Why more Marian feasts than ones for Jesus?

[benedictgal]

Forgive me for jumping in without reading every post but in case no one has said it: every Sunday is a Feast of Jesus or the Holy Trinity and no Marian feast ever takes precedence over the Sunday Feast and Liturgy. Hope that helps.

Catharina, you need to make a clarification here. During Ordinary Time, when the Solemnities of Sts. Peter and Paul, the Birth of St. John the Baptist, the Conversion of St. Paul, the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Transfiguration of Our Lord, the Triumph of the Holy Cross and All Saints fall on a Sunday, they supercede those Sundays.

Furthermore, during Ordinary Time, if a parish or a diocese has a patronal feast, they can receive a special dispensation to substitute the Sunday readings for those used for in the feast day.

When the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception falls on a Sunday during Advent, that Sunday takes precedence over the feast because it falls during a penitential feast. Ditto for anything that happens during Lent.

I hope this helps.

 

[catharina]

Catharina, you need to make a clarification here. During Ordinary Time, when the Solemnities of Sts. Peter and Paul, the Birth of St. John the Baptist, the Conversion of St. Paul, the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Transfiguration of Our Lord, the Triumph of the Holy Cross and All Saints fall on a Sunday, they supercede those Sundays.

Furthermore, during Ordinary Time, if a parish or a diocese has a patronal feast, they can receive a special dispensation to substitute the Sunday readings for those used for in the feast day.

When the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception falls on a Sunday during Advent, that Sunday takes precedence over the feast because it falls during a penitential feast. Ditto for anything that happens during Lent.

I hope this helps.

benedictgal - thank you. I’ll skip making any clarification since you made one so well. It’s still my impression that even in Ordinary Time, there is a lot of leeway given to religious communities and dioceses that tends to support the Sunday liturgy in the first place. Exceptions to the rule are exceptions to the rule. Or have I only lived in very conservative archdioceses? Chicago? San Francisco? Hmmmm.

 

[twf]

Isa: Despite everything myself and various posters have explained to you on this thread you continue to insist that Latins tend to “focus on Mary” and exclude Christ. I would like to see your documentation for this claim. It’s possible that some individuals do this, but if so, they do no know the true Mary. My original statement stands: It is absolutely impossible to venerate Mary without drawing closer to Christ. Do not the Orthodox cry out “Holy Theotokos, save us!”. You would never catch a Latin saying this…so it goes both ways. (Btw, I am not criticizing the above referenced devotion, rather my point is that when not properly understood our respective devotions may appear to be strange to outsiders). Yes there are images of Mary without Christ. Many of our statues and icons of Mary do, however, indeed show her with the Holy Child. It is absurd, however, to suggest that it is wrong to depict Mary without the Christ Child. She is the Queen of Heaven and is to be venerated in that capacity as well. Mary serves as a model of the Church and of discipleship. She currently reigns as Queen of Heaven, and in that capacity Christ is fully grown and glorified, sitting at the right hand of the Father. She can’t always be depicted with the Christ-Child…that would an incomplete depiction of her vocation.

As for co-redemptrix, this term, while not a dogma, is perfectly true when understood correctly. Your own Orthodox Bishop Kallistos Ware, while opposed to the CC defining a new dogma, agrees that it is a correct description of Our Lady. (see cs.ust.hk/faculty/dimitris/metro/aug01/AUG01.html#ORTHOVIEW)
In Christ with Mary,
Tyler

 

[benedictgal]

Perhaps this will help settle the issue:

Proclamation of the Date of Easter on the Feast of the Epiphany

Dear Brothers and Sisters:

The glory of the Lord has shone upon us, and shall ever be manifest among us until the day of his return. Through rhythms of times and seasons, let us celebrate the mysteries of salvation.

Let us recall the year’s culmination, the Easter Triduum of the Lord: his Last Supper, his Crucifixion, his burial and his rising, celebrated between the evening of the 20th of March and the evening of the 23rd of March.

Each Easter-as on each Sunday-the Holy Church makes present the great and saving deed by which Christ has forever conquered sin and death.

From Easter are reckoned all the days we keep holy. Ash Wednesday, the beginning of Lent, will occur on the 6th of February. The Ascension of the Lord will be commemorated on the 1st (4th) of May. Pentecost, the joyful conclusion of the season of Easter, will be celebrated on the 11th of May. And, this year, the First Sunday of Advent will be on the 30th of November.

Likewise, the pilgrim Church proclaims the Passover of Christ in the feasts of the holy Mother or God, in the feasts of Apostles and Saints and in the commemoration of the faithful departed.

To Jesus Christ, who was, who is and who is to come, Lord of time and history, be endless praise for ever and ever. Amen.

This proclamation, which was chanted yesterday during the Solemn Mass of the Epiphany at the Vatican puts the liturgical year into perspective. Everything centers around the Paschal Triduum. From the dates of the Great Three Days are reckoned the days that the Church keeps holy.

This proclamation is very ancient and was used back when we didn’t have calendars as we know them now. I hope this helps.

 

[catharina]

Isa: Despite everything myself and various posters have explained to you on this thread you continue to insist that Latins tend to “focus on Mary” and exclude Christ. I would like to see your documentation for this claim. It’s possible that some individuals do this, but if so, they do no know the true Mary. My original statement stands: It is absolutely impossible to venerate Mary without drawing closer to Christ. Do not the Orthodox cry out “Holy Theotokos, save us!”. You would never catch a Latin saying this…so it goes both ways. (Btw, I am not criticizing the above referenced devotion, rather my point is that when not properly understood our respective devotions may appear to be strange to outsiders). Yes there are images of Mary without Christ. Many of our statues and icons of Mary do, however, indeed show her with the Holy Child. It is absurd, however, to suggest that it is wrong to depict Mary without the Christ Child. She is the Queen of Heaven and is to be venerated in that capacity as well. Mary serves as a model of the Church and of discipleship. She currently reigns as Queen of Heaven, and in that capacity Christ is fully grown and glorified, sitting at the right hand of the Father. She can’t always be depicted with the Christ-Child…that would an incomplete depiction of her vocation.

As for co-redemptrix, this term, while not a dogma, is perfectly true when understood correctly. Your own Orthodox Bishop Kallistos Ware, while opposed to the CC defining a new dogma, agrees that it is a correct description of Our Lady. (see cs.ust.hk/faculty/dimitris/metro/aug01/AUG01.html#ORTHOVIEW)
In Christ with Mary,
Tyler

twf - this post of yours is simply lovely. Thanks.

 

[puzzleannie]

Now to confuse you (not the intent, but I think that will be the result):

The Annunciation is a Marian feast, and if it falls on a weekday the DL is celebrated (in Lent DL is only celebrated on Saturday and Sunday).

If .

the name of this feast on the Roman calendar is “Annunciation of the Lord” yes Mary was the recipient of the message, but the big deal of the message was about Jesus.

the Assumption of the BVM (or Dormition) celebrates the action of Christ in bringing his Mother, body and soul, into heaven. It is primarily about Him. she is the recipient of the honor, but He is the actor.

 

[benedictgal]

the name of this feast on the Roman calendar is “Annunciation of the Lord” yes Mary was the recipient of the message, but the big deal of the message was about Jesus.

the Assumption of the BVM (or Dormition) celebrates the action of Christ in bringing his Mother, body and soul, into heaven. It is primarily about Him. she is the recipient of the honor, but He is the actor.

Furthermore, all of these solemnities are celebrated within the confines of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, which has as its end all and be all Jesus Christ, who offers Himself to God the Father in the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the ultimate source for everything is God, as the Epiphany Proclamation indicates.

 

[twf]

Isa: I also want to add these patristic quotes to the discussion:
St. Ephrem of Syria (d. 373): “After the Mediator thou art the mediatrix of the whole world” (Oratio IV ad Deiparam. 4th Lesson of the Office of the Feast).

St. Irenaeus (ca. AD 189): “Mary … by her obedience became the cause of her own salvation and the salvation of the whole human race.” (Adv. haer. III 22,4).

St. Germanus of Constantinople (d. 733): “Nobody can achieve salvation except through thee … O Most Holy One … nobody can receive a gift of grace except through thee … O Most Chast One” (Or. 9,5. Lesson of the Office of the Feast, cite by Ott, ibid., p. 214)

From a tenth-century English manuscript now at Salisbury:

Quote:
“Sancta Redemptrix Mundi, Sancta Salvatrix Mundi, ora pro nobis”

 

[porthos11]

Several points to be made.

1. All Marian feast days are about Christ. A Marian Holy Day of obligation tells us to attend Mass, which is 100% about Christ.
2. All Sundays of the year are days of obligation, and they are 100% about Christ.
3. Moreover, there are more days than you think about Christ, even if not Holy Days of obligation.

a. Christmas runs 8 days. (8)
b. Epiphany is exclusively about Christ (9).
c. The Holy Family is a Feast of the Lord (10).
d. The Baptism of the Lord ends Christmas (11)
e. Palm Sunday celebrates his triumphant entry (12)
f. The Sacred Triduum recalls his Passion, Death, and Resurrection (15)
g. Easter runs 8 days (23) (now exceeds the initial post of 17).
h. Ascension (24).
i. Pentecost (25).
j. Trinity Sunday (26).
k. Corpus Christi (27).
l. Sacred Heart (28).
m. Transfiguration (29)
n. Triumph of the Cross (30).
o. Christ the King (31).

So that’s at least 31 days in the year when the Church is celebrating some Mystery of Christ.

Moreover, all these are feasts and solemnities in the General Calendar. Most of the Marian “feasts” on the Calendar are just memorials.

The actual Marian feasts and solemnities are:

Mother of God (1, last day of the Octave of Christmas)
Holy Family (yes, it’s a Marian Feast too, as well as that of St. Joseph) (2).
Annunciation (actually a Christological feast, but play along) (3)
Assumption (4)
Immaculate Conception (5).
Our Lady of Guadalupe (US, also in the Philippines, and Mexico, I think) (6).

Did I miss anything?

There are memorials and optional memorials. Saturdays too are optional Marian memorials, but only during Ordinary Time (doesn’t beat EVERY Sunday for Jesus).

So what were we saying about more Marian feasts?

 

[thistle]

The local (national) councils of bishops have jurisdiction over the establishment of holy days of obligation. If the pastor at the parish in Switzerland told you that the feast of Mary the Mother of God is not observed as a day of obligation, then he is most likely telling you what the council of bishops has decided.

On a further note, I found this morning in the new calendar issued by my parish in the US, a list of no less than 17 Marian feasts on the liturgical calendar. Three of these are holy days of obligation in the US. We celebrate her parents for doing a good job raising her; we celebrate her conception and her presentation; we celebrate the announcement that she will bear the Messiah; we celebrate her visit to Elizabeth, her delivery of the Messiah and her membership in the Holy Family. We celebrate her assumption into heaven and her Queenship (of the Universe, Angels, Martyrs, Apostles, Saints, etc.). We celebrate her various apparitions at Lourdes, Lasalette, Fatima and Guadalupe. We celebrate her for her sorrows and the rosary. We also celebrate the dedication of the church dedicated to her in Rome (St. Mary Major). You would think that two or three celebrations would suffice but we get at least 18 by my count and two months dedicated to her (May and November). My biggest beef is that the Curialist had to steal Jesus’ Jewishness (Bris or circumcision) in order to put Mary the Mother of God in at January 1. Give me back the feast of the circumcision; we have more than enough Marian feasts.

Matthew

We have daily Masses which are about Christ and not Mary.

 

[Steve40]

Every Sunday is a required Feast of Jesus. Jesus crowned her as Queen and she is His Mom. Mary is the womb that bore us. It is important to remember where we have come from as we press on to the Wedding with our Spouse.