principles of modesty in dress?

What is modest? What is immodest? How do you know?

Pax Christi tecum.

While it can’t be considered as binding, I think the standards of Pope Pius XII are a really good starting place. I think they could certainly be tailored (no pun intended ) for modern women without loosing the spirit of what Pius was trying to do. I have known many traditional Catholic families who follow a very strict modesty, all in the spirit of “Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam”, and though I may not agree with the necessity of a certain “old fashioned” standard as many traditional women and mothers enforce, the devotion and love of God that often inspires it is commendable.

 

[HOPEFUL_IN_UK]

I think most people who focus on modesty think only in terms of sexual titillation. But, I think it has to do with humility and not seeking attention. Sexual admiration is only one form or attention. Wearing flashy or luxurious clothes may be another form of immodesty.

 

[peregrinator_it]

Based on conversations I’ve had on these forums about Catholic principles of modesty in dress, I’d like to hear what people think is modest.

What are the Catholic principles of modesty in dress?

What is modest? What is immodest? How do you know?

strugglingalong, this is the last I intend to post on this subject-- therefore I intend to be thorough. This will be long, but since you asked, I hope you will be willing to read it all.

Questions like the above require starting out with general principles (“What are Catholic principles of modesty?”) and working down to specifics (based on those Catholic principles, what would be a modest dress code?)

As to the question “How do you know?” I am going to work exclusively from the Catechism of the Catholic Church because it is current and authoritative.

2521 Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. … [Modesty] means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. … It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons …

I think Catholic principles of modesty in dress have two main components.

1. If modesty “means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden” it follows that modesty in clothing entails not needlessly flaunting one’s body.

Not flaunting one’s body has to do with more than just how much skin is showing: take, for example, “Madonna’s” costumes in 80s (?), underwear on top of clothes isn’t modest. Clothes which are unnecessarily tight can also be immodest.

1. Modesty is required by (follows from) purity of heart; thus modesty involves intent, as well. Intending to attract sexual attention or to lead others into sin is not modest, no matter what clothes one is wearing.

2524 The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. … Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man.

Not flaunting one’s body is partly determined by the culture one lives in. I think it is also more finely determined by what activities a person is engaged in. Thus to go around showing more skin/shape than is acceptable in a culture without good reason would be flaunting one’s body.

Wearing a swimming suit or a tube top (if a woman) to do clerical work would be flaunting one’s body as there’s no practical reason to be that scantily clothed while filing.

I think if one ought to choose clothing that is practical for the tasks one is undertaking and does not show any more of the body than is acceptable in the culture and necessary for the task.

True modesty is the result of a recognition of man’s spiritual dignity, thus I think it is false to call the burkah-wearing cultures of the Middle East modest. Women there may be covered, but they do not cover themselves because society understands their spiritual dignity. Quite the opposite.

Now to the dress code- specific to Northern California, USA (where I grew up) between 1978 and 2008:

I would feel I was revealing/flaunting my body if I wore the following:

any top showing cleavage, any thing that reveals underwear, anything “painted on,” anything that hits above the knee (I don’t generally wear shorts; but I do think they’re appropriate for hiking)

Note that this is a general dress code, not a dress code for specific occasions (i.e. Mass.) Within the realm of modest dress, there are customs that say what is appropriate for specific occasions. I feel jeans are entirely appropriate for weed-whacking the back yard, but not appropriate for church, etc.

 

[TMGallyon85]

Venerable Pope Pius XII’s Statements on modesty are indeed a good point of reference. Just because it is 2008 doesn’t mean we can’t apply them.

 

[K_Dog]

I’ve read the posts regarding this thread (thank you all for some excellent points), & others related with a high interest, not only wanting to think, act, & be a sign of what the Lord expects of me personally, but greatly because of the work I feel the Lord has chosen for me. In that ministry, dealing with persons that make up that sub-culture, far too often I have to deal with the farthest extremes of immorality & modesty in about every way one could imagine.

I minister to those in the biker world. Not only motorcycle riders, but those who feel themselves the ‘rejects’ of society, some of the worse of the worst. I do so, because, coming from that culture & background, & since reverting back to my Catholic faith, I closely see the need for sharing the Truth of the Gospel, & also know that if you’re going to minister there, you have to be real, be able to truly relate, in order to be trusted & gain acceptance, so that you will be listened to. I have seen too many times where well-meaning people have tried & failed to preach to such persons, even to the point of being physically attacked. Such attempts only lend to the ineffectiveness of the Gospel, & our enemy fully knows this.

You might wonder, why do I place myself there, why do I attempt to walk in such darkness, with such propensity to danger, & such occasion for temptations? Especially since at one time (I call them the 'B.C. days", Before Christ), I lived as one of them, pretty much a dredge of society? A good question, & one I struggled with for years in trying to discern. Some old addages came to mind…“It takes one to know one”, etc. The best addictions counselor is the recovering addict…I’ve been both.

We Catholic Christians believe we have the fullness of truth, we have the best of all that is important & needed to fight the spiritual war that exists, even stronger today. We have our Church, the Catechism, & power & gifts of the Holy Spirit behind us. Yet, we complain of what we see in the world, communities, neighborhoods, & sadly, in our own parishes. Why? Because while we’ve ALWAYS had the power behind or with us, WE are ultimately responsible for what we are complaining about. This current immoral generation is only the product of what came before it. I am just as guilty. It cycles over & over. But not until we drop our fear of being chided & derised, & take a stand against what we see, will we make any kind of difference. There are ways, starting within our own families, neighborhoods & communities. We are Catholic, & even in this battle, Jesus’ words apply…the gates of hell shall not prevail.