Why must God be only three persons?

[PumpkinCookie]

The reason has been provided and rejected.

Good, so you agree then, that there is no good reason to suppose the persons of God are limited to three right? If not, why not?

 

[Aloysium]

Why does the creed exclude the possibility? Explain your reasoning. I will agree that it affirms belief in three persons of God, but it also does not seem to contradict the possibility of more persons. . .

I don’t understand this sort of thinking.
The Creed reveals the truth.
Something is what it is and someone asks why it can’t be something else.
Ah, because it isn’t; it is what it is, eternally in fact.
Why must there be only three person? Because that is The Truth, Reality; the Godhead is Triune.
Musts do not enter the picture other in that this is what is and therefore how it must be.

 

[guanophore]

Why does the creed exclude the possibility? Explain your reasoning. I will agree that it affirms belief in three persons of God, but it also does not seem to contradict the possibility of more persons.

Clem has just addressed this perfectly in the post above. The Church produces such doctrinal statements to clarify what was left to her in the Revelation of God by Himself to the Apostles. The Church has the duty to keep the faithful from falling into error, so statements are made to exclude whatever heresy is running rampant requiring that the declaration must be made. At the time, the issue was Arianism.

The Church does not make any doctrinal declarations to address wild speculations that may appear 1500 or so years later. Since Christians have always accepted the Nicaean Creed as both inclusive and exclusive, there is no need for further declarations. There is also no room for the faithful to speculate about future public revelation that would contradict the Creed, since what was bound on earth has already been bound in heaven.

Thousands of people affirmed the early Christian creeds and also believed that Mother Ann Lee was the second coming of Christ. If the matter were so simple, why didn't these people just reject her with the same assertion you put forward?

Just like you, everyone is free to reject what God has revealed. You, too, can embrace Mother Ann Lee as a member of the Godhead. There is nothing that compels human beings to accept what God has revealed about HImself, and we all have been given the gift of free will and imagination, so creativity can abide.

Right now millions of people believe the Holy Spirit is an African dude living in the Democratic Republic of Congo. [bbc.com/news/magazine-33476886](http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33476886)

Fascinating. It is the first I have heard of it. I affirm their right, as I affirm yours, to reject what God has revealed. Orthodox Christians cannot accept such things because we believe public revelation ceased at the death of the last Apostle.

Clearly, Christianity is vulnerable to the seemingly limitless addition of persons of God.

I suppose that depends upon how you define “Christianity”. For those who embrace what the Apostles believed and taught, this is not an option. We are not at liberty to add or subtract anything from the once for all divine deposit of faith kept infallibly in the Church by the Holy Spirit.

On the other hand, those who reject the One Faith do seem to have a limitless addition not only of persons in the godhead, but other doctrines as well. There seem to be almost as many denominations as there are belly buttons.

I’d argue that even the most rigid understandings of Catholicism are vulnerable in that there are no precise and unequivocal rejections of further “developments” in understanding the nature of God.

Development of our understanding about the nature of God is the opposite of a vulnerability. On the contrary, we daily seek to study and know our faith more deeply so that our understanding of it can grow. Rather than making us vulnerable, it strengthens us spiritually and mentally.

Show us the reason. Answer the question. By not answering, you are affirming that there is no REASON God must be only three person.

I am affirming that you have a right to believe this, and I am conceding that the “evidence” upon which our reasoning is based does not meet scientific rigor. It also cannot prove a negative, and makes no effort to exclude imaginitive speculations.

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.” Genesis 1:1-2

The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.” Psalm 110:1

 

[PumpkinCookie]

I don’t understand this sort of thinking.
Something is what it is and someone asks why it can’t be something else.
Ah, because it isn’t; it is what it is.
Why must there be only three person? Because that is The Truth, Reality; the Godhead is Triune.
Musts do not enter the picture other in that this is what is and therefore how it must be.

I don’t understand this sort of thinking.
Something is what it is and someone asks why it can’t be something else.
Ah, because it isn’t; it is what it is.
Why must there be only any number of person? Because that is The Truth, Reality; the Godhead is any number of persons.
Musts do not enter the picture other in that this is what is and therefore how it must be.

If I can substitute an arbitrary number in for “three” and submit your comment back to you, it should alert you to a problem in the reasoning used here. It can be used to defend the belief in any number of gods or no god at all! Look:

I don’t understand this sort of thinking.
Something is what it is and someone asks why it can’t be something else.
Ah, because it isn’t; it is what it is.
Why must there be no God? Because that is The Truth, Reality; there are no gods.
Musts do not enter the picture other in that this is what is and therefore how it must be.

See? Un-reasoned assertions can support anything, and therefore they support nothing.

 

[guanophore]

Good, so you agree then, that there is no good reason to suppose the persons of God are limited to three right? If not, why not?

There are many good reasons for those who have accepted what God has revealed about himself, but yes, for those who reject this, there is no reason not to invent, speculate, imagine and let one’s creative juices go wild.

The faith is only binding on those who have received and accepted it. Those who are outside of it, separated from knowing God the Father through Jesus His Son, as revealed by the Holy Spirit, have no obligation to this relationship.

"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

Daniel 7:13, 14:

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Un-reasoned assertions can support anything, and therefore they support nothing.

Take it or leave it, is what people keep telling you.
What can I say?
The truth has been revealed through the church by the grace of the Holy Spirit.
You can either listen or go your own way.
Clearly, you are unhappy with all the stuff you mind puts out.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

There are many good reasons for those who have accepted what God has revealed about himself, but yes, for those who reject this, there is no reason not to invent, speculate, imagine and let one’s creative juices go wild.

The faith is only binding on those who have received and accepted it. Those who are outside of it, separated from knowing God the Father through Jesus His Son, as revealed by the Holy Spirit, have no obligation to this relationship.

"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

Daniel 7:13, 14:

There are many good reasons for those who have accepted what God has revealed about himself, but yes, for those who reject this, there is no reason not to invent, speculate, imagine and let one’s creative juices go wild.

The faith is only binding on those who have received and accepted it. Those who are outside of it, separated from knowing God the Father through the Torah of Moses, have no obligation to this relationship.

“Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one.” Deuteronomy 6:4

Quoting scriptures and tossing empty assertions back and forth is not philosophy my friend.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Take it or leave it, is what people keep telling you.
What can I say?
The truth has been revealed through the church by the grace of the Holy Spirit.
You can either listen or go your own way.
Clearly, you are unhappy with all the stuff you mind puts out.

Take it or leave it, is what people keep telling you.
What can I say?
The truth has been revealed through the Torah by God.
You can either listen or go your own way.
Clearly, you are unhappy with all the stuff you mind puts out.

If I can take your statements and make them work for me just as well as they work for you, we have come to the aporia of un-reason and are accomplishing nothing.

 

[Gorgias]

Take it or leave it, is what people keep telling you.
What can I say?
The truth has been revealed through the Torah by God.
You can either listen or go your own way.
Clearly, you are unhappy with all the stuff you mind puts out.

If I can take your statements and make them work for me just as well as they work for you, we have come to the aporia of un-reason and are accomplishing nothing.

Except that there’s a fatal flaw to your reasoning: God has said what we assert, but He hasn’t said what you’re asserting. So, you can play Mad-libs all you want… but that doesn’t make your claim rise to the level of Divine Revelation.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . If I can take your statements and make them work for me just as well as they work for you, we have come to the aporia of un-reason and are accomplishing nothing.

Yes, you are good at playing with ideas.
However, Christ is the Light, by whom all is made clear.
You’re going at this backwards.

 

[davidv]

Good, so you agree then, that there is no good reason to suppose the persons of God are limited to three right? If not, why not?

No I don’t agree. Rejection does not imply that the reason was bad, particularly if the rejection was not rational.

 

[clem456]

We can talk about whether or not it is impossible to prove or disprove something like bilocation, but first I’m going to ask you to confirm that I’m right: there is no reason to suppose it is impossible for there to be more than three persons of God. You agree with me, since you’re changing the subject, right?

If not, why not?

Providing an analogy is not changing the subject.

Ok let’s discuss:
There is good reason to suppose that God is Triune.
I gave mine here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13642742&postcount=150

What do you think?
God is love, can’t be only 1 person and be love.
God is simple, he is not an orgy.
God is fruitful, Holy Spirit.
3.
More than 3 and God wouldn’t be simple. If God was only 2 he wouldn’t be fruitful in the Spirit. If he was only 1 he couldn’t be love.
That’s the reasoning.
What do you think? You might disagree but it’s pretty hard to refute the reason behind it.

The triune God is also an article of faith. Faith illumines reason. Without some kind of faith you have no reason.

 

[Della]

In the title.

I’m just entering this multi-paged, so maybe someone has brought this up already…

We believe God is a triune person because he revealed himself as that. It’s that simple. After all, God ought to know who and what he is. If he doesn’t, who does?

 

[rinnie]

This is not at all a theological answer but simply my own way of seeing the trinity in the world. Psychology tells us we have three states of being: the parent ego state, the adult, and the child. This is transactional analysis. We have within us the reflection of the holy trinity in terms of the parent/father, the adult/Holy Spirit, and the child/son.

Again human relationships are often triangulated with one person acting as the victim another the perpetrator and the third the rescuer. This triangulation is common between a child and its parents. The holy trinity is three persons all acting in unity - perfect love. In real life we hurt each other and need to forgive each other because we are selfish. The holy trinity is unselfish with three distinct persons. Human relationships and the human psyche all reflect a trinity. We are made in the image and likeness of God.

Please don’t quote me on this - it is simply my way of experiencing myself and my human relationships as reflections of God.

I think we can all find a way to relate God into three. I always see it as being revealed to us as the Father in the Old Test. Someone a bit stern but loving in the same sense.

I see God as the Son as a relationship we can see and relate to much more. Beings that he came to us as GOD in a human form. As well as Divine,

I see the Holy Spirit as God in the world today. While we all know it can reveal himself any way that he chooses, he choose to reveal himself to us each personally in our hearts. That is how he relates to us today. As well as in the Eucharist in the Church.

Sometimes I see him as the Eucharist, not that this is a teaching of the Church, (as part of the Trinity of Course). But the Eucharist is a part of God that comes down here and now to earth every day for us to become one with him.

We see the Eucharist as the living Christ in the Church. That is another way that I believe that God revealed himself to us. In the form of simple bread that becomes the most precious thing on earth, Christ himself.

But I believe that God can reveal himself anyway he chooses.

 

[tonyrey]

I think we can all find a way to relate God into three. I always see it as being revealed to us as the Father in the Old Test. Someone a bit stern but loving in the same sense.

I see God as the Son as a relationship we can see and relate to much more. Beings that he came to us as GOD in a human form. As well as Divine,

I see the Holy Spirit as God in the world today. While we all know it can reveal himself any way that he chooses, he choose to reveal himself to us each personally in our hearts. That is how he relates to us today. As well as in the Eucharist in the Church.

Sometimes I see him as the Eucharist, not that this is a teaching of the Church, (as part of the Trinity of Course). But the Eucharist is a part of God that comes down here and now to earth every day for us to become one with him.

We see the Eucharist as the living Christ in the Church. That is another way that I believe that God revealed himself to us. In the form of simple bread that becomes the most precious thing on earth, Christ himself.

But I believe that God can reveal himself anyway he chooses.

Good points!

 

[guanophore]

Quoting scriptures and tossing empty assertions back and forth is not philosophy my friend.

You are right. And the Revelation by God of HImself is not philosophy either. Neither is it “empty assertion”.

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but it is God’s power to us who are being saved. For it is written: I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I will set aside the understanding of the experts. 20Where is the philosopher? Where is the scholar? Where is the debater of this age? Hasn’t God made the world’s wisdom foolish? 21For since, in God’s wisdom, the world did not know God through wisdom, God was pleased to save those who believe through the foolishness of the message preached. I Cor 1

Pumpkin, there were wise philosophers, debaters and those full of worldly wisdom (science) when Jesus walked the earth also. The position you are taking is nothing new. People have been doing it from the day this passage was written to the present. What has been revealed by God to us will seem like follishness and “empty assertion” to those who are perishing.

I’m just entering this multi-paged, so maybe someone has brought this up already…

We believe God is a triune person because he revealed himself as that. It’s that simple. After all, God ought to know who and what he is. If he doesn’t, who does?

Sorry Della, that is not an acceptable answer. :crying:

It is not based on human reason, philosphy, or science, so it is just “empty speculation and assumption”.

 

[tonyrey]

There are many good reasons for those who have accepted what God has revealed about himself, but yes, for those who reject this, there is no reason not to invent, speculate, imagine and let one’s creative juices go wild.

The faith is only binding on those who have received and accepted it. Those who are outside of it, separated from knowing God the Father through the Torah of Moses, have no obligation to this relationship.

“Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one.” Deuteronomy 6:4

Quoting scriptures and tossing empty assertions back and forth is not philosophy my friend.

“Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one.” Deuteronomy 6:4" is quoting scripture!

 

[tonyrey]

Take it or leave it, is what people keep telling you.
What can I say?
The truth has been revealed through the Torah by God.
You can either listen or go your own way.
Clearly, you are unhappy with all the stuff you mind puts out.

If I can take your statements and make them work for me just as well as they work for you, we have come to the aporia of un-reason and are accomplishing nothing.

What is the reason for accepting the Torah?

 

[PumpkinCookie]

What is the reason for accepting the Torah?

For me, I accept it as a something without a full explanation. There is contradictory evidence in the archaeological and genetic record, but I am willing to believe that God revealed himself to the Jews. I don’t believe in a single Adam and Eve or a world-wide flood, I don’t believe the Exodus really happened, I don’t suppose Moses himself wrote the whole thing, etc. I suspect God is much bigger and deeper than his portrayal in some of the scriptures. However, I think the basic morality makes sense, and I have an intuition about the existence of a divine being.

Idolatry harms us.
Murder harms us.
Lies harm us.
Covetousness harms us.
Cruelty to animals and the environment harms us.
Malformed sexual relationships harm us.

Is that a shaky foundation? Absolutely. This is why I don’t attempt to convert others or evangelize for my beliefs. I do not think God punishes us for having incorrect beliefs, so I have no motivation and I have no grounds.

I could always become an atheist if I become convinced that I have no good reasons for believing. You may think I have no good reasons for believing, but they’re good enough for me, for now.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

“Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one.” Deuteronomy 6:4" is quoting scripture!

Exactly, I am highlighting the pointlessness of throwing scriptures to and fro. Anyone can do it, and it proves nothing.