Why must God be only three persons?

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This is not at all a theological answer but simply my own way of seeing the trinity in the world. Psychology tells us we have three states of being: the parent ego state, the adult, and the child. This is transactional analysis. We have within us the reflection of the holy trinity in terms of the parent/father, the adult/Holy Spirit, and the child/son.

Again human relationships are often triangulated with one person acting as the victim another the perpetrator and the third the rescuer. This triangulation is common between a child and its parents. The holy trinity is three persons all acting in unity - perfect love. In real life we hurt each other and need to forgive each other because we are selfish. The holy trinity is unselfish with three distinct persons. Human relationships and the human psyche all reflect a trinity. We are made in the image and likeness of God.

Please don’t quote me on this - it is simply my way of experiencing myself and my human relationships as reflections of God.
 
As I understand it:

The Father is God.
Even prior to any acts of creation, the Father has an idea of himself. Being God, the Father’s idea of himself is so perfect, that it manifests as the second person (of the Trinity).
The Father and the Son relate to each other, love each other. Their love relationship is so perfect that it manifests as the third person (of the Trinity), the Holy Spirit.

If I’ve understood this correctly (and related it correctly): What would you propose for a fourth person?

tee
 
why must God be only 3 persons…?
because that’s the way He planned it. our human minds can try, try, try
to understand our Mysterious God, who decided to come to earth as one of us.
so that by His actions we have a tangible being we can relate to. Except He
was so far ahead of us in thought, word, and deed, and Love…that we still
often don’t ‘get it’…then before He left us gave us His Blessed Mother
so we could have help. and still, knowing our weaknesses, left us the Holy
Spirit, in so many, many ways…“ask and you shall receive”…
my own thoughts…
 
Actually according to Catholic theology the three persons of the Holy Trinity existed all together at the beginning of time - I.e. Jesus is the Word - both in the Gospel of John and Genesis. All three persons are created out of nothing. There were some hereseys that claimed otherwise. So it’s a slippery slope to state that any particular person of the holy trinity was from another person of the trinity or that they came into existence at different times. I am no expert on this, nor do I care to debate it. I just know what was the right answer for my theology classes.
 
that’s all He let us know about… “baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit…”
 
Because He said so. He always was, is, and will be so. No sudden intro of a “New God on the Block” to make Him the Fab Four, the Five Alive, etc. ’

Catechism of the Catholic Church:
** IN BRIEF **
261 The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of the Christian faith and of Christian life. God alone can make it known to us by revealing himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
262 The Incarnation of God’s Son reveals that God is the eternal Father and that the Son is consubstantial with the Father, which means that, in the Father and with the Father the Son is one and the same God.
263 The mission of the Holy Spirit, sent by the Father in the name of the Son (*Jn *14:26) and by the Son “from the Father” (*Jn *15:26), reveals that, with them, the Spirit is one and the same God. “With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified” (Nicene Creed).
264 “The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father as the first principle and, by the eternal gift of this to the Son, from the communion of both the Father and the Son” (St. Augustine, De Trin. 15, 26, 47: PL 42, 1095).
265 By the grace of Baptism “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”, we are called to share in the life of the Blessed Trinity, here on earth in the obscurity of faith, and after death in eternal light (cf. Paul VI, CPG § 9).
266 “Now this is the Catholic faith: We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity, without either confusing the persons or dividing the substance; for the person of the Father is one, the Son’s is another, the Holy Spirit’s another; but the Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal” (Athanasian Creed: DS 75; ND 16).
267 Inseparable in what they are, the divine persons are also inseparable in what they do. But within the single divine operation each shows forth what is proper to him in the Trinity, especially in the divine missions of the Son’s Incarnation and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
 
tee_eff_em said:
As I understand it:

The Father is God.
Even prior to any acts of creation, the Father has an idea of himself. Being God, the Father’s idea of himself is so perfect, that it manifests as the second person (of the Trinity).
The Father and the Son relate to each other, love each other. Their love relationship is so perfect that it manifests as the third person (of the Trinity), the Holy Spirit.

If I’ve understood this correctly (and related it correctly): What would you propose for a fourth person?

tee
Click to expand...
This is exactly the way I’ve heard it explained and it makes sense to me. There is perfection in the number three. To add another would be totally unnecessary and less than perfect.
 
The Blessed Trinity cannot be known in this life apodictically; Divine revelation is necessary. Still, we can use analogical reasoning:

“If God is not a Trinity, God is not love. For love requires three things: a lover, a beloved, and a relationship between them. If God were only one person, he could be a lover, but not love itself. The Father loves the Son and the Son loves the Father, and the Spirit is the love proceeding from both, from all eternity. If that were not so, then God would need us, would be incomplete without us, without someone to love. Then his creating us would not be wholly unselfish, but selfish, from his own need.”
  • Dr. Peter Kreeft
 
chaplainmom said:
Actually according to Catholic theology the three persons of the Holy Trinity existed all together at the beginning of time - I.e. Jesus is the Word - both in the Gospel of John and Genesis. All three persons are created out of nothing. There were some hereseys that claimed otherwise. So it’s a slippery slope to state that any particular person of the holy trinity was from another person of the trinity or that they came into existence at different times. I am no expert on this, nor do I care to debate it. I just know what was the right answer for my theology classes.
Click to expand...
There’s even heresy here already, although I’m certain it’s unintentional.

None of the Divine Persons were created. They have “always” existed and are in fact existence itself.

But there is indeed a generation but we must understand that this is eternal, not in time.

The Father is ungenerated.
The Son is generated from the Father.
The Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.
 
LogisticsBranch said:
You may like to read what I have written on page 3 and 4. This is how I understand God and his existence::

BENEDICT XVI
ANGELUS
Solemnity of the Most Holy Trinity
Saint Peter’s Square
Sunday, 7 June 2009
Dear Brothers and Sisters,

After the Easter Season which culminated in the Feast of Pentecost, the liturgy provides for these three Solemnities of the Lord: today, Trinity Sunday; next Thursday, Corpus Christi which in many countries, including Italy, will be celebrated next Sunday; and finally, on the following Friday, the Feast of the Sacred Heart of Jesus. Each one of these liturgical events highlights a perspective by which the whole mystery of the Christian faith is embraced: and that is, respectively the reality of the Triune God, the Sacrament of the Eucharist and the divine and human centre of the Person of Christ. These are truly aspects of the one mystery of salvation which, in a certain sense, sum up the whole itinerary of the revelation of Jesus, from his Incarnation to his death and Resurrection and, finally, to his Ascension and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Today we contemplate the Most Holy Trinity as Jesus introduced us to it. He revealed to us that God is love “not in the oneness of a single Person, but in the Trinity of one substance” (Preface). He is the Creator and merciful Father; he is the Only-Begotten Son, eternal Wisdom incarnate, who died and rose for us; he is the Holy Spirit who moves all things, cosmos and history, toward their final, full recapitulation. Three Persons who are one God because the Father is love, the Son is love, the Spirit is love. God is wholly and only love, the purest, infinite and eternal love. He does not live in splendid solitude but rather is an inexhaustible source of life that is ceaselessly given and communicated. To a certain extent we can perceive this by observing both the macro-universe: our earth, the planets, the stars, the galaxies; and the micro-universe: cells, atoms, elementary particles. The “name” of the Blessed Trinity is, in a certain sense, imprinted upon all things because all that exists, down to the last particle, is in relation; in this way we catch a glimpse of God as relationship and ultimately, Creator Love. All things derive from love, aspire to love and move impelled by love, though naturally with varying degrees of awareness and freedom. “O Lord, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth!” (Ps 8: 1) the Psalmist exclaims. In speaking of the “name”, the Bible refers to God himself, his truest identity. It is an identity that shines upon the whole of Creation, in which all beings for the very fact that they exist and because of the “fabric” of which they are made point to a transcendent Principle, to eternal and infinite Life which is given, in a word, to Love. “In him we live and move and have our being”, St Paul said at the Areopagus of Athens (Acts 17: 28). The strongest proof that we are made in the image of the Trinity is this: love alone makes us happy because we live in a relationship, and we live to love and to be loved. Borrowing an analogy from biology, we could say that imprinted upon his “genome”, the human being bears a profound mark of the Trinity, of God as Love.

The Virgin Mary, in her docile humility, became the handmaid of divine Love: she accepted the Father’s will and conceived the Son by the power of the Holy Spirit. In her the Almighty built a temple worthy of him and made her the model and image of the Church, mystery and house of communion for all human beings. May Mary, mirror of the Blessed Trinity, help us to grow in faith in the Trinitarian mystery.
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/angelus/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_ang_20090607_en.html

Pope Benedict XVI in the Angelus said on February 13, 2011, “Dear friends, perhaps it is not by chance that Jesus’ first great preaching is called the “Sermon on the Mount”! Moses went up Mount Sinai to receive the Law of God and bring it to the Chosen People. Jesus is the Son of God himself who came down from Heaven to lead us to Heaven, to God’s height, on the way of love. Indeed, he himself is this way; all we have to do in order to put into practice God’s will and to enter his Kingdom, eternal life, is to follow him.” vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/angelus/2011/documents/hf_ben-xvi_ang_20110213_en.html

Also, “The Church professes from the very beginning her faith in the “Almighty Father,” creator of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. She does so in the light of the self-revelation of God who “spoke by the prophets and in these last days…by his Son” (Heb 1:1-2). This omnipotent God is also omniscient and omnipresent. Or better, one could say that, as an infinitely perfect spirit, God is simultaneously Omnipotence, Omniscience and Omnipresence. God is first of all present to himself—in his One” vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19850918en.html
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It’s important to note a few things:
  1. Just because a person of the Godhead has not been revealed as such yet doesn’t mean he won’t later be revealed as such in the future.
  2. Assuming that the Messiah as spelled out in the Old Testament is Jesus, Son of God, then it must be noted that the Messiah was not presented as being a member of the Godhead until the New Testament. Interpretation by Jews both then and now had the Messiah as human and not divine. It’s quite possible such a fourth (or fifth, or sixth) person of the Godhead has been described in such a manner.
  3. Twice in the Old Testament there is a mention of The Holy Spirit. For some time “Holy Spirit” was thought of as either a term to describe God the Father’s power or an entity acting on God’s behalf. It was only later that he was considered part of the Godhead. Just like with the Messiah, person there is a spiritual entity that has been described to us but not yet reveal as being part of the Godhead.
  4. Any analogies to show that the Godhead is a Trinity can’t just be some thing or concept with three discrete things in it. It has to be analogous for it to be an analogy, meaning that it has to show how each component works in the way the Trinity does. The most difficult part is to show how each component is a part of the whole, while at the same time not fall into partialism. Each component must be the thing or concept as a whole, just as God, Jesus, and The Holy Spirit are each wholly God.
 
First off the previous statement I made was here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=537156&page=5

To: Mike from NJ as noted and hard copied by me. Mike states: Religion: atheist

Ahhh Mike, I didn’t realize that you belong to a religion. WOW! LOL !! I can’t stop laughing! God help me.😃 There are over 40 Nobel Prize winners on the Pontifical Academy of Sciences. None of those Nobel Prize winners attack religious people. Here is the President of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences:
Contemplation on the Relations Between Science and Faith by by Prof. Werner Arber (University of Basel, Switzerland – President of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences) to the Holy Father, and to the members of the Synod of Bishops on 12 October 2012 on “The New Evangelization for the Transmission of the Christian Faith”. [You can read what he says online.] casinapioiv.va/content/accademia/en/academicians/ordinary/arber/contemplation.html

Also, I just read Turning the Tables on Atheists
(Part 1)
Author Patrick Madrid Discusses “The Godless Delusion”
zenit.org/articles/turning-the-tables-on-atheists-part-1/

Turning the Tables on Atheists (Part 2)
Author Patrick Madrid Discusses “The Godless Delusion”
zenit.org/articles/turning-the-tables-on-atheists-part-2/

Care to comment?
 
That is the way God designed it. “In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit…”
 
LogisticsBranch said:
First off the previous statement I made was here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=537156&page=5

To: Mike from NJ as noted and hard copied by me. Mike states: Religion: atheist

Ahhh Mike, I didn’t realize that you belong to a religion. WOW! LOL !! I can’t stop laughing! God help me.😃
Click to expand...
I must admit being a bit surprised. You’ve made over 400 posts on CAF, joined almost 5 years ago, and this is the first time you’ve seen any poster have the word “atheist” above one of his or her posts? There are more than a few of us 'round these parts 😉

As far as putting the word “atheist” on my bio under religion, it’s pretty commonplace. It’s like someone putting “bald” under the category of hair color or “unemployed” under the category of occupation.

Still, if I’ve made you laugh I’ve done a better job than Jeff Dunham.

With regards to the Patrick Madrid interview that you’d like me to respond to, it’s very off-topic for this thread (which I have a lot to say about). But if you open a separate ticket regarding that interview I will be more than happy to respond with a point-by-point breakdown on it.

Back to the topic!
 
tee_eff_em said:
As I understand it:

The Father is God.
Even prior to any acts of creation, the Father has an idea of himself. Being God, the Father’s idea of himself is so perfect, that it manifests as the second person (of the Trinity).
The Father and the Son relate to each other, love each other. Their love relationship is so perfect that it manifests as the third person (of the Trinity), the Holy Spirit.

If I’ve understood this correctly (and related it correctly): What would you propose for a fourth person?

tee
Click to expand...
I’m no expert on the Trinity but it sounds to me as though you have separated two manifestations of G-d from G-d the Father, perhaps unintentionally. When you state the Father is G-d and then manifestations derive from the Father, you seem to be saying that the other Persons succeeded the Father, and I’m not sure this is correct according to Catholic (or Christian) doctrine. What do you mean by “manifestations”?
 
Mike_from_NJ said:
LogisticsBranch;13598630:
First off the previous statement I made was here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=537156&page=5
Click to expand...
To: Mike from NJ as noted and hard copied by me. Mike states: Religion: atheist

Ahhh Mike, I didn’t realize that you belong to a religion. WOW! LOL !! I can’t stop laughing! God help me.😃 There are over 40 Nobel Prize winners on the Pontifical Academy of Sciences. None of those Nobel Prize winners attack religious people. Here is the President of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences:
Contemplation on the Relations Between Science and Faith by by Prof. Werner Arber (University of Basel, Switzerland – President of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences) to the Holy Father, and to the members of the Synod of Bishops on 12 October 2012 on “The New Evangelization for the Transmission of the Christian Faith”. [You can read what he says online.] casinapioiv.va/content/accademia/en/academicians/ordinary/arber/contemplation.html

Also, I just read Turning the Tables on Atheists
(Part 1)
Author Patrick Madrid Discusses “The Godless Delusion”
zenit.org/articles/turning-the-tables-on-atheists-part-1/

Turning the Tables on Atheists (Part 2)
Author Patrick Madrid Discusses “The Godless Delusion”
zenit.org/articles/turning-the-tables-on-atheists-part-2/

Care to comment?

I must admit being a bit surprised. You’ve made over 400 posts on CAF, joined almost 5 years ago, and this is the first time you’ve seen any poster have the word “atheist” above one of his or her posts? There are more than a few of us 'round these parts 😉

As far as putting the word “atheist” on my bio under religion, it’s pretty commonplace. It’s like someone putting “bald” under the category of hair color or “unemployed” under the category of occupation.

Still, if I’ve made you laugh I’ve done a better job than Jeff Dunham.

With regards to the Patrick Madrid interview that you’d like me to respond to, it’s very off-topic for this thread (which I have a lot to say about). But if you open a separate ticket regarding that interview I will be more than happy to respond with a point-by-point breakdown on it.

Back to the topic!
Click to expand...
I am on this topic. In God WE TRUST! Do you think the lawsuit atheists are now presenting are attempting to declare their religion is atheism?
 
Mike_from_NJ said:
With regards to the Patrick Madrid interview that you’d like me to respond to, it’s very off-topic for this thread (which I have a lot to say about). But if you open a separate ticket regarding that interview I will be more than happy to respond with a point-by-point breakdown on it.
Click to expand...
I’ll keep a look out for that. It’ll be fun. It won’t be pretty but it’ll be fun.
 
porthos11 said:
There’s even heresy here already, although I’m certain it’s unintentional.

None of the Divine Persons were created. They have “always” existed and are in fact existence itself.

But there is indeed a generation but we must understand that this is eternal, not in time.

The Father is ungenerated.
The Son is generated from the Father.
The Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.
Click to expand...
Speaking for myself, I am limited to writing one sentence after another.

But just because I am so and did not state explicitly does not mean I meant to imply anything other than that the Father is eternal God, the Son is God eternally begotten of the Father, and that the Spirit is God eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.

tee
 
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